Heresy 222 vindication

[asongofheresy]

Contributing to my own ideas is it possible there is a connection between Black goat of Qohor and Skagos? Goat of Qohor is a bloody deity that demans sacrifices daily, they are also living in  forested area so maybe CotF of Essos had more impact on them. Skagos on the other hand is known for their unicorn goats and said to be cannibals. 

Hooded Wayferer reminds me the man from WF that gave Bran blackberries and the Hooded Man of WF too. 

Pantera, a deity of Lys, could be tiger wife of Bloodstone Emperor. 

Pattern is interesting, there are swirling (?) patterns on HotU carpets, the show used swirling and theta symbols. 

Is it possible Old Man of the River isn't a gigantic turtle but the Shrouded Lord himself - or is there a possibility Shrouded Lord is Hooded Wayferer? 

[Black Crow]

5 hours ago, JNR said:

A curious position to take, because Show Dany never contends with Show Jon.   Jon is on her side practically from the day they meet until the very instant she dies.  

But will Book Dany contend with Book Aegon?  We'll find out, but  I think she will...

In the books, Book Aegon is backed by the Golden Company.  But in the show, the Golden Company is opposed to Jon Snow.

The show-runners were also apparently fooled into believing R+L=J, and as a result, committed themselves to many comical decisions such as giving Jon the secret Targ name "Aegon."  It seems they forgot that Show Rhaegar had already had a son named Aegon in Show World, as referenced so memorably by Show Gregor Clegane during his fight with Show Red Viper.

In general, I think it would be best to say that D&D totally abandoned Book Aegon's entire storyline, and everything and everyone in it.  Jon Connington, Septa Lemore, Haldon the half-maester, Rolly, Ysilla and her excellent biscuits, her husband Yandry, etc, etc.  All completely tossed out the window.   All literally nonexistent in the show.

So as usual, just a dog's breakfast on the part of Benioff and Weiss.

Not so curious given that "Aegon/Jon" offed her in the end, but otherwise a fair comment

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

Contributing to my own ideas is it possible there is a connection between Black goat of Qohor and Skagos? Goat of Qohor is a bloody deity that demans sacrifices daily, they are also living in  forested area so maybe CotF of Essos had more impact on them. Skagos on the other hand is known for their unicorn goats and said to be cannibals. 

Hooded Wayferer reminds me the man from WF that gave Bran blackberries and the Hooded Man of WF too. 

Pantera, a deity of Lys, could be tiger wife of Bloodstone Emperor. 

Pattern is interesting, there are swirling (?) patterns on HotU carpets, the show used swirling and theta symbols. 

Is it possible Old Man of the River isn't a gigantic turtle but the Shrouded Lord himself - or is there a possibility Shrouded Lord is Hooded Wayferer? 

I'd be rather inclined to suggest a connection between the Shrouded Lord and the Stranger

[asongofheresy]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'd be rather inclined to suggest a connection between the Shrouded Lord and the Stranger

True, with Catelyn's corpse pulled out of water and the Bran seen where he throws a rock to a well and the well swallows it, there are dead things in the water. Plus Biter has a squisher feel from Nible Dicks stories, and webbed fingers of Sisterton are interesting too, agents of Stranger could be anywhere. 

[Lady Rhodes]

11 hours ago, JNR said:

However, for me, we do already know that they ended it egregiously far off.  The oncoming Long Night in the books... which I think we agree is going to be the primary and final conflict of the series, in contradiction of the show... really can't end with killing Night King.  Because he doesn't exist in the books, except as a mythical reference to a human being.

The show ending also depends on the premise that killing a Popsicle instantly kills all the wights (or other Popsicles) that that Popsicle created.  And this crucial concept, like Night King, simply does not exist in Book World.  

This is a fair point; however, I do want to point out that we don't technically know that it is not true, either.  We just don't know enough about the Others to be sure.  I recently read an interesting article that posited that there have been two fights previously with the Others.  The first resulted in Azor Ahai sacrificing Nissa Nissa.  However, the quote regarding what happens when AA sacrifices NN is telling:
 

Quote

Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel.

The thinking is that NN is the female Other described in the tale of the Night's King:

Quote

The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan's stories, the tale of Night's King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

Nissa Nissa had all of her blood and warmth and soul put into Lightbringer. 

This would certainly be different, and much richer, than what we have in the books, but we actually don't know if there is something more out there.  We just don't know.

 

[Melifeather]

I think all tales and gods of Essos are mirrored inversions to tales and gods in Westeros. They are similar enough that we draw the connection, but they are two sides of the same coin.

[St Daga]

17 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Both could support the likelihood that Mel may have taught Selyse that a fiery death was the road to salvation. If so then Shireen's burning might be justified in the eyes of of Mel and Selyse because not only would her sacrifice serve a a purpose, but because in making that sacrifice she would be saved - as Mel believes herself to have been

But saved in what way? Like a metaphysical existence after death? Or a rebirth for Shireen after death? Because Selyse would be loosing her heir to the throne, and that feels lacking foresight to me from Selyse's perspective. However, I suppose it could be said that if Mel also promises Selyse that she and Stannis would have another heir together, this might work. Even if Selyse is bat shit crazy, she still seems connected enough to the throne not to let that go so easily. I could be very wrong about her, though.  She has certainly embraced R'Hllor in a way Stannis has not seemed to.

 

[St Daga]

17 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I don't think Sansa was affecting the weather at the Eyrie - it was expected after all.

However... the snowflake communion certainly appears to affect her.

That scene does seem like a bit of a wake up for Sansa, or at least a connection for her to her home of Winterfell and the north, but then in Feast, we actually see her losing more of herself to Baelish's plot's and the identity of Alayne. Does she feel herself slipping away, and so in some way, to hold onto herself, does she invite the weather to become worse?  I guess I need to look back into the text, but how soon after Lysa's death does the weather really start to get crappy? I mean, it could be argued that winter is expected all over Westeros, even in Kings Landing by the end of Dance, but when looking at small pockets of weather around our Stark's, could there be something else going on? Even before Lysa's death, Sansa seems to be struggling a little with Lysa and Sweetrobin, and a lot with Marillion. She wakes to snow in the morning and within a few hours, Lysa is smears and stains on the floor of the valley. 

However, if one looks at it the other way, could someone/something have sent the snow, Winterfell's weather, to Sansa in an attempt to make her reconnect with her northern self? When I read this scene, I always wonder how Ned felt when winter came to the Vale (if it came very often during his time with Jon Arryn), it was winter at least before the Harrenhal tourney, and perhaps more often than we think.

Do Stark's talk to the weather, or does weather talk to the Stark's?

 

[St Daga]

11 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

Hooded Wayferer reminds me the man from WF that gave Bran blackberries and the Hooded Man of WF too. 

...

Is it possible Old Man of the River isn't a gigantic turtle but the Shrouded Lord himself - or is there a possibility Shrouded Lord is Hooded Wayferer? 

On my current reread, I have been noting and making connections to hoods and being "hooded" for the Stark's. The hood concept makes me think of a protective mechanism, but even more than that, I wonder if it's nod to the Stranger, or death. The Stark's don't follow the seven of course, although Ned and Cat's children have probably been co-raised in religion, but the Stranger has some connections to perhaps the "great Other", and is perhaps something the First Men might have worshiped before the old gods?

A shroud and a hood are pretty similar, or can be used to cover oneself. A shroud certainly has death imagery about it. The turtle could just be a representation of the shrouded lord, in the way that families in Westeros are associated with animals. And a turtle makes sense for the Rhoyne, and in a way, a turtle can shroud or hood itself within its own shell.  Ah, to be able to read that Tyrion chapter when he seems to visit with the shrouded lord while drifting in the Rhoyne!

[Melifeather]

20 minutes ago, St Daga said:

That scene does seem like a bit of a wake up for Sansa, or at least a connection for her to her home of Winterfell and the north, but then in Feast, we actually see her losing more of herself to Baelish's plot's and the identity of Alayne. Does she feel herself slipping away, and so in some way, to hold onto herself, does she invite the weather to become worse?  I guess I need to look back into the text, but how soon after Lysa's death does the weather really start to get crappy?

In the Winds chapter Alayne II, Sansa notes that winter may have arrived to the Eyrie, but that down in the valley it was still late Autumn and grain was ripening in the fields. She was about to attend a tourney where the winners would become young Robert's Brotherhood of Winged Knights.

[St Daga]

2 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

The thinking is that NN is the female Other described in the tale of the Night's King:

Quote

The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan's stories, the tale of Night's King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

Nissa Nissa had all of her blood and warmth and soul put into Lightbringer. 

If the Night's Queen was Nissa Nissa, and I like the thought process, then would her essence have made the sword "cold as ice", with white and blue imagery? Certainly a hot sword plunged into ice is going to cause cracking and steam  power (hints at the moon cracking), but somewhat hard to control, but what does her individual aspect do to the sword? It again makes me wonder about the original Stark sword Ice!  However, the tale we are told is that Nissa Nissa left heat and warmth in the sword, which seems a contrast if she was truly "cold as ice". Perhaps if we do have two forgings, one was heat and the other cold?

[St Daga]

1 minute ago, Feather Crystal said:

In the Winds chapter Alayne II, Sansa notes that winter may have arrived to the Eyrie, but that down in the valley it was still late Autumn and grain was ripening in the fields. She was about to attend a tourney where the winners would become young Robert's Brotherhood of Winged Knights.

Thanks, I don't know those chapters well, as I only broke down and read the released chapters a couple months back. So, winter does not seem to have followed Sansa to the valley floor. But is she happy right now? If her mood is good, perhaps that would not effect the weather around her? What if her mood changes? Does it seem like this tourney is a parallel or inversion of Harrenhal? If so, it might give us some great insight into what happened in the past.

[Melifeather]

4 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

In the Winds chapter Alayne II, Sansa notes that winter may have arrived to the Eyrie, but that down in the valley it was still late Autumn and grain was ripening in the fields. She was about to attend a tourney where the winners would become young Robert's Brotherhood of Winged Knights.

What is interesting to me is that the tourney is taking place in autumn rather than the traditional spring, and the number of knights will be eight, because Robin wanted one more knight than Tommen. The use of "Brotherhood" sounds like this group is a jumbled parallel to both the bandit groups and the detachments sent to deal with them. I had been finding parallels between the Kingswood Brotherhood, The Brotherhood Without Banners, Arianne's group, and Gregor Clegane's raiding parties. I'm thinking we can expect the Brotherhood of Winged Knights to have some things in common with those groups as well as the Kingsguard.

[Melifeather]

1 minute ago, St Daga said:

Thanks, I don't know those chapters well, as I only broke down and read the released chapters a couple months back. So, winter does not seem to have followed Sansa to the valley floor. But is she happy right now? If her mood is good, perhaps that would not effect the weather around her? What if her mood changes? Does it seem like this tourney is a parallel or inversion of Harrenhal? If so, it might give us some great insight into what happened in the past.

She's very excited. She notes the fluttering of butterflies in her tummy when she thinks about her engagement to Harry the Heir. She hasn't lost her girlish romantic nature, but she has become quite adept at manipulating people. It was her idea for the tourney and she's quite pleased with herself.

[St Daga]

3 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

True, with Catelyn's corpse pulled out of water and the Bran seen where he throws a rock to a well and the well swallows it, there are dead things in the water.

This actually seems a bit like Trios. An entry into the water, and an exit from the water, but what happens while in the water? This is where the transformation happens, I would guess. But how and why does it work? I seem to remember that Beric's first resurrection happened after Edric Dayne pulled him from a river. 

[Direwolf Blitzer]

15 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Do Stark's talk to the weather, or does weather talk to the Stark's?

Do the Walkers bring the cold, or does the cold bring the Walkers?

 

Other idle musings: Was reading old friend @Voice re: Bran's visions, and cross-referencing with the dwarf woman (Ghost of High Heart, IIRC?). Bran sees a stone giant in his GoT vision. I'm inclined to believe it's Ilyn Payne, but it could also be Littlefinger. Recall that Littlefinger is already plotting against the Starks, if only indirectly. The assassin's knife, etc. I bring it up only because of the GHH vision, "I saw a maid with snakes in her hair" (Sansa, unknowingly wearing the poison), later she "dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle made of snow." 

 

I would not be surprised to see Sansa kill Baelish as Winter falls on the Eyrie. 

 

Regarding the link between the Starks and Winter: It's been a decade since the last book, so I am sure someone has already done this to death, but when and why was the false spring, and was it someone's fault?

[Lady Rhodes]

30 minutes ago, St Daga said:

her essence have made the sword "cold as ice", with white and blue imagery?

Not necessarily.  The theory posits that all of her warmth went into the sword, leaving her as cold as ice.  Meaning, she was not an Other until she was sacrificed.  The act of the sacrifice turned her into a female Other.

[Melifeather]

49 minutes ago, Direwolf Blitzer said:

Do the Walkers bring the cold, or does the cold bring the Walkers?

 

Other idle musings: Was reading old friend @Voice re: Bran's visions, and cross-referencing with the dwarf woman (Ghost of High Heart, IIRC?). Bran sees a stone giant in his GoT vision. I'm inclined to believe it's Ilyn Payne, but it could also be Littlefinger. Recall that Littlefinger is already plotting against the Starks, if only indirectly. The assassin's knife, etc. I bring it up only because of the GHH vision, "I saw a maid with snakes in her hair" (Sansa, unknowingly wearing the poison), later she "dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle made of snow." 

 

I would not be surprised to see Sansa kill Baelish as Winter falls on the Eyrie. 

 

Regarding the link between the Starks and Winter: It's been a decade since the last book, so I am sure someone has already done this to death, but when and why was the false spring, and was it someone's fault?

There have been many discussions on the identity of the stone giant full of black blood, and all the suggestions and theories have some merit. I have been a proponent that the stone giant is Littlefinger, and later I thought it might be Robert Baratheon, however I am now beginning to suspect that the stone giant’s identity is much bigger in size and strength than any one man, and am influenced by GRRM’s modeling of the Faith of the Seven on the Catholic Church.

The Andals brought the Faith of the Seven to Westeros and the tradition of knighthood along with it. Knights are romanticized both in the books and in real life, but we also know knights are capable and guilty of horrible atrocities. Sandor Clegane represents the ugly truth under the armor. He not only recognizes and accepts what he is, but he points out the hypocrisy of other knights, especially the Kingsguard.

Robert Baratheon should be included in the symbolism of the giant in armor even if readers don't think of him as being a knight, but don't forget he was an Andal and trained as a knight, and I believe he played a hidden part in Lyanna's abduction either as the Smiling Knight or a direct parallel of the Smiling Knight. His bloody horror of a smile on his bed of blood is our clue. Furthermore, I suspect he was a willing pawn of the Faith of the Seven, grooming and encouraging him as their "Smith", whereas Tywin Lannister was their "Father". For these reasons, I believe the armor itself is the institution of knighthood, and the Faith and it’s Citadel are the anonymous darkness and thick black blood inside the armor.

[St Daga]

45 minutes ago, Direwolf Blitzer said:

I would not be surprised to see Sansa kill Baelish as Winter falls on the Eyrie. 

I would love it if this happened, but I am not convinced. Baelish is very smart, although the irony of him grooming Sansa, who will then take him down is quite delightful. I'm just not sure that GRRM will give us "delightful". And now just in the last day, I am again leaning toward it being Arya who fulfills the role as the "same maid" that takes down the stone giant, possibly, horribly, because she is wearing her sister's face.

 

23 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Not necessarily.  The theory posits that all of her warmth went into the sword, leaving her as cold as ice.  Meaning, she was not an Other until she was sacrificed.  The act of the sacrifice turned her into a female Other.

Okay. I see what you are saying. So, the sacrifice takes all the heat from a living Nissa Nissa and leaves her only a cold version of the Night's Queen. Do you have a link to this specific theory?

What implications could this have for someone to play the role of Nissa Nissa in our current story? Dany is associated with fire and heat, and also Sansa, with that warm Tully hair that glows like copper in the fire light. If you take all the heat out of a Stark maid, are you left with only ice and cold? Melisandre also has fiery "copper" hair and a burning heat within her. But part of me feels she is already dead, so I am not sure if she could work for this.

 

[Direwolf Blitzer]

3 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Sandor Clegane represents the ugly truth under the armor. He not only recognizes and accepts what he is, but he points out the hypocrisy of other knights, especially the Kingsguard.

Clegane is not a knight, though. It's a big part of his character. Even upon elevation to the Kingsguard he refuses knighthood. I think Clegane represents your position, in fact; he sees the hypocrisy of the system, and to the degree he can resist being a part of it, he does. (Still murdered a kid, but hey)

 

5 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

For these reasons, I believe the Faith and it’s Citadel are the anonymous darkness and thick black blood inside the armor.

This doesn't wash. GRRM is pretty even with his religions; there are good and bad elements to all of them. There are drunken, greedy septons, sure. There's also Meribald and the men of the Quiet Isle. And by the time Dance rolls around, the faith is undergoing a sort of internal reformation and seeing the emergence of pious orders dedicated to serving the poor, etc. 

Beyond that, "the Faith" is too abstract for this particular vision. As has been said elsewhere, the things Bran sees in this vision are happening, as Keifer Sutherland would say, in real time.