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The Book of The Kingsguard - Help Me Decide

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

That is one chapter. I am speaking wrt to book 1.

If your contention is his story arc was incomplete, could you explain to me how was it incomplete? What more should have been included in his story arc?

His story arc was completed with a brutal, tragic defeat of all of his schemes and plans and the extinguishment of his entire future. Just like numerous other characters throughout the story. 

Edited by Forlong the Fat

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

His story arc was completed with a brutal, tragic defeat of all of his schemes and plans and the extinguishment of his entire future.

Exactly my point! It was complete.

And although it was tragic, there was a purpose behind it. To set the current events in motion. It wasn't tragedy for the sake of shock. It wasn't bad writing.

ETA: Which brings me to my original point, Jaime's arc and all the other main character arcs that ended in tragedy were just poorly executed.

Edited by Apoplexy

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Exactly my point! It was complete.

And although it was tragic, there was a purpose behind it. To set the current events in motion. It wasn't tragedy for the sake of shock. It wasn't bad writing.

ETA: Which brings me to my original point, Jaime's arc and all the other main character arcs that ended in tragedy were just poorly executed.

You actually think this makes sense, don't you? I'm out. 

Edited by Forlong the Fat

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21 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

You actually think this makes sense, don't you? I'm out. 

I really do think it makes sense. 

See ya. Feel free to come back anytime. I moonlight enlightening people :)

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On 5/21/2019 at 4:11 PM, #FreeGhost said:

I'm not sure how I feel about the scene with Ser Brienne completing Jaime's chapter in the book of the Kingsguard. At first, it was "oh, at least they're giving credence to that." However, in the book canon, that Kingsguard book is central to Jaime's redemption arc. Also, it seems that they're using it t gloss over the catastrophe that was Jaime's show character. To me, this was almost troll-level insulting. Like D&D were going out of their way to drop a final 'screw you' to the book readers. Equal parts touching and insulting to me.

Its about story and about how story can be manipulated. The history Ebrose writes doesn't include Tyrion, one of our main characters. Who were his sources? It doesn't seem like anyone will ever know that Olenna Tyrell killed Joffrey. Brienne's writing shows that she knew the core of Jaime that he denied. He recounts his sins and truly believes he is too far gone. She knows better and her twisting of events shows the character she knew he had. Bran is the only objective observer of history because he can see it himself rather than having it twisted.

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1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

Exactly my point! It was complete.

And although it was tragic, there was a purpose behind it. To set the current events in motion. It wasn't tragedy for the sake of shock. It wasn't bad writing.

ETA: Which brings me to my original point, Jaime's arc and all the other main character arcs that ended in tragedy were just poorly executed.

 

53 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

You actually think this makes sense, don't you? I'm out. 

Makes sense to me. I'm not sure what's not to understand. 

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3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 

Makes sense to me. I'm not sure what's not to understand. 

I’ll try once more. But this is the last time. Eddard and many other characters died after failing miserably. He didn’t succeed in his arc. Likewise, Jaime failed in his arc and died before he successfully fulfilled it. 

And it’s utterly circular to say in response to this that earlier characters’ arcs were fulfilled because they died, so jaime’s was poorly done. 

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46 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

I’ll try once more. But this is the last time. Eddard and many other characters died after failing miserably. He didn’t succeed in his arc. Likewise, Jaime failed in his arc and died before he successfully fulfilled it. 

And it’s utterly circular to say in response to this that earlier characters’ arcs were fulfilled because they died, so jaime’s was poorly done. 

No Jaime's was poor because it served no purpose. 

On a side note: why do people get so angry, condescending, insulting even when someone doesn't agree with them or if there is some perceived miscommunication? 

Disagreeing is not a life altering event. We can disagree & there is no consequence for it. 

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42 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

I’ll try once more. But this is the last time. Eddard and many other characters died after failing miserably. He didn’t succeed in his arc. 

I would strongly disagree. He helped win RR, protected Jon from Robert and raised his children well. All of his children looked up to him, drew inspiration from him and id argue owe a lot of their success in the series to him. He died tragically, but he influenced enough people that he is still remembered through book 5 and also all throughout the show. There was a purpose for his tragic death narratively.

48 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

 Likewise, Jaime failed in his arc and died before he successfully fulfilled it. 

I agree, Jaime's arc was a failure and I don't know why the show runners wasted so much time with it. It was extremely poor writing. He ended up back to square one.

51 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

And it’s utterly circular to say in response to this that earlier characters’ arcs were fulfilled because they died, so jaime’s was poorly done. 

Who said that? I never did. Ned's arc wasn't complete by virtue of his death. His death was central to his arc 15 years after RR.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

No Jaime's was poor because it served no purpose. 

On a side note: why do people get so angry, condescending, insulting even when someone doesn't agree with them or if there is some perceived miscommunication? 

Disagreeing is not a life altering event. We can disagree & there is no consequence for it. 

Because people who are hard of thinking continually make specious criticisms in a condescending manner.  

Edited by Forlong the Fat

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1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

I would strongly disagree. He helped win RR, protected Jon from Robert and raised his children well. All of his children looked up to him, drew inspiration from him and id argue owe a lot of their success in the series to him. He died tragically, but he influenced enough people that he is still remembered through book 5 and also all throughout the show. There was a purpose for his tragic death narratively.

I agree, Jaime's arc was a failure and I don't know why the show runners wasted so much time with it. It was extremely poor writing. He ended up back to square one.

Who said that? I never did. Ned's arc wasn't complete by virtue of his death. His death was central to his arc 15 years after RR.

This is a fun game. Jaime's death also was central to his role in RR. 

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19 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

This is a fun game. Jaime's death also was central to his role in RR. 

Please elaborate..

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23 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

Because people who are hard of thinking continually make specious criticisms in a condescending manner.  

So you're saying people who disagree with you are 'hard of thinking'??

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34 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Please elaborate..

I see little point in elaborating on rhetorical nonsense intended to respond to your nonsense, but in any case:

Jaime’s arc was to seal victory in RR and save the people, paradoxically becoming infamous for his most valorous action. 

I love the word arc.  I feel ever so smart when I use it.

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On 5/21/2019 at 10:29 PM, The Baelish Mockingbird said:

It's amazing how many people misunderstand the final scene with Jaime and Brienne. People praise George RR Martin for having realistic and morally grey characters but scoff at the show whenever it tries to show a character having the same level of humanity. I'm not going to defend a lot of what D&D did this season but it's kind of irritating me how many people are missing the point with Jaime's final arc. He wants to be a good man and fulfil his duties and do what he thinks is best. He fulfilled his duty by defending the North from the White Walkers and now he wants to do what he thinks is best, save the only woman he ever truly loved and his unborn child. As much as people would like to ship Brienne and Jaime together, it would have never worked out. Brienne helped Jaime when he was in a dark place but he never truly loved her, he just greatly admired her. He did however truly love Cersei and despite all the hateful things she had done, he could not bare the idea of her dying with his child.

Should he have gone back to Cersei? Maybe not. Maybe he should have stayed in Winterfell with Brienne, maybe they could have lived a decent life together. However just because he had a redemption arc does not been he was a flawless individual now. Like most humans, he is still a creature of habit, this habit just being his love for Cersei. Now what would have been completely out of character for him would have been if he suddenly decided that he didn't care what happened to Cersei or his unborn child. Jaime and Cersei had an incredibly complicated relationship and it's completely missing the point of their relationship to say that it's backwards character development for Jaime to go back for Cersei. If there was anything they got right in series 8, it was Jaime's end.

This, totally.

I liked that Brienne finished Jaime's page in the book. It showed that, unlike many viewers, she recognized that his weakness where Cersei was concerned did not negate his other good and honorable qualities. It says a lot about Brienne as a person; instead of being spiteful because he broke her heart, she wanted to make sure that "Kingslayer" was not Jaime's final & only legacy.

I didn't particularly like Jaime and Brienne's brief romance, but I wonder if Jaime saw it as his last step in breaking his tie to Cersei, cuz remember he had never slept with anyone else but her before. It says a lot for Jaime's growth as a person that he could have the deep respect that he had for Brienne when at first, he was so hatefully contemptuous of her.

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27 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

I see little point in elaborating on rhetorical nonsense intended to respond to your nonsense, but in any case:

 

Why, thank you for deigning to respond.

30 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

Jaime’s arc was to seal victory in RR and save the people, paradoxically becoming infamous for his most valorous action. 

Jaime sealed victory in RR? When did that happen? And what does that have to do with him needing to die to fulfil his arc?

32 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

I love the word arc.  I feel ever so smart when I use it.

I'm glad you do??

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5 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

This, totally.

I liked that Brienne finished Jaime's page in the book. It showed that, unlike many viewers, she recognized that his weakness where Cersei was concerned did not negate his other good and honorable qualities. It says a lot about Brienne as a person; instead of being spiteful because he broke her heart, she wanted to make sure that "Kingslayer" was not Jaime's final & only legacy.

 

I agree it shows brienne in a good light. But it doesn't improve the show's handling of Jaime.

I cannot speak for others, but I saw Jaime as a flawed character and acknowledged cersei being his weakness. And I also (clearly) saw his good qualities. Which is why he is my favorite character to read. 

But my contention is that irrespective of whether Jaime loved brienne or not (the show runners said he did), Jaime didn't love cersei. He was just addicted to her, to put it simply. His redemption arc wasn't about saving people from the NK, he already did that with Aerys. It was about being a better person and breaking free from cersei's influence. 

HAving spent 7 seasons with the redemption arc, to bring him back to square one was poor writing imo.

15 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

 

I didn't particularly like Jaime and Brienne's brief romance, but I wonder if Jaime saw it as his last step in breaking his tie to Cersei, cuz remember he had never slept with anyone else but her before. It says a lot for Jaime's growth as a person that he could have the deep respect that he had for Brienne when at first, he was so hatefully contemptuous of her.

This was season 3 Jaime. He did a lot since then, only to die saying what he did in season 1. I didn't think it was a compelling storyline.

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6 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

HAving spent 7 seasons with the redemption arc, to bring him back to square one was poor writing imo.

Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. I interpreted as some people are too far gone to be fully redeemable, and if he is addicted to Cersei, as opposed to actually loving her, then it makes even more sense. There are many people who struggle with addiction who are otherwise good people, but their addiction is too strong and they are never able to overcome it.

It was a sad ending for Jaime, but I don't think it was due to poor writing.

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23 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Why, thank you for deigning to respond.

Jaime sealed victory in RR? When did that happen? And what does that have to do with him needing to die to fulfil his arc?

I'm glad you do??

There’s a new one. How did Ned need to die to fulfill his arc with respect to RR? Or Catelyn or Robb?

maybe the problem is that you think there’s something called an arc that’s different from the things that the characters do. 

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