Rothfuss XV: Move along, nothing to see here

[Proudfeet]

8 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Ha, well, not knowing who Howard Stern is makes you probably lucky, but I digress. I do think there are people who will follow someone on social media that they hate just to, well, hate, but that's a much bigger discussion.

Who needs Howard Stern when you have Donald Trump? You don't even need to follow him, the news pushes it in your face. Unfortunate that he has actual authority though.

Anyway, on the discussion at hand, we just have to trawl through the previous threads to find who keeps baiting us with Rothfuss' posts and expose him/her.

 

[lysmonger]

So starting WW2 Kvothe parallels is nay or yay

[kuenjato]

On 5/29/2019 at 10:52 PM, Proudfeet said:

Agree with most of what you wrote, but I don't think that's fair. It's been awhile for me as well, but as I recall, he didn't do it with sex and he didn't "tame" her. He called her Name and conned her with some promise of a story. She's also just a normal person before the world split and is less goddess of sex and more long-lived supernatural human who has a reputation of being promiscuous. . 

The needlessly detailed and convoluted self-censored descriptions of sex and Kvothe's claim of superior sexual proficiency from then on does deserves all the scorn it gets but I think the above quote is a mischaracterisation. 

 

My own take on the popularity of the series is that it's just fortunate with timing and marketing, much like the cupcake, doughnut and other food fads. It's a decent product and viral word of mouth pushed it over the top. I got the book after seeing that it was recommended on this forum myself. 

This may be the case. I haven't read the books in 5 years, and on my re-read I skimmed the faesex stuff.

Faesexgoddess bleating about how Kvothe couldn't be a virgin 'cause he was just so.damn.good was incredible cringe, though -- penthouse forum fantasy, without the slightest hint at sarcasm.

[kuenjato]

On 5/29/2019 at 11:53 PM, Demetri said:

In many ways, he was at least as exotic to her as she was to him. Largely because she was generally effective in the way that a computer program might, with a targeted mission and guaranteed success within that mission. While it is gratuitous in much of it, it is not without substantive meaning Kvothe's arc. If I'm not mistaken either Bast/Elodin or both remark on his interaction with Felurian as being a transformative moment. I link Elodin into the conversation because he is so centered on the benchmark moments associated with growing this skill, though I think Bast was the one who brought us back to the present with a remark specifically regarding Felurian (books are in a different state  or I'd look it up.)

Either way it was definitely not my favorite part of his series. It is, however, precisely the sort of thing that a self-aggrandizing narrator (especially one tapping into his 17 year old self) would blow way out of proportion with improper focus such as on sex rather than the larger value of learning her name. There is a worthwhile argument that learning her name and related sexual awakening are integral in an adult learning their own name. The narrator spends an abundant amount of time explaining to the reader that the stories are going to be grander in the telling. While I think Rothfuss missed the mark in execution, why would we pretend that we weren't warned that such romantic reminiscence wasn't a thing. Taken too far? Sure. Totally gratuitious? Meh...

@kuenjato You've obviously read the series and I'm not one to try to dissect or place normative value on someone's approach or take on a book/work they've clearly experienced. But I have to ask, why the interest in KingKiller if you view it so pessimistically. And I do say pessimistically because I hope you're expressing displeasure and not holy judgment. I don't perceive the same fatal storytelling flaws that you do.

Furthermore, I think it is somewhat disingenuous or naive to indict world-building based on it feeling "slapped together" from other bits and pieces of works. That is not only inherent in stories, it is inherent in life. Any analysis of virtually any book would reveal derivative elements. It is, however, totally legitimate to say that it struck you in a certain way. But much like the prose, this is a subjective point that many disagreement. 

So once again, why do you bother with it? I'm honestly curious what you hope to gain beyond the somewhat unlikely (but not unsound either based on canon or Rothfuss's interviews, but still unlikely to the extreme you desire) event that Kvothe was only ever Kote and was either self-deceptive, flawed of memory or an outright liar (storyteller, Kvothe would argue)?

Sorry about not answering this earlier, I was on vacation this weekend.

I'm a writer myself, amateur through-and-through, and epic fantasy is one of the genres I toil in. I've also been reading it from my days as a wee nerdling, and the history of it, and how it has slowly changed to cultural norms, is one of the reasons why I've off-and-on followed the Kingkiller debacle, just as I follow from a distance other authors that didn't quite do it for me (like Erikson or Lynch) and authors that I've invested a lot of time into (like Bakker and GRRM). The story surrounding the trilogy, IMO, is more interesting than the books themselves: how their popularity describes genre-consumption trends; the author's pretty obvious issues -- professionally and personally -- when contrasted with his fandom's almost cultish adherence to their supposed quality; how Rothfuss seems to epitomize, as an artist, the pitfalls of sudden fame for one not equipped or in the very least ready to train for it; the fun in deconstructing the novels as basically personal wish-fulfillment sagas and how they reflect rather accurately the uneasy mentality of epic fantasy from its rather conservative origins to 00's-onward attempts to present regressive, fundamental spheres of existence (the medieval template) with progressive elements/viewpoints, attempted particularly in this series via a "feminist" "gloss" that actually feels pretty cartoonish and white-knightish (to the point that one could read it as subversion, or an accurate portrayal of incel angst, though that wasn't the actual intention, which makes it all the more funny--); etc. etc.

I also deeply respect Rothfuss for using his fame to establish a charity. That alone almost makes up for the underlying substandard quality of his series. Not enough that it doesn't deserve to be criticized, particularly as it stands as an influential text for its popularity.

 

[kuenjato]

On 5/30/2019 at 6:48 PM, The Marquis de Leech said:

Speaking as a writer myself, this is actually the entire point of writing, and one I cannot blame Rothfuss for. Writing is a con-job - all that counts is getting the reader to think we know what we're talking about (realistic-seeming falseness is better than unrealistic-seeming reality). For every Happy Ent, there will be a thousand people for whom that scene actually seemed plausible.

(To draw an analogy - Bernard Cornwell's early Saxon stories have a Viking character wearing black. I know why this is an error, but most readers don't, so it doesn't matter). 

I agree with this 100%, and every writer (who isn't a sociopath or a douche like Goodkind) has to struggle with the feeling of being a fraud. As a writer myself, it's just constant, even as we plug away and try to get better.

Problem with Kingkiller is, even in the first book there was just so much off-tone and shallow content, that immersion (for me) was damaged by the end. And the 2nd half of the 2nd book is mostly unintentional parody, it's so bad or mishandled or just cringy-strange.

[kuenjato]

1 hour ago, lysmonger said:

So starting WW2 Kvothe parallels is nay or yay

yay. I liked what you theorized above, and would like to see it expanded upon.

[The Marquis de Leech]

10 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

Well I guess its technically more Renaissance then medieval?

Renaissance-meets-D&D. That said, there would actually be something gloriously subversive about moving Kvothe's story to, say, a late nineteenth century setting. You could keep the snobby nobility, the University expenses, and the anti-Roma prejudice, and some of the music stuff would actually make sense, in terms of the audience expecting songs to follow scores. Stick it in a sort of Hammer Horror backwoods Central Europe, and you can even keep the supernatural shenanigans.  

[lysmonger]

On 6/5/2019 at 1:42 AM, The Marquis de Leech said:

Renaissance-meets-D&D. That said, there would actually be something gloriously subversive about moving Kvothe's story to, say, a late nineteenth century setting. You could keep the snobby nobility, the University expenses, and the anti-Roma prejudice, and some of the music stuff would actually make sense, in terms of the audience expecting songs to follow scores. Stick it in a sort of Hammer Horror backwoods Central Europe, and you can even keep the supernatural shenanigans.  

BETTER: KVOTHE ASSASSINATES ARCHDUKE FRANZ FERNAND 

[kuenjato]

So, on Twitter a couple days back, there was a fairly detailed conversation among some wokekeepers discussing how little blowback Rothfuss gets for his, er, problematic elements, with the conclusion drawn that 1) Rothfuss has a lot of friends/support in the industry, and 2) some -- Lindsey Ellis was mentioned -- tiptoe around the subject because of the spammy assholishness of Rothfuss's hardcore fans regarding any criticism.

In any case, this blog here was brought up -- https://blog.patrickrothfuss.com/2013/04/punctuation/

...and has it never come to light here? My god this man is a goon. 

Kvothe is a complete insert, folks. 

"...To understand her statement, you have to realize that I am the next stage in human evolution. My pheromonic musk is developed to the point where it’s practically a weapon. In the best of circumstances, I smell masculine. And on a day when I’m staying home and have skipped my morning shower…

Well…. suffice to say that you know there’s a man in the house, even if you can’t see me.

On top of that, I’d been writing. I don’t know why, but when I’m writing, my man-smell gets particularly strong. It’s like my body is trying to establish its dominance over reality itself.

The effects of this pheromonal cocktail vary, but with a select section of the female populous it has two profound, complimentary effects.

1. It delivers a message directly to the woman’s hindbrain, saying: THERE IS A MAN NEARBY, AND YOU MUST MATE WITH HIM.

2. It immediately drops the woman’s intelligence anywhere from 10-50 IQ points, which makes it hard for them to realize that mating with me is *obviously* a bad idea, while at the same time rendering them more vulnerable to my not inconsiderable charm."

 

Da girls become stupid and drop their panties when Rothfuss and his B.O. stroll into the room, yo. OMG. This goon is the gift that just keeps on.... giving.

[Rhom]

Ummm... I’m new to Rothfuss and have his books nearing the top of my To Be Read pile, so maybe I’ve missed something... but that blog post comes across completely as self mocking satire.  Is that not something that’s allowed anymore?

[kuenjato]

7 minutes ago, Rhom said:

Ummm... I’m new to Rothfuss and have his books nearing the top of my To Be Read pile, so maybe I’ve missed something... but that blog post comes across completely as self mocking satire.  Is that not something that’s allowed anymore?

There's a pattern.

https://jezebel.com/bestselling-fantasy-author-writes-icky-sexist-blog-post-5942221

And if you've read the books, the above Rothmusk post starts to make eerie correlation to his main character, a virgin who tames a Sex Goddess Succubus 'cause he's just so.damn.good the first time he gets into sexytime (oh, he sings to her too, so don't ha-rumph at me, Scott. The whole sequence is eye-rolling redonkulous.)

Tongue in cheek or not, Rothmusk is hilarious with all the other stuff in mind.

[Darth Richard II]

I stopped reading your post as soon as you said wokekeepers.

[sologdin]

My god this man is a goon. 

am more concerned about his ideology on orthography than on gender:

Quote

 

Semicolons are for wankers. Seriously. You can go your whole life without ever needing to really use a semicolon.

Unless you’re an academic, of course. If you’re an academic, you’ve got to use semicolon to impress other wankers with how much of a wanker you are so you can get your paper published. You know, that paper you wrote detailing your in-depth Marxist interpretation of the last eight lines of John Donne’s “The Flea?” The paper where you used the word “moreover” twenty-seven times in eleven pages?

 

i'd read that donne essay.

[kuenjato]

1 hour ago, Darth Richard II said:

I stopped reading your post as soon as you said wokekeepers.

why? it's handy as a summarizing phrase and it's not meant to be insulting. I came up with it because "semi-gatekeepers / trendsetters" was a bit long and overly elaborate.

Unless, of course, you take extreme identitarianism very, very seriously, and the phrase 'woke' cannot, repeat, cannot be used in jest.

The twitter thread itself was awesome/hilarious, tons of people being exposed to the Hobbit comparison for the very first time in 2019.

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, sologdin said:

My god this man is a goon. 

am more concerned about his ideology on orthography than on gender:

i'd read that donne essay.

We use semi colons because they are useful.  It's agonizing, reading original documents before various brilliant scholars and writers invented capital letters, punctuation and paragraphs.  However, the Rothfusses of the world are not scholars nor are they researchers with true knowledge of anything.  The proof of that is all over his book.  His writing that is music oriented, for just one example, proves he knows nothing at all about how to read to music, how to play music, how to perform music or even how to listen to music, which latter, puleeze, a baby can do.  Even parrots know how to listen to music, find the rhythm and dance.

 

 

 

[kuenjato]

2 hours ago, sologdin said:

My god this man is a goon. 

am more concerned about his ideology on orthography than on gender:

i'd read that donne essay.

The man is a philistine. Cormac McCarthy also disdains semi-colons, an attitude that strikes me as odd, as they help give prose variety and are useful for emphasizing details without an over-reliance on dashes, or, God Help Me Bakker, italics.

[Darth Richard II]

Oh, the wages of being a mother!

[Darth Richard II]

ahem, anyway, I;'e been beating the Rothfuss is a creepy misogynist pig drum for years now. You'll are late to the party.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

7 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

I stopped reading your post as soon as you said wokekeepers.

I was curious about “wokekeepers” too.

[kuenjato]

52 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I was curious about “wokekeepers” too.

"Woke" denotes privilege, to possess the time, inclination, wealth or supportive resources, intellect and/or connections, to not be "asleep." It implies elitism, exclusivity; a vaguely dubious measurement of implied and attained virtue (but "measure is unceasing"), alongside an explicit othering of those "unwoke." In the very least, one who is woke has the privilege to spend time on the internet, describing these tenuous lines.

The keepers of the Woke dwell at the usual loci of online social congress, continually redefining and redistributing the wages of virtue to those worthy and those to be scorned. 

What's of much more interest, though, was the fact that wokekeepers like Lindsey Ellis are frightened to deliver exposes of the Kingkiller, in that doing so might damage their cachet among the stern hordes of the Rothmusk fandom. Censorship and self-doubt ever nips at the heels of the over-woke.