Heresy 222 vindication

[St Daga]

11 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

29 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Also, why does Euron have a blue eye? The majority of the Greyjoy's we meet have black eyes. I don't think Theon's eye color is ever named, which I find suspicious and have for years felt like they might be grey, but blue eyes don't really fit the Greyjoy's. It does fit the Other's, however. What if Euron is connected to more than one type of power? 

Ooh I had never thought of the blue eye issue! Perhaps Euron sailed very far north...

Euron brags that he has sailed to many places, so I think this is possible, but how does just one eye change color?

I was just doing some research and it seems like there is a procedure that can be do to your eye, people with darker eyes, brown or green, that with the use of bright, concentrated light, the darker pigments can be removed and you are left with only blue pigment left in your eyes. It's called the Stroma procedure. Could exposure to a bright light have caused something to happen to one of Euron's eyes? How bright? The  glass candles are said to give off a unusual light, making things brighter, more vivid. IF Euron has a glass candle and stares into it often, could this have affected his eye? Leo Tyrell is staring into one in the last chapter of Feast. He is noted in the prologue of Feast to have hazel eyes, so I am now wondering if when we get a description of Leo later, his eye color could be changed in some way. Damn it, we need another book!

[Black Crow]

50 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Many interesting things in the Bran the Blessed tale, perhaps the most interesting to me is that Bran's head lives on much longer than his body, and it speaks and gives advice. Later, it is buried (reportedly at the location of the Tower of London) as a way to keep Britain safe. This connects the ravens imagery of Bran the Blessed to the tower, and we certainly have Bran, ravens and tower imagery connected in ASOIAF. 

Yes, this is part of the reason why I've been advocating the Bran the Blessed connection [for years now!]; not only is Bran quite literally the raven, but his crippling effectively means that he is just a head

[LynnS]

On the matter of Euron's sigil;  I've wondered if this is a depiction of the three-eyed crow.  Two crows eyes with a third eye and an iron crown?  I'm not suggesting that Euron is the 3EC but that he was visited by the 3EC and promised what he most wanted - a crown.  Bran thinks if he meets the 3EC, he will be able to walk again.  What was Euron offered?

[LynnS]

3 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Yes, this is part of the reason why I've been advocating the Bran the Blessed connection [for years now!]; not only is Bran quite literally the raven, but his crippling effectively means that he is just a head

Interesting.  When Penny tells Tyrion about Trios, she says the dwarf who juggled beside the fountain was cut up into the three pieces and placed into the mouths of the statue.  The head is missing, the body devoured but not the head.

[St Daga]

9 minutes ago, MaesterSam said:

That being said, I don't think you have to have Stark blood in order to bond with a horse. Dany has a special bond with her Silver, for example, and Domeric Bolton was said to ride as well as Lyanna Stark. 

Well, in the past, I have entertained tinfoil at one time or another that links both Dany and Domeric to Stark blood. But no, you don't need to be a Stark to bond with a horse, but the concept of Brandon and Lyanna's ability with horses is noted in the text. They are likened to centaur's. Dany's experience with her silver at her wedding is almost mystical! Theon likes that Smiler is an asshole and bites people, but I find his reaction to Smiler's death the most interesting thing. And these things could be nothing more than a type of skinchanger gene, which in recent years, I have come to recognize in several of the great houses, not just the Stark's.

Now, I am not exactly sure what is going on with Smiler's death, but we get in in real time from Theon's POV and then Reek twice thinks of the way that Smiler died. A black horse wreathed in flame, or at least noted to have his mane flaming. This black horse with a red mane sounds a bit like the Ryswell sigil. Dany's House of the Undying vision also includes who she thinks is Rhaego with a "fiery stallion", and one could look back at Smiler, a stallion in flames, as a nod to Dany's vision. I am not sure how it all connects, but it seems like it has too.

[Black Crow]

51 minutes ago, St Daga said:

A hinge is strongly associated in these memories of Aeron, and hinges, as you have pointed out, are strongly associated with magic in this world, so to me, the hinge that Aeron hear's is related to magic more than rusty iron, although Aeron might not fully understand that. So, a rape of the mind, the action of stealing a body, or at least the attempt to, makes a lot of sense for what was going on with Euron and his brothers.

I'm inclined to agree with this. Whilst superficially these memories might be read as Euron raping his brothers, something much more significant seems to be at work.

In the first place we're not actually taken beyond the screeching of a rusty hinge, yet that implies a little-used hinge, while one on a bed-chamber door is going to be regularly used and so smoother and quieter. Taken with Mel's reference to the Wall being one of the great hinges of the world, this suggests that Euron is opening something long closed - and perhaps long closed for good reason. This isn't to deny the horror of what he is doing and the long-term effect on his brothers, but it strikes me that there is something far more significant than physical rape involved.

 

[MaesterSam]

45 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I think the aspect of youth might be important in all of this. Young children would not be able to fight such a possession off, as perhaps an adult would. It's usually easier to train people and animals when they are young. There are hints that something is happening with Sweetrobin in this way, although it seems to take a tole on him. And what about Varys' children? Why children? And why have their tongues cut out, which is a nod to Euron's crew on the Silence!

Sweetrobin is such a mystery! There is definitely something going on with him, but what? The quote I associate with him is "the chosen ones are not robust" - which of course refers to greenseers. He does have some weird dreams, and those shaking spells which I used to think was simply epilepsy but now I'm not so sure. In the show, they gave Jojen seizures when he had visions - where did they get this idea? 

It's also possible that what he needs is his spirit animal in order to thrive. We saw this with some Targaryen children in Fire & Blood, where they were small and sickly until they got their dragon, after which they thrived. Somebody should get that kid a falcon!

As for Euron and Varys's mutes - they are clearly hiding something, and don't want their men/children to spill the beans. Regardless of what may have happened with Aeron and Urri as children, I think it's quite likely that adult Euron is taking over people's bodies and doesn't want this known. Especially in the case of the dusky woman.

40 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Also, why does Euron have a blue eye? The majority of the Greyjoy's we meet have black eyes. I don't think Theon's eye color is ever named, which I find suspicious and have for years felt like they might be grey, but blue eyes don't really fit the Greyjoy's. It does fit the Other's, however. What if Euron is connected to more than one type of power? 

It's certainly possible, and would lead to other interesting questions. BR had two red eyes before one was cut out - so he is entirely marked as a "normal" greenseer. Euron is half & half. Bran has two blue eyes. Coincidence? 

Sweetrobin notably also has blue eyes, as does Sansa...

[Melifeather]

Speaking of the Dusky Woman - I believe she is a parallel to both Lady Darklyn and Shiera Seastar, and I think we may be able to get a sense of what happened to Shiera and what may happen to the Dusky Woman, by reviewing what happened to Lady Darklyn.

In The Reaver chapter, Victarion has a dusky woman that Euron gave him that he kept in his cabin on the Iron Victory. After battle he went to her and took her twice in quick succession. Afterward she had blood smeared across her breasts, thighs and belly, but it was his blood from the gash Serry gave him. The dusky woman washed his wound with boiled vinegar.

“Dusky” is a euphemistic or poetic reference to black or somewhat dark-skinned people, but the blood smeared over her body surely mirrors Shiera Seastar, as there were rumors that she bathed in the blood of maidens to retain her beauty. 

The washing of the wound with vinegar is surely the sting Bittersteel felt when Shiera chose Bloodraven over himself, because he and Shiera were also once lovers. Victarion tells the dusky woman that Euron’s plan was good, that the Mander river was now open to raiding by the ironborn, but she cannot speak in return, because Euron has cut out her tongue. (The Mander is a mirrored reflection of the Blackwater)

The tongue is a very special part of the body. It allows for communication, lovemaking, spitting, eating, and many other essential activities. It is perhaps the most personal part of the human body, more personal than even your genitals. If you dream about getting your tongue cut out it means that you have said too much to someone you know about something, or said something inappropriate. I think the fact that the dusky woman is missing her tongue is somehow a parallel to whatever befell Shiera. Perhaps Shiera pitted the two brothers against each other? Did she tell Bittersteel's secrets to Bloodraven and visa versa? Euron has secrets that the Dusky Woman knows about. Serala, "the Lace Serpent" and Lady Darklyn of Duskendale, also lost her tongue.

The Blackwater Bay is an inlet of the Narrow Sea, separated from it by the Gullet, held between the arms of Crackclaw Point to the north and Massey’s Hook to the south, with the island of Dragonstone guarding the entrance to the bay. In this way Dragonstone is like the Shield Islands by the Mander. Aside from Kings’s Landing and Dragonstone, the largest port on the bay is Duskendale, which serves as a secondary port for King’s Landing when the main port is overwhelmed with traffic. 

Duskendale was formerly ruled by the Darklyns, but it is currently the seat of House Rykker. During the Andal invasion the Darklyn king at Duskendale forced Togarion Bar Emmon to abandon the northern Blackwater for Massey’s Hook. The Darklyns are now extinct due to the Defiance of Duskendale which took place during the reign of King Aerys II when, according to the smallfolk, Lord Denys Darklyn was convinced by his wife, Lady Serala of Myr, to take King Aerys II captive. 

During the imprisonment of the king, the master-at-arms of the Dun Fort, Ser Symon Hollard, slew Ser Gwayne Gaunt of the Kingsguard. The Hand of the King, Lord Tywin Lannister, assembled an army that could easily storm the town, but Lord Denys threatened to kill Aerys if Tywin attacked. Aerys was held prisoner for half a year with Tywin’s army waiting outside Duskendale. 

The situation was at a stalemate until Ser Barristan Selmy stole into the Dun Fort and rescued the king. Having lost his hostage, Lord Denys had no choice but to surrender. He bent the knee and begged for mercy, but the king demanded his head and those of all his family. Lady Serala, called the Lace Serpent for the poison of her words, was burned alive after her tongue and female parts were torn out which were blamed for enslaving her lord husband.

Is what happened to Lady Serala a mirror of whatever happened to Shiera Seastar? Shiera chose Bloodraven over Bittersteel, yet Bloodraven is the one "enslaved". Bloodraven was punished by Aegon V for luring and murdering Aenys Blackfyre. Was this common knowledge or did Shiera tell Bittersteel who in turn told Aegon V what Bloodraven did? If Shiera was to blame for Aegon finding out, would Bloodraven have cut out Shiera's tongue and genitals over her betrayal? 

[St Daga]

7 minutes ago, MaesterSam said:

It's also possible that what he needs is his spirit animal in order to thrive. We saw this with some Targaryen children in Fire & Blood, where they were small and sickly until they got their dragon, after which they thrived. Somebody should get that kid a falcon!

I think there is truth in this. Sweetrobin does seem like he has skinchanger qualities. There is something in the Tully/Stark combination that worked for Ned and Cat's children, and it must be in the Stark blood, or we would not see it in Jon. So, the Tully/Arryn blood works, or if we speculate that Jon Arryn was not Sweetrobin's bio-dad, then it must be in the father's genes as well. I think it has to come from both sides of the family. That is why the Targaryen's wed brother to sister for so long, to keep the genetics that are powerful in play! Genes from father and mother are a must!

Sweetrobin has the strong falcon imagery, and the mention of the Winged Knight of the Arryn's who rode a falcon into battle is raised in the story. Also, there is a Falcon Knight in Arynn history. So yes, let us get Sweetrobin a Falcon. He might become much more fierce and shed his Sweet Robin persona! You are correct to compare him to Jojen, in size and frailty.There is some connection, but what? Maybe it is greenseer skills? Sweetrobin has dreams, hears singing, is very concerned with bad men flying! The baddest man in the story right now is Euron, but I don't know how they could be connected except by dream streams. Towers, flying, falling...

14 minutes ago, MaesterSam said:

It's certainly possible, and would lead to other interesting questions. BR had two red eyes before one was cut out - so he is entirely marked as a "normal" greenseer. Euron is half & half. Bran has two blue eyes. Coincidence? 

Sweetrobin notably also has blue eyes, as does Sansa...

Rickon. also with the Tully blue eyes, seems to have some interesting dream connections (as well as a fierce connection to Shaggydog), and though it's hard to say what is going on with him, based on his age and lack of POV, there is no doubt he dreamed Ned was in the crypts after his death. Rickon was three years old at this time, although, he is noted to be strong and fierce, which makes him different than Jojen or Sweetrobin.

 

[Melifeather]

35 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Euron brags that he has sailed to many places, so I think this is possible, but how does just one eye change color?

I was just doing some research and it seems like there is a procedure that can be do to your eye, people with darker eyes, brown or green, that with the use of bright, concentrated light, the darker pigments can be removed and you are left with only blue pigment left in your eyes. It's called the Stroma procedure. Could exposure to a bright light have caused something to happen to one of Euron's eyes? How bright? The  glass candles are said to give off a unusual light, making things brighter, more vivid. IF Euron has a glass candle and stares into it often, could this have affected his eye? Leo Tyrell is staring into one in the last chapter of Feast. He is noted in the prologue of Feast to have hazel eyes, so I am now wondering if when we get a description of Leo later, his eye color could be changed in some way. Damn it, we need another book!

When I read this I went OOOOOH! A bright concentrated light??? LOL, I like this very much, because there are lightning strikes associated with both House Stark and the Harrenhal Tourney! I theorize that when Bloodraven forced a repeat of winter it was like lightning struck, and the force of the impact nearly ripped the door to magic right off the hinge on the Wall. As I had suggested a few posts ago, I posit that Euron's gift awakened when the strike occurred. 

[St Daga]

2 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

When I read this I went OOOOOH! A bright concentrated light??? LOL, I like this very much, because there are lightning strikes associated with both House Stark and the Harrenhal Tourney! I theorize that when Bloodraven forced a repeat of winter it was like lightning struck, and the force of the impact nearly ripped the door to magic right off the hinge on the Wall. As I had suggested a few posts ago, I posit that Euron's gift awakened when the strike occurred. 

Very interesting. How old is Euron? How old was he at the time of the Harrenhal tourney? Could he have been at Harrenhal? It sounds like people from all over the 7K were invited, so why not a Greyjoy, even if he wasn't interested in jousting. Certainly, sometimes when there is a great lightening storm, the brightness of the lighting can make a person almost blind, or left with the imprint of the lightening burned in your vision for a time. 

[Demetri]

48 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Euron brags that he has sailed to many places, so I think this is possible, but how does just one eye change color?

I was just doing some research and it seems like there is a procedure that can be do to your eye, people with darker eyes, brown or green, that with the use of bright, concentrated light, the darker pigments can be removed and you are left with only blue pigment left in your eyes. It's called the Stroma procedure. Could exposure to a bright light have caused something to happen to one of Euron's eyes? How bright? The  glass candles are said to give off a unusual light, making things brighter, more vivid. IF Euron has a glass candle and stares into it often, could this have affected his eye? Leo Tyrell is staring into one in the last chapter of Feast. He is noted in the prologue of Feast to have hazel eyes, so I am now wondering if when we get a description of Leo later, his eye color could be changed in some way. Damn it, we need another book!

This isn't a bad basis for theory. I think a physical expression of magical taint is precisely what's being alluded to.

But we also must consider that it is ONE eye. Because of how unnatural it would be for only one eye to be exposed to such magic, I kind of take it that the eye represents some form of sacrifice/ascendance in a magical rite. That, of course, raises its own set of questions. But it also suggests that it was not merely a matter of science, though the exposure to bright light/magical light could be the method used in the light.

[St Daga]

2 minutes ago, Demetri said:

This isn't a bad basis for theory. I think a physical expression of magical taint is precisely what's being alluded to.

But we also must consider that it is ONE eye. Because of how unnatural it would be for only one eye to be exposed to such magic, I kind of take it that the eye represents some form of sacrifice/ascendance in a magical rite. That, of course, raises its own set of questions. But it also suggests that it was not merely a matter of science, though the exposure to bright light/magical light could be the method used in the light.

I agree that it's odd that it's one eye. But Euron also wears a patch, but it's hinted that both eyes are able to see, or not damaged, anyway. Euron's eye patch might be a nod to pirates who used to wear a patch over one eye, so they could move the patch from eye to eye, depending on if they were above deck or below. This would allow them to see in the darker or brighter conditions more quickly since they didn't need to wait for both eyes to adjust. 

In that way, could Euron use one eye to gaze at a glass candle (or something bright), while the other is used for something else? Changing the patch, depending on what he needs? And, a bit unrelated but still associated with the eyes, why is Euron's blue eye known as his "smiling eye"? 

[Demetri]

8 minutes ago, St Daga said:

In that way, could Euron use one eye to gaze at a glass candle (or something bright), while the other is used for something else? Changing the patch, depending on what he needs? And, a bit unrelated but still associated with the eyes, why is Euron's blue eye known as his "smiling eye"? 

I REALLY like this. It gives functionality to the whole thing, which is far more sinister than some magical scar.

[MaesterSam]

51 minutes ago, LynnS said:

The eye he covers with a patch is actually black.  I'm looking for the quote where I think Theon, Aeron or Victarion says that he wants to remove the patch to make sure there is still a black eye beneath it.  His personal sigil as seen by Sam is a black eye with two crows and a crown.  The name Euron Croweye also suggests that the eye is black like a crow.  I've always thought that both his eyes were blue and after the fall, a head injury caused one pupil to permanently dilate; hence the need for a patch.

I'm not sure why he is later called Bloodeye and whether this is given to him because of his bloody nature or because the eye has hoemmorhaged and he now leaves the eye uncovered.

I think it depends what part of the eye we are describing. His sigil is a red eye with a black pupil - it really doesn't specify the iris, which is what is normally used when describing eye color. Here is the description from The Forsaken chapter:

Quote

And so, Aeron Damphair returned to the salt sea. A dozen longships were drawn up at the wharf below the castle, and twice as many beached along the strand. Familiar banners streamed from their masts: the Greyjoy kraken, the bloody moon of Wynch, the warhorn of the Goodbrothers. But from their sterns flew a flag the priest had never seen before: a red eye with a black pupil beneath an iron crown supported by two crows.

 

36 minutes ago, St Daga said:

This does make sense. My Dad had an eye injury a couple years ago, and his globe filled up with blood. So, his blue eye turned purple and all the white was red. It was creepy, no lie! It didn't last more than a week or so, but this would be a good explanation for Euron's blood eye, and it could actually fit the sigil of a red eye and a black pupil. The iris doesn't need to be red, just the sclera! I like it.

Yes, this is very possible. It's never specified what parts of the eye are red, not in The Forsaken nor in Sam's chapter in AFFC:

Quote

“Battle here,” said Xhondo. “Not so long.”
“Who would be so mad as to raid this close to Oldtown?”
Xhondo pointed at a half-sunken longship in the shallows. The remnants of a banner drooped from her stern, smoke-stained and ragged. The charge was one Sam had never seen before: a red eye with a black pupil, beneath a black iron crown supported by two crows. “Whose banner is that?” Sam asked. Xhondo only shrugged.

 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, MaesterSam said:

It's certainly possible, and would lead to other interesting questions. BR had two red eyes before one was cut out - so he is entirely marked as a "normal" greenseer. Euron is half & half. Bran has two blue eyes. Coincidence? 

Interesting.  I've considered that Tyrion might be half a greenseer.  Euron might also be half a stranger:
 

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Theon II

Theon shifted his seat. "My uncle Euron has not been seen in the islands for close on two years. He may be dead." If so, it might be for the best. Lord Balon's eldest brother had never given up the Old Way, even for a day. His Silence, with its black sails and dark red hull, was infamous in every port from Ibben to Asshai, it was said.

"He may be dead," Esgred agreed, "and if he lives, why, he has spent so long at sea, he'd be half a stranger here. The ironborn would never seat a stranger in the Seastone Chair."

 

 

[MaesterSam]

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

Well, in the past, I have entertained tinfoil at one time or another that links both Dany and Domeric to Stark blood. But no, you don't need to be a Stark to bond with a horse, but the concept of Brandon and Lyanna's ability with horses is noted in the text. They are likened to centaur's. Dany's experience with her silver at her wedding is almost mystical! Theon likes that Smiler is an asshole and bites people, but I find his reaction to Smiler's death the most interesting thing. And these things could be nothing more than a type of skinchanger gene, which in recent years, I have come to recognize in several of the great houses, not just the Stark's.

I agree! We see magical tendencies in many of the Great Houses. Aside from the Starks, Targaryens and Ironborn, we see Jaime have some very interesting dreams, Domeric was compared to a centaur (never mind Roose himself!), something is going on with Sweetrobin, Arianne Martell's cousin dreamed of dancing dragons... and Shireen dreamed of being eaten by one. House Reed produced a likely greenseer in Howland and a confirmed green dreamer in Jojen. Houses Blackwood and Dayne are surely magical as well, and I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting. 

To me, this fits well with the theory that after the Pact, each Great House got its own greenseer, possibly by marrying a COTF. This was the legendary founder who ruled for centuries. And it's how the magical blood was introduced into the Great Houses of Westeros. 

[Melifeather]

Euron’s sigil is a red eye with a black pupil supported by two crows. Does he think Bloodraven and Bran are his two crows? He said when the world was broken there’d be a new god. His sigil could signify three crows with a single red/black eye. Sort of in the same vein as three heads.

[Lady Rhodes]

3 hours ago, St Daga said:

I agree that it's odd that it's one eye. But Euron also wears a patch, but it's hinted that both eyes are able to see, or not damaged, anyway. Euron's eye patch might be a nod to pirates who used to wear a patch over one eye, so they could move the patch from eye to eye, depending on if they were above deck or below. This would allow them to see in the darker or brighter conditions more quickly since they didn't need to wait for both eyes to adjust. 

In that way, could Euron use one eye to gaze at a glass candle (or something bright), while the other is used for something else? Changing the patch, depending on what he needs? And, a bit unrelated but still associated with the eyes, why is Euron's blue eye known as his "smiling eye"? 

Your note about the ability to see the glass candle etc is interesting. My thoughts drift back to Bran’s chapter in Game when he was in a coma and the crow was trying to get him to fly. He sees something that utterly terrifies him. Perhaps Euron also saw it but he didn’t shy away, perhaps he went looking for it instead? Maybe this process or discovery led him to something that changed his eye color...

we know that Craster gives his sons as a sacrifice but we don’t know what really happens (the show gave us an interpretation but who knows the accuracy) is it possible to become an Other? Wights are created from deceased beings, so I supposed a living sacrifice could create an Other but this is pure speculation. Could Euron have traveled to the Lands of Always Winter to participate in a ritual? A ritual that turned an eye blue? 

as far as age during tourney of Harrenhal, I believe Balon, Euron, and Victarion all helped conduct the raids on the Reach where Quellon Greyjoy died. So he would have to be of age with Ned and company, I would wager. 

[St Daga]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Interesting.  I've considered that Tyrion might be half a greenseer.  Euron might also be half a stranger:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Theon II

Theon shifted his seat. "My uncle Euron has not been seen in the islands for close on two years. He may be dead." If so, it might be for the best. Lord Balon's eldest brother had never given up the Old Way, even for a day. His Silence, with its black sails and dark red hull, was infamous in every port from Ibben to Asshai, it was said.

"He may be dead," Esgred agreed, "and if he lives, why, he has spent so long at sea, he'd be half a stranger here. The ironborn would never seat a stranger in the Seastone Chair."

 

I love this idea of "half a Stranger" for Euron. The idea of the dead fit's Euron well. Why half a greenseer for Tyrion? I can never tell if his "dreams" of having his own dragon are actual dreams or just wishes. The green eye must come from the Lannister blood, but I guess Jaime and Cersei have the same eyes and have some interesting dreams.

 

1 hour ago, MaesterSam said:

To me, this fits well with the theory that after the Pact, each Great House got its own greenseer, possibly by marrying a COTF. This was the legendary founder who ruled for centuries. And it's how the magical blood was introduced into the Great Houses of Westeros. 

This does make quite a bit of sense. Though the Tully's have only been in charge of the riverlands since Aegon's conquest, they show some interesting connections. Perhaps there was some reason that Aegon picked them over other houses in the riverlands? House Tully does have some possible connections to House Mudd, an ancient First Men house that might link back to Jenny of Oldstones. Do we know if Jenny ever had dreams? I think the small folk referred to her as a witch, which might be important.