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Varys motives to return a Targarian to the Throne

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8 hours ago, White26 said:

He was, before Roberts rebellion though.

And maybe even after it, seeing how Robert mucked up everything. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

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Varys makes no sense in the show. He never even tried to put a Targaryen on the throne there considering he actually wanted to poison Dany back in season 1.

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7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Varys makes no sense in the show. He never even tried to put a Targaryen on the throne there considering he actually wanted to poison Dany back in season 1.

Varys actions are quite confusing indeed. Think we could agree that he didn't want to put on the throne neither Viserys nor Daenerys but fAegon. His identity is speculative and I wouldn't be sure if he is or isn't a Targaryen. It would be more surprising for fAegon to be real so thn Varys' motivations would be even more mysterious.

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Posted (edited)

Varys in the show only cared for the realm, the smallfolk, and how to maintain peace. He never cared for Targaryens in specific. He only choose to support Daenerys, because he thought she might be good for the realm. He has said that to Tyrrion in S05E01. As soon as he started to realize who Daenerys was (albeit poorly written and executed) he changed sides to Jon. That was his story in the show. It was rushed and badly written at the end, but that was actually his story. 

Edited by T and A

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3 hours ago, T and A said:

Varys in the show only cared for the realm, the smallfolk, and how to maintain peace. He never cared for Targaryens in specific. He only choose to support Daenerys, because he thought she might be good for the realm. He has said that to Tyrrion in S05E01. As soon as he started to realize who Daenerys was (albeit poorly written and executed) he changed sides to Jon. That was his story in the show. It was rushed and badly written at the end, but that was actually his story. 

No, show Varys claimed he had been conspiring in favor of a Targaryen restoration long before season 5. He conspired with Illyrio to bring the Dothraki to Westeros in season 1, after all.

He never had any internal consistency as a character because 'serving the Realm' and 'bringing the Dothraki' don't add. Not to mention that trying to restore Viserys III is also incompatible with 'serving the Realm' considering the guy would have been not exactly a good king.

How shitty the character and the writing for him actually was could be seen in the end of season 8 - Varys actually was the best buddy of King Aerys II and never did anything to stop him. He never betrayed him, no matter what he did. In spite of this he claims he was 'serving the Realm'. That's laughable to no end.

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The plotline from season 1 was one of many book plots that they dropped as the series progressed. As we know in the books part of the plan was to marry off Viserys to Arianne so that they could have Dorne join up with Drogo's khallassar as part of their conquest. In the books that got shifted to fAegon because he can act in Viserys place, and Dany is the real wrinkle. 

In the show, it's just portrayed that Dany was the potential ruler who could offer the best to Westeros and then Varys found another Targaryan with a strong claim who he liked better

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

No, show Varys claimed he had been conspiring in favor of a Targaryen restoration long before season 5. He conspired with Illyrio to bring the Dothraki to Westeros in season 1, after all.

He never had any internal consistency as a character because 'serving the Realm' and 'bringing the Dothraki' don't add. Not to mention that trying to restore Viserys III is also incompatible with 'serving the Realm' considering the guy would have been not exactly a good king.

How shitty the character and the writing for him actually was could be seen in the end of season 8 - Varys actually was the best buddy of King Aerys II and never did anything to stop him. He never betrayed him, no matter what he did. In spite of this he claims he was 'serving the Realm'. That's laughable to no end.

Yeah, once again, you are mixing books with the show. Most of the "claims" you make, have already been adressed within the show itself. Varys never tried to help Viserys in the show. Varys allready has comited to Tyrion that he felt gulity for Aerys II crimes, but was to afraid to intervene and tried to save his own ass back then. He also said, in Season 7 that he had tried to convince himself that he "only pointed to the traitors" but tried to convince himself all this time that it was not him who pulled the trigger. In that scene, it is obvious that he allways knew, it was of course also his fault. In Season 1 there was only the discussion with Illyrio under the Red Keep. Sure, the showrunners could have gone with the plot of book Varys from there, but they didn't. And at that meeting, nothing was stated between Varys and Illyrio, that wouldn't be plausible, with Varys being a man of the realm, nor did that conversation state, that Varys was a Targaryen supporter. They were just speaking, that the Lion and the Wolf are about to get dirty and that a war was no good at that time. But from this conversation alone, as a show, you can go anywhere without further informations. Even that Varys is an agent of the White Walkers. Maybe stop mixing book plot with show plot, when discussing each? 

Edited by T and A

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30 minutes ago, T and A said:

Yeah, once again, you are mixing books with the show. Most of the "claims" you make, have already been adressed within the show itself. Varys never tried to help Viserys in the show. Varys allready has comited to Tyrion that he felt gulity for Aerys II crimes, but was to afraid to intervene and tried to save his own ass back then. He also said, in Season 7 that he had tried to convince himself that he "only pointed to the traitors" but tried to convince himself all this time that it was not him who pulled the trigger. In that scene, it is obvious that he allways knew, it was of course also his fault. In Season 1 there was only the discussion with Illyrio under the Red Keep. Sure, the showrunners could have gone with the plot of book Varys from there, but they didn't. And at that meeting, nothing was stated between Varys and Illyrio, that wouldn't be plausible, with Varys being a man of the realm, nor did that conversation state, that Varys was a Targaryen supporter. They were just speaking, that the Lion and the Wolf are about to get dirty and that a war was no good at that time. But from this conversation alone, as a show, you can go anywhere without further informations. Even that Varys is an agent of the White Walkers. Maybe stop mixing book plot with show plot, when discussing each? 

You are just trying to see in a favorable light. There is a lot of pointless buildup for the Varys character that never goes anywhere. Like there is for many other characters. Varys does claim in season 5 he has been in the business of a Targaryen restoration for quite some time - without ever explaining why this is the case. What's so good in a Targaryen restoration? Why does he care? Why did he go to KL in the first place, he is a foreigner? Why does he give shit about the people of Westeros or this foreign land? Why doesn't he care about the situation in his own homeland (Lys)? Why did we get pointless back story about his castration?

And, yeah, right, Varys talking to the dude who arranged the Dothraki wedding and them not wanting a war right now implies he could be an agent of the Others or some other such nonsense.

It is quite clear that those talentless hacks had no idea back then where they were going with the character. And if you don't know where you want to go with a character yet there is no reason to hint at things that will have no payoff. That's just bad writing. Just as it is bad writing just to pull things out of your ass in the end, things there has been no buildup for.

Varys is most definitely one of the most vapid characters in the show - despite the factor that the actor did a tremendous job playing him.

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On 5/26/2019 at 5:43 PM, White26 said:

I am still wondering, if fAegon is a Blackfyre, then why all this masquarade, why they didn't show him as a Blackfyre and not invade. Why they want to give him faked legitimacy. Blackfyres have claim to the Iron Throne regardless.

True, but the Blackfyre claim is a tenous one to start with (a rebel cadet branch of a house which itself has been deposed and last known claimant from this branch had two heads LOL) and if fAegon is s Blavkfyre it's likely through his mother's side (and wasn't she from a pillow house IIRC) so hardly very marketable in Westeros. It might matter more to the GC, who agrees firmly on board this project and whose Westerosi exiles probably see this as their last chance to return 'home'. Rhaegar is still remembered fondly in some parts of the 7K and had not been associated with Aerys' madness and paranoia. Robert, Ned, Jon and Lord Tully are all dead, and the Vale apart, the other 3 regions are in a complete shambles, so makes sense to form an alliance with Targ loyalists in the Reach, Dorne, and anyone left in the Crownlands, and use the vaccum elsewhere.

I was responding to the specific point in the quote. I know it doesn't apply to the show. If the discussion has already moved on from there, I'm sorry.

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2 hours ago, Ser Hedge said:

I was responding to the specific point in the quote. I know it doesn't apply to the show. If the discussion has already moved on from there, I'm sorry.

There is not much to discuss regarding the show tbh.

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Posted (edited)

Varys in S1 was talking about how he saw war about to break out between the Lannisters and the Starks, and he wanted to bring Ned to his side. Varys had a conversation with Ned that suggested he wanted Ned to continue to rule: "The queen is not the only one who has been watching you closely. There are few men of honor in the capital. You are one of them. I would like to believe I am another." Illyrio is the one who says that they have to wait until Khal Drogo's son is born. Then Varys says, "this is no longer a game for two players" - seems like Varys wanted Ned as their puppet. I think Illyrio was always the one who was pushing for winning the throne by conquest while Varys was always the one who was looking for a viable ruler. I think its a mistake to assume Varys and Illyrio agreed on stuff. 

In the show universe, Varys likely ended up supporting Dany around the time the Lannisters started to look very Marie Antoinette with the ostentatious wedding planning. Possibly before. This makes sense.

Later, he ended up switching to Jon, which was a good choice - but the author hates Targaryens. Like, Martin seriously hates them so much, even the ones who didnt even know they were Targaryens have to go. Harsh. 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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4 hours ago, White26 said:

There is not much to discuss regarding the show tbh.

LOL, very true!

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Posted (edited)
On 5/27/2019 at 9:59 PM, T and A said:

Yeah, once again, you are mixing books with the show. Most of the "claims" you make, have already been adressed within the show itself. Varys never tried to help Viserys in the show.

Doesn't Dany reference Varys's intention to put Viserys on the throne early in season 7? Before pointing out that Varys betrayed everybody whom he had ever served and promising to burn him, should he turn on her? It is in the show - in a rather nonsensical and unexplained manner.

Of course, in the same conversation Dany also indicated that while Viserys may have stupidly believed that he'd be received with open arms in Westeros, she herself knew better - only to make a 180 on this insight in a hurry, because "it is like poetry, it rhymes", I guess. Show consistency!

Edited by Maia

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On 5/27/2019 at 5:20 PM, T and A said:

As soon as he started to realize who Daenerys was (albeit poorly written and executed) he changed sides to Jon.

Kind of off topic, but didn’t everybody start to realize who Daenerys was conveniently immediately after using her to deal with the NK?

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1 hour ago, hewman said:

Kind of off topic, but didn’t everybody start to realize who Daenerys was conveniently immediately after using her to deal with the NK?

To quote the raven (the Three Eyed one in this case)?

(Ominous music sounds)

She was exactly where she was meant to be.

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Posted (edited)

I can’t take Bran 9000 seriously anymore since someone here said that, on the outside  he always has a straight face but inside he  clearly goes “trollolololo” :)

Edited by hewman

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On 5/27/2019 at 8:10 AM, Lord Varys said:

Varys makes no sense in the show. He never even tried to put a Targaryen on the throne there considering he actually wanted to poison Dany back in season 1.

That bit arguably makes the most sense if he expected the plot to be discovered (and did his best to arrange for it to happen). Chaos in westeros meant the invasion had to be sped up, but Drogo was delaying, so an "assassination attempt" attributed to King Robert helped nudge Drogo into playing out his role. We never actually saw the effects of the "poison", so we don't know what was actually in the wine.

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3 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

That bit arguably makes the most sense if he expected the plot to be discovered (and did his best to arrange for it to happen). Chaos in westeros meant the invasion had to be sped up, but Drogo was delaying, so an "assassination attempt" attributed to King Robert helped nudge Drogo into playing out his role. We never actually saw the effects of the "poison", so we don't know what was actually in the wine.

Oh, I don't believe there was actually poison in the wine in the books, I think Varys and Illyrio set the wine seller up. But in the show it is clear that Varys does not (want to) stop the wine seller attempt (unlike in the books) nor does Jorah later tell Dany/the audience that Varys never wanted to see Dany dead. Instead, we get Varys' bird giving Jorah his pardon, making the decision to save Dany his own, rather than in accord with Varys' own desires.

This is another instance where show Varys is inconsistent - after all, apparently he conspires with Illyrio to have Drogo invade Westeros while also trying to murder both Dany and Drogo through by poison. What is it - it cannot be both?

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17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, I don't believe there was actually poison in the wine in the books, I think Varys and Illyrio set the wine seller up. But in the show it is clear that Varys does not (want to) stop the wine seller attempt (unlike in the books) nor does Jorah later tell Dany/the audience that Varys never wanted to see Dany dead. Instead, we get Varys' bird giving Jorah his pardon, making the decision to save Dany his own, rather than in accord with Varys' own desires.

This is another instance where show Varys is inconsistent - after all, apparently he conspires with Illyrio to have Drogo invade Westeros while also trying to murder both Dany and Drogo through by poison. What is it - it cannot be both?

Once you see the depths of their plot building capabilities? X-Men Origins, Troy.

Does it really surprise anyone they'd fumble at making a character like Varys remotelly credible after hacking off a large part of his original direction?

Oh oops. Now he's on her side but trying to kill her. Now he's on her side and not trying to kill her. Now he's just trying to kill her. Wth? What in hells for?

Oh yeah, for the realm.

????

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