The Book of The Kingsguard - Help Me Decide

[The Map Guy]

Brienne should of wrote this in the White Book:

Ser Jaime slayed King Aerys II that set the path to make Robert Baratheon the King of the Seven Kingdoms.

Ser Jaime pushed Brandon Stark out of a tower, that lead the cripple boy on a magical journey that eventually made him King of the Six Kingdoms.

He was Ser Jaime "Goldenhand" Lannister, the Kingmaker.

(Sorry Ser Criston Cole)

[Apoplexy]

18 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. I interpreted as some people are too far gone to be fully redeemable, and if he is addicted to Cersei, as opposed to actually loving her, then it makes even more sense. There are many people who struggle with addiction who are otherwise good people, but their addiction is too strong and they are never able to overcome it.

It was a sad ending for Jaime, but I don't think it was due to poor writing.

I have to respect your opinion. that's the beauty of opinions, we all get one. But I wholeheartedly disagree. I know people with addictions never overcome them sometimes. But in the specific case of Jaime Lannister, there was a 7 season build up leading to his breaking free of that addiction. He even left cersei knowing she was pregnant. And I also know people can relapse. But Jaime wasn't shown to go back and forth throughout 7.5 seasons. 

which is why putting back to where he began was done just for shock value and extremely poor writing imo.

[Apoplexy]

25 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

There’s a new one. How did Ned need to die to fulfill his arc with respect to RR? Or Catelyn or Robb?

 

Again, I never said that. Let me repeat for clarity, Ned was central in RR. Full stop. He wasn't central to the events of 298 AC. In 298 AC, his role from the beginning was to die, with his death being the catalyst for the war of the 5 kings.

Now will you answer my question about Jaime? How did Jaime seal victory for RR? Why does he need to die wrt to RR?

30 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

 

maybe the problem is that you think there’s something called an arc that’s different from the things that the characters do. 

Maybe you could recommend a good dictionary to me??

[SansaJonRule]

3 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I have to respect your opinion. that's the beauty of opinions, we all get one. But I wholeheartedly disagree. I know people with addictions never overcome them sometimes. But in the specific case of Jaime Lannister, there was a 7 season build up leading to his breaking free of that addiction. He even left cersei knowing she was pregnant. And I also know people can relapse. But Jaime wasn't shown to go back and forth throughout 7.5 seasons. 

which is why putting back to where he began was done just for shock value and extremely poor writing imo.

I see where you're coming from regarding having invested several seasons in Jaime's redemption arc. (I didn't LIKE it; it made me very sad.) But he didn't actually leave Cersei until the end of S7, so I guess that's why I interpret it the way I do. If he had left her say, three seasons ago, I expect I would feel the same as you do.

I like your screen name.

[Forlong the Fat]

3 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Again, I never said that. Let me repeat for clarity, Ned was central in RR. Full stop. He wasn't central to the events of 298 AC. In 298 AC, his role from the beginning was to die, with his death being the catalyst for the war of the 5 kings.

Now will you answer my question about Jaime? How did Jaime seal victory for RR? Why does he need to die wrt to RR?

Maybe you could recommend a good dictionary to me??

It’s not in my arc to explain these things. 

[Apoplexy]

13 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

I see where you're coming from regarding having invested several seasons in Jaime's redemption arc. (I didn't LIKE it; it made me very sad.) But he didn't actually leave Cersei until the end of S7, so I guess that's why I interpret it the way I do. If he had left her say, three seasons ago, I expect I would feel the same as you do.

I like your screen name.

For me there was 7 seasons of him gradually moving farther and farther away from cersei. Why put in that much time and effort  behind a nothingburger? Had he not left KL and died with cersei, id be less mad because then at least it would be in character (somehwhat).

And thanks! It aptly describes my current state

 

[Apoplexy]

16 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

It’s not in my arc to explain these things. 

Good day to you then. Come back anytime. My enlightenment services are free as always.

[SansaJonRule]

20 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

It’s not in my arc to explain these things. 

That stinks of a cop-out to me.

[Forlong the Fat]

8 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

That stinks of a cop-out to me.

I guess I was written poorly. 

[Haus Berlin]

"What unites people? (...) Stories." Stories, not the exact truth are Westeros' new glue, if you follow Tyrion's thoughts - who turns out to be the first victim of just that method, see Penrose's history book "A Song of Ice and Fire". The White Book makes up for that loss of recognition, only to introduce Tyrion as Kingslayer of King Joffrey, written in Jaime's own hand.

Since King Tommen removed Jaime from the Kingsguard, this would have been the end of Jaime's possible deeds. But under Brienne's touch the White Book becomes a book of white lies:

 

- She obscures the timeline so that Jaime wasn't there to prevent Joffrey's murder when she sets his capture at the Whispering Woods after the begin of Tommen's reign.
- She omitts Ser Gregor's succession and by that Tommen's decision to dismiss Jaime from his post as Lord Commander.
- There is a cut when she writes about Jaime's loss of his hand, which would be her own introduction to the book. As Maid of Tarth? Her virginity is one of many battlefields in the debate about Jaime's possible redemption. Did he leave his pregnant sister-lover-queen only to get another woman pregnant he leaves? There are good reasons to assume Brienne's preserved virginity in the end.
- Her decision to omitt Ser Gregor also brought Brienne side by side with Jaime. One day Podrick is her likely successor, which would turn the White Book into some weird family album. We got Ser Duncan the Tall a few pages ago. It adds a business-like touch to a formerly chaste institution.
- Jaime's own hand made it impossible for Brienne to add important bits to the kingslaying of Aerys II. So his later deeds have to serve that purpose. They paint Jaime as a knight who is flexible under different monarchs, who copes with personal losses and who looks for the greater good as well as for smaller opportunities to be of help. Without the actual name of the queen he died saving, the reader gets a feeling of a former kingslayer who not only served many other monarchs right during times of revolution and war, but with the whole consequence of dying in service. Since the Last War was between three queens, the odds that a reader picks the right queen Jaime saved are always worse than 50/50. Which is good, because every one of them pretty much played her own miserable game. There is no glory in serving any of them at the cost of your life.

 

All in all I think Brienne did a good job in maintaining Jaime's legacy. Not so much in empowering him to come full circle as a being.

 

I was always surprised by the amount of people who looked for a redemption arc in Jaime's story. Jaime made it pretty clear that the only thing he ever felt sorry for was Bran's attempted assassination - which even was quite in tune with a Kingsguard's job since the queen and her family were involved in a secret worth protecting. Jaime got the chance to sort that out with Bran, so why would people still feel disappointed?

Because it was truly Jaime's resocialisation which failed, especailly with Brienne and Tyrion.

Since last season Tyrion built every King's Landing ploy around the premise that Jaime and Cersei would want to start a new life together. Even when Jaime left Cersei and had an obvious crush on Brienne, Tyrion's idea in Winterfell's map room is still to isolate Cersei, so that Daenery's dragon would not burn the population and set off Cersei's wildfire. But Jaime stayed in Winterfell with Brienne. There he had to learn about the allies' losses and that Sansa never intended to join them. So Jaime took action and forced his capture, only to learn that Tyrion's only plan is to still get rid of Cersei.

Brienne's judgement of Jaime's character isn't that glorious either. Sure, learning about Deanerys' intention to rip Cersei out "root and stem" surely encouraged Brienne to keep the "guest of the Lady of Winterfell" around as long as possible, but as soon as Tyrion is gone Sansa makes it pretty clear that she doesn't trust Jaime and doesn't like him. Jaime on the other hand was open about his provisional stay in the North from the very beginning. Whatever happened after their kiss it resulted in no pregnancy and it was possibly not enough to convince the Maid of Tarth to leave "the fucking North" and help Jaime "climbing mountains" - by facing Cersei and the Mountain alongside him. There are no words of goodbye because Jaime can hope Brienne would follow him. Only, she doesn't. She thinks he returns to his lover - not to fight her, but to die with her.

Those are the two people who are supposed to know and love Jaime for years and they fed our own impatience with the "slow learner" with their reactions at once. We saw how Jaime dealt with other people's mistrust in the past. When he reasons with Edmure, it's only the worst possible assumption that moves Edmure. It's a world full of Littlefingers who won't ever give you the whole hand. Cersei may take truths to tell lies, but the infamous kingslayer has to take lies to tell the truth, e.g. "Saphires!" It's that sad really, that a new life for a supposed criminal needs an environment who gives him the chance to leave his past behind. Tyrion and Brienne were too insecure about their impact on him and he proved them wrong only in the end, when he blocked all the ways for Cersei's escape - a smooth Valonquar, who locked his hands around the queen's throat until she suffocated under the breaking structure that represented an incomplete penalty system.
 

[Apoplexy]

3 hours ago, Haus Berlin said:

 

- There is a cut when she writes about Jaime's loss of his hand, which would be her own introduction to the book. As Maid of Tarth? Her virginity is one of many battlefields in the debate about Jaime's possible redemption. Did he leave his pregnant sister-lover-queen only to get another woman pregnant he leaves? There are good reasons to assume Brienne's preserved virginity in the end.

How? Please explain as I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

4 hours ago, Haus Berlin said:

 

I was always surprised by the amount of people who looked for a redemption arc in Jaime's story. Jaime made it pretty clear that the only thing he ever felt sorry for was Bran's attempted assassination - which even was quite in tune with a Kingsguard's job since the queen and her family were involved in a secret worth protecting. Jaime got the chance to sort that out with Bran, so why would people still feel disappointed?

Jaime's redemption arc was about him becoming a better person, as flawed as he was, not just about him flinging Bran out a window. 

4 hours ago, Haus Berlin said:

Because it was truly Jaime's resocialisation which failed, especailly with Brienne and Tyrion.

Calling Jaime anti social would be a stretch.

4 hours ago, Haus Berlin said:

Whatever happened after their kiss it resulted in no pregnancy and it was possibly not enough to convince the Maid of Tarth to leave "the fucking North" and help Jaime "climbing mountains" - by facing Cersei and the Mountain alongside him. There are no words of goodbye because Jaime can hope Brienne would follow him. Only, she doesn't. She thinks he returns to his lover - not to fight her, but to die with her.

Brienne following Jaime would not make any sense, even by standards as low as season 8. Jaime did not expect her to follow either.

4 hours ago, Haus Berlin said:

. Tyrion and Brienne were too insecure about their impact on him and he proved them wrong only in the end, when he blocked all the ways for Cersei's escape - a smooth Valonquar, who locked his hands around the queen's throat until she suffocated under the breaking structure that represented an incomplete penalty system.

You are going to have to explain because I do not understand, at all.