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Heresy 222 vindication

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46 minutes ago, JNR said:

Here's the very rare theory that maybe all Heretics can agree with:

Benioff and Weiss are secret Targs, and season eight is the proof that they succumbed to insanity.

To wake the dragon inside the show watcher was the secret ending all along. The book endgame will be burning the book. :D

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39 minutes ago, JNR said:

Now, where we agree is that that still really made no sense.  Because even if he did have the superior claim, how would Jon ever prove it?  This is a thing we book readers have known for years, and would still be an enormous hurdle in the books.

Ahh. But that is the other secret ending all along. To prove it, they need a reliable source. So Bran had to become king, because he is the only person who can qualify himself as a reliable source. By becoming king Bran could declare Jon a Targaryen by citing his own superior knowledge. And then he can use Jon's claim to become king. 

Yeah. Not a plothole at all. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, St Daga said:

I mean, the seeds have been laid for Dany since the first book, just like they are there for Bran or Tyrion or Jon, perhaps, to become the ultimate but complicated villain.

Yes, and I don't question that Dany ends as a villain (I don't even think its unlikely that she violently sacks King's Landing), I only wonder how her "madness," if it exists at all, is to be portrayed. For example, Rhaegar might not exhibit Aerys' emotional paranoia, but he abruptly decided he must become a warrior based on something he read in a scroll, and was speaking confidently to his wife about the idea that his son is the PtwP, and they need a third head--even in a world where magic and prophesy exist, this doesn't strike me as mentally healthy behavior.

I'd always assumed Dany would be a 'villain' in the sense that she's going to become the Khal-of-Khals - a conqueror - but it may be that she was more profoundly impacted by her time in the Dothraki Sea, and the events that preceded it.

Particularly, being burned again:

Quote

"Daenerys is not dead. She was riding that dragon. I saw it with mine own two eyes." He had said the same a hundred times before … but every day that passed made it harder to believe. Her hair was afire. I saw that too. She was burning … and if I did not see her fall, hundreds swear they did.

Quote

Our histories speak of the dragonlords of dread Valyria and the devastation that they wrought upon the peoples of Old Ghis. Even your own young queen, fair Daenerys who called herself the Mother of Dragons … we saw her burning, that day in the pit … even she was not safe from the dragon's wroth."

Quote


Only the birth of her dragons amidst the fire and smoke of Khal Drogo's funeral pyre had spared Dany herself from being dragged back to Vaes Dothrak to live out the remainder of her days amongst the crones of the dosh khaleen.

The fire burned away my hair, but elsewise it did not touch me. It had been the same in Daznak's Pit. That much she could recall, though much of what followed was a haze
...
She ran a hand across her stubbly scalp where her hair had burned away, and felt more ants on her head, and one crawling down the back of her neck.


Thereafter, as she wanders the Dothraki Sea, her behavior seems a little... off:

Quote

She was very tired, and fresh blisters had appeared on both her feet, including a matched set upon her pinky toes. It must be from the way I walk, she thought, giggling.

...

Once I dreamed of flying, she thought, and now I've flown, and dream of stealing eggs. That made her laugh. "Men are mad and gods are madder," she told the grass, and the grass murmured its agreement.

...

"Drogon killed a little girl. Her name was … her name …" Dany could not recall the child's name. That made her so sad that she would have cried if all her tears had not been burned away. "I will never have a little girl. I was the Mother of Dragons."

Aye, the grass said, but you turned against your children.
...

Through the grass came a soft silvery tinkling.

Bells, Dany thought, smiling, remembering Khal Drogo, her sun-and-stars, and the bells he braided into his hair. When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, when the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves, when my womb quickens again and I bear a living child, Khal Drogo will return to me.


Really, there's almost too much from that chapter to go over without just posting a wall of quotes, but taking all of the above, and especially the trend of her 'conversations' with Quaithe/Jorah/Viserys about embracing "Fire and Blood," she might already have begun to go mad in earnest.

Edited by Matthew.

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40 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Ahh. But that is the other secret ending all along. To prove it, they need a reliable source. So Bran had to become king, because he is the only person who can qualify himself as a reliable source. By becoming king Bran could declare Jon a Targaryen by citing his own superior knowledge. And then he can use Jon's claim to become king. 

Yeah. Not a plothole at all. 

Confused?... Moi?  :D

Seriously though, I think that this is good example of what I was talking about. The Mummers ask what happens to cute little Bran in the end. GRRM tells them, but they have no idea how on earth he gets there...

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@St Daga would love to be more down to earth but I just want TWOW so much! 

@JNR I agree there is no easy way to prove RLJ, through Bran? He is stuck in a Weirwood tree, through Howland? No one would believe a "frog eater", through Ashara/Wylla? Sigh not going to work too. 

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41 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Seriously though, I think that this is good example of what I was talking about. The Mummers ask what happens to cute little Bran in the end. GRRM tells them, but they have no idea how on earth he gets there...

Whatever his plan is for Bran, it appears to be one of his most longstanding, since Bran I AGOT is the first chapter he wrote, and Anne Groell has bragged that she knows "Bran's ending," (while simultaneously expressing jealousy that Daniel Abraham knows Tyrion's ending).

Even so, despite the surge of "Fisher King Bran" posts, I understand the skepticism; while putting him on the throne isn't impossible - he's set to become the most magically powerful character, he's technically the rightful King of the North (ergo, could already be a recognized monarch), and elective monarchy already has potential through the Great Council system -, putting him on the throne in a way that feels credible and satisfying to the reader still feels out of reach to me, especially with only two books left.

Even if it were portrayed as some kind of roundabout victory for the old god/3EC/whatever, I'm just not seeing it as a potential development that I would like--though I don't consider that an argument against King Bran, as disappointment is always an option.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, JNR said:

If that were true, she would not have cared Jon was Rhaegar's trueborn son... and she would not have cared who knew that... and she certainly would not have begged him to keep his goddamned mouth shut.

But she did.  She did all that.  She cared tremendously that he had the superior claim.

But in the end, after she had taken King's Landing, she doesn't seem at all bothered by Jon's birth or claim. It's like it doesn't matter any more. And of course it doesn't matter, because that is how Dany's show arc ended, with her death, so it didn't need to matter.  And if she is dead, no one's claim matters, least of all hers. If it mattered, she would have killed Jon Snow right then. But suddenly it didn't matter to her at all, and she was happy to share her "new world" dream with Jon.

And yes, we can agree, that even if Jon turns out to be Rhaegar's son, why would it matter to the people of Westeros, and even if it did, what kind of proof would it take? It just seems hard to imagine that it will matter to the kingdom. It might matter to Jon, who's whole arc is about being Ned Stark's bastard and overcoming a bastard birth.

2 hours ago, JNR said:

I'm just saying that on the very specific point of whether a Targ is likely to go insane, Barristan is as good an authority as it gets.  You can't be Aerys II's Kingsguard, for years, without learning a thing or two about cruel Targ madness.

And when he was evaluating Dany, he surely would have been looking for the same kind of stuff we see Viserys frequently doing in book one:

Quote

His fingers brushed lightly over her budding breasts and tightened on a nipple. "You will not fail me tonight. If you do, it will go hard for you. You don't want to wake the dragon, do you?" His fingers twisted her, the pinch cruelly hard through the rough fabric of her tunic. "Do you?" he repeated.

"No," Dany said meekly.

Just nasty and cruel and pointless.  Dany is not that, IMO, though she is also capable of dealing harshly with people she believes are cruel, like the slave masters.

Dany and Viserys are at far different places in their life. Sure, he is an ass, no doubt. But he is also a man grown who has been ridiculed the majority of his life, who feels cheated and shit on. Those things have a toll, even if we meet him after the toll has been taken.  He is also 21 or 22 years old, much older than Dany currently is in her story, so she still has time to become like him. We can never say what Barristan had thought of Viserys if he had watched him grow into adulthood, although he does seem to think he saw signs of some instability or cruelty in Viserys as a child, but gives no examples. He also watched that in Joffrey, and did nothing. I personally think that one reason that Barristan might look more kindly on Dany is because she is female, The "madness" seems to be more of a concern with males in the line, or at least the people we hear about are Aerys, Aerion, Maegor (who might have been cruel but also was dealing with a traumatic brain injury, which could have changed much in his path). There is hinting about Rhaenyra's instability, but was she truly mad? I doubt it and that could be propaganda. We hear about some wild Targaryen woman, who drink to excess or ride horses unsafely or want to be courtesans, but never women linked to true madness. 

Time will tell if we ever get more of the story from GRRM, and it's also possible that he might change "the broad strokes" of the story after what the show has done. And if he sticks to them, as he says he will, then gosh knows it will be handled much better. There is much in Dany that is gentle and kind, as much as she can be cruel and harsh. She seems to care and worry about the child hostages she has in Meereen but will that keep her from killing them if need be? And I am not saying that makes her mad, because that is the world that she lives in, but it could make us question her eventual choices. That same might be said for Jon, who also has wildling child hostages under his control, and might be faced with making hard choices. I always wonder if Ned could have taken Theon's head off, if Robert demanded it or if Balon had rebelled again? After all, Ned is a man who's own life was spared by the man who called him ward, after the demand of a king.

Edited by St Daga
clarification and spelling

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50 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Confused?... Moi?  :D

Seriously though, I think that this is good example of what I was talking about. The Mummers ask what happens to cute little Bran in the end. GRRM tells them, but they have no idea how on earth he gets there...

A more grounded approach with the entire RLJ story would have helped them a lot. Like being a bastard matters until someone with authority declares you otherwise. It is clear that Jon needs someone with authority. And it is clear that the authority needs a reliable source. 

It's like a lawmaker, declaring something a law and then expects the issue to be fixed. Someone who executes the law ? Please, it is written, thereby fixed.

 

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1 hour ago, Matthew. said:
Quote


Only the birth of her dragons amidst the fire and smoke of Khal Drogo's funeral pyre had spared Dany herself from being dragged back to Vaes Dothrak to live out the remainder of her days amongst the crones of the dosh khaleen.

The fire burned away my hair, but elsewise it did not touch me. It had been the same in Daznak's Pit. That much she could recall, though much of what followed was a haze
...
She ran a hand across her stubbly scalp where her hair had burned away, and felt more ants on her head, and one crawling down the back of her neck.


Thereafter, as she wanders the Dothraki Sea, her behavior seems a little... off:

Quote

She was very tired, and fresh blisters had appeared on both her feet, including a matched set upon her pinky toes. It must be from the way I walk, she thought, giggling.

...

Once I dreamed of flying, she thought, and now I've flown, and dream of stealing eggs. That made her laugh. "Men are mad and gods are madder," she told the grass, and the grass murmured its agreement.

...

"Drogon killed a little girl. Her name was … her name …" Dany could not recall the child's name. That made her so sad that she would have cried if all her tears had not been burned away. "I will never have a little girl. I was the Mother of Dragons."

Aye, the grass said, but you turned against your children.
...

Through the grass came a soft silvery tinkling.

Bells, Dany thought, smiling, remembering Khal Drogo, her sun-and-stars, and the bells he braided into his hair. When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, when the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves, when my womb quickens again and I bear a living child, Khal Drogo will return to me.


Really, there's almost too much from that chapter to go over without just posting a wall of quotes, but taking all of the above, and especially the trend of her 'conversations' with Quaithe/Jorah/Viserys about embracing "Fire and Blood," she might already have begun to go mad in earnest.

So, you pulled some interesting quotes. Reading them just now:

"She ran a hand across her stubbly scalp where her hair had burned away, and felt more ants on her head, and one crawling down the back of her neck."

I had to wonder, "are there really ants"? It's all real from Dany's POV, but what if the ants are part of her imagination?

This idea that fire has transformed her, yet again is interesting. We also get this:

"That made her so sad that she would have cried if all her tears had not been burned away."

Tears are a sign of sorrow and sadness, of gentleness, of regret, but here, Dany tells us her tears have burned away. Does that mean she perhaps is less capable of those emotions than she once was?

And here we get a nice look at the concept of bells meaning something to her, something that Book Dany wore and embraced as part of Dothraki custom, bells signalling the defeat of an enemy. This is something the show really failed to deliver on! I can totally see how GRRM might have told them that bells are important to Dany's endgame, but they delivered some slop that really makes no sense.

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15 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Even if it were portrayed as some kind of roundabout victory for the old god/3EC/whatever, I'm just not seeing it as a potential development that I would like--though I don't consider that an argument against King Bran, as disappointment is always an option.

True, but the problem with the Mummers' version is that we have an outcome without an apparent cause. GRRM's intended outcome may be the culmination of something quite powerful

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Even so, despite the surge of "Fisher King Bran" posts, I understand the skepticism; while putting him on the throne isn't impossible - he's set to become the most magically powerful character, he's technically the rightful King of the North (ergo, could already be a recognized monarch), and elective monarchy already has potential through the Great Council system -, putting him on the throne in a way that feels credible and satisfying to the reader still feels out of reach to me, especially with only two books left.

It makes much more sense for Bran to be King in the North. He is tied to the old gods of the north, the weirwoods that are prevalent in the north. He would be Robb's heir, as the eldest of two younger legitimate Stark brothers. If the kingdoms do split at the end of the story (which actually makes sense to me), and if Bran makes it back to Winterfell, this could be his arc. But probably still unable to have children, so then, something will be set up for heirs to follow him, I suppose. The north makes more sense for Bran's arc than Kings Landing. Yes, Bran did have high hopes for KL in the books, but those revolved around knighthood and becoming a kingsguard, not a king. Those were the hopes and dreams of a child, but if Bran will become a king, he will need to think like a man, not a child.

Edited by St Daga
spelling, yikes!

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51 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

@St Daga would love to be more down to earth but I just want TWOW so much! 

@JNR I agree there is no easy way to prove RLJ, through Bran? He is stuck in a Weirwood tree, through Howland? No one would believe a "frog eater", through Ashara/Wylla? Sigh not going to work too. 

Naughty and cruel  I know, but I can all too clearly recall a post in another place where one of the disciples fondly imagined a closing scene where Jon found himself drawn to Lyanna's tomb and while he was gazing reverently on her statue, Howland Reed stepped from the shadows, assured him that he looks so like his mother and finishes by saying "Come, your Highness, we have much to talk about..."

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1 minute ago, St Daga said:

It makes much more sense for Bran to be King in the North. He is tied to the old gods of the north, the weirwoods that are prevalent in the north. He would be Robb's heir, as the eldest of two younger brothers. If the kingdoms to split at the end of the story (which actually makes sense to me), then if Bran makes it back to Winterfell, this could be his arc. But probably still unable to have children, so then, something will be set up for heirs to follow him, I suppose. The north makes more sense for Bran's arc than Kings Landing. Yes, Bran did have high hopes for KL in the books, but those revolved around knighthood and becoming a kingsguard, not a king.

Robb sat Bran on the throne in Winterfell. It's in my signature. I had this for a year, maybe more. For me that was always foreshadowing and I always assumed Bran would follow Robb. The story, with the not yet declared king of winter, Bran's direwolf summer, the weirwood tree in Winterfell, is very handtailored to fit Bran.  

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2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

He has emphasised countless times this business of different roads to the same destination and obviously hasn't properly worked out yet exactly how he's going to get there himself.

As a result we can confidently expect only two things; first that certain named characters will make it through to the end and some even beyond it; secondly, given that the Mummers specifically spoke of character arcs rather than events, it would be unwise to speculate too far on those events presented by the Mummers.

Yes, the butterfly effect. And butterfly's that grow to become dragons...

I am not even convinced on the character's that live or die, based on what the show gave us, because I am not sold on Sansa's survival. I think either Jon or Dany will die, but I am not sure which way it will work out. My gut has told me Dany would die for a long time, but then I like Jon's character better, so I suppose I shade my own judgement. I'm not sure about Tyrion, either. 

I just hope we get answers some day!

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

[OK I'm biased, but when you've been subjected to the vitriol I've had thrown over me in that place for daring to doubt that orthodoxy - accused by one long forgotten clown of "hating Rhaegar" forsooth - the vindication of heresy represented by that lack of the return of the king outcome is palpable]

It's okay to be biased. We all are to some extent. That's human nature. I have not been part of these heresy discussions for nearly as long as you, since you are our Garth Greenhand, but I too have felt the wrath of some people on this forum, and how it can almost seem like a concentrated attack against you by a certain group of posters. I had actually left the W board for almost two years, because any discussion felt so futile. These Heresy threads and the openness to discuss and explore while not being mean or hateful are the only reasons I spend time on this forum any more. I am very thankful for the Heresy discussions! 

And just to ask, "why should we love Rhaegar, anyway?" What do we concretely know about him that makes us love his character? That makes him a good person? I certainly don't "hate" his character, but I don't "love" it, either!

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17 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Robb sat Bran on the throne in Winterfell. It's in my signature. I had this for a year, maybe more. For me that was always foreshadowing and I always assumed Bran would follow Robb. The story, with the not yet declared king of winter, Bran's direwolf summer, the weirwood tree in Winterfell, is very handtailored to fit Bran.  

Yes, Bran sits in the chair of the Stark's, while Robb stands behind him, hand on his shoulder, as if supporting his claim. That scene certainly stands out, and Tyrion was a witness to it all. Tyrion actually approaches Bran on the seat that cradled the past Kings in the North, almost as a supplicant, as a subject. This scene has always struck a cord with me.

However, Bran also relinquishes Winterfell to Theon, and it's quite formally done, and I think that might also be somewhat foretelling that Bran's place might not be as the final Stark who sit's in that seat of the Starks. Does a Stark with a Tully look fit the ending? Does the King of Winter have a direwolf named Summer? It's Nymeria who is named for a queen and Ghost who looks like a weirwood, not Summer; it is Jon and Arya who look like Starks, although I love that Bran is the first Stark POV that we get, and I find that important. Gosh knows, I hope we get some kind of a conclusion some day!

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Posted (edited)

Daenerys is, as she reminds herself, the Mother of Dragons. She has more in common with the dragonlords of Valyria than she does with Aegon and his sisters. The wards are unraveling and history, while repeating itself, is doing some wonky things like jumbling the Targaryen and Blackfyre historic events. Aegon and his sisters successfully conquered Westeros, but the four Blackfyre rebellions - five if you count the War of the Ninepenny Kings - all failed. I am expecting all of these events to be reversed somehow or jumbled together.

What if Young Griff is Aegon the Conqueror reborn, but instead of two sister wives, it's Daenerys that has two male allies? If Young Griff is Rhaegar's son Aegon, she is his aunt - not his sister - but would there be another trueborn Targaryen male to round out the three? I know many people would say "Jon" is the other one, but I just don't see it. I think one of the things that Bloodraven was able to do successfully was to prevent the third from ever being born. He did this by ending the False Spring with a return to Winter.

Meanwhile we have Euron and Victarion replaying some Targaryen and Blackfyre historical parts. Euron is mainly Bloodraven's parallel, but he could be repeating some of Daemon Blackfyre too since his plans include sitting on a throne. Victarion is Aegor Bittersteel Rivers, who is working on behalf of his "bastard" (I mean this rhetorically) brother. I fully expect them to attempt an invasion in the same vein as the Blackfyres, so while the Blackfyres failed five times, perhaps Euron and Victarion will succeed - at least for a little while?

Victarion thinks Euron wants Daenerys, but I wonder if Euron actually has his eye on Cersei? That could potentially pit Victarion against Euron. If Daenerys even comes to Westeros, I think her motivation will be to retrieve one or more of her dragons. If Victarion succeeds in riding a dragon by using a dragonbinding horn, he could become Dany's "bastard" brother.

Would Young Griff approach Dany or would Dany come to YG Aegon? She might consider him if he's successful in gathering substantial support of some major Westerosi Houses. I realize this is all pure speculation on my part, but a trio of Daenerys, Victarion, and YG Aegon could rain down fire and blood with no intention of ever unifying the seven kingdoms under a single throne. This would be the reverse of Aegon and his sister-wives.

Since Aegon and his sisters were successful, Dany and her "bastards" need to be defeated somehow. The first thing that comes to mind is the story of Torrhen Stark and how his bastard brother Brandon wanted to shoot weirwood arrows at Aegon's dragons. Will these be literal weirwood arrows, or will it turn out to be some other way that Bran, as the current greenseer, will use the weirwoods as a weapon? Maybe winter is the weapon? Queen Alysanne's dragon did not like the cold. It bit and snapped when it felt it, so perhaps allowing winter to invade from the north is the only way to protect the realm from another invasion by three dragons?

Edited by Feather Crystal

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2 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

@St Daga would love to be more down to earth but I just want TWOW so much! 

@JNR I agree there is no easy way to prove RLJ, through Bran? He is stuck in a Weirwood tree, through Howland? No one would believe a "frog eater", through Ashara/Wylla? Sigh not going to work too. 

I have speculated that Darkstar may know of Jon’s parentage as does possibly Doran Martell (or he suspects) There is a reason that Doran refers to him as the most dangerous man in Dorne

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Posted (edited)

As we know GRRM favored the Mummers with three "Holy Shit!" moments...

D&D        "Ok, well that's two, how about number three?"

GRRM      "Well you know that R+L=J theory?"

D&D        "Yeah, we'd figured that one out ages ago..."

GRRM      "Well it doesn't make any difference to anything."

D&D        "HOLY SHIT!!!"

 

And with that, good night all :commie:

Edited by Black Crow

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Posted (edited)
On 5/21/2019 at 3:29 PM, Black Crow said:

Lion of Night - he is a lion headed deity worshipped by the wealthy, he is tied to House Craster and the Rock, he is the father  of GoD and causes the Long Night after MMoL turns her back to planetos. He is Father and Stranger of the Faith, first head of the Trios, the destructive force. 

Jova Snow, sorry to take so long to comment.  I really couldn't find a lot about the gods mentioned in your OP in the World Book, that would give me any insight.  When I start comparing gods to gods and religion to religion;  I only confuse myself.  LOL.   But if we look at GRRM's comment about Noah's flood and Gilgamesh as supplied by JNR upthread;  these are essentially different accounts of the same flood event separated by time and culture.  And so we have Planetos' version of a massive flood breaking the Arm of Dorne.   Perhaps, an interesting biblical reference to "breaking the arm of the wicked", so they can do no harm.

Legend has it that the children of the forest (or more likely their old gods/greenseers) broke the arm:

Quote

Around twelve thousand years before the Aegon's Conquest, the First Men came to Westeros from Essos by crossing the Arm of Dorne. When the children of the forest and the First Men first went to war, the old songs say greenseers of the children used the hammer of the waters to make the seas rise and sweep away the land, shattering the Arm, in a futile attempt to end the invasion of the First Men. Although the Breaking of the Arm was successful, it was too late, for the First Men in Westeros had already crossed and the wars went on until the Pact.[1]  

I think, in part, they went to war because the First Men were burning and cutting down the Weirwood trees.  It's not clear if they had faces at that point; but the weirwood at Whitetree is probably a good example of the trees that the First Men initially encountered:
 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon II

Whitetree, the village was named on Sam's old maps. Jon did not think it much of a village. Four tumbledown one-room houses of unmortared stone surrounded an empty sheepfold and a well. The houses were roofed with sod, the windows shuttered with ragged pieces of hide. And above them loomed the pale limbs and dark red leaves of a monstrous great weirwood.

It was the biggest tree Jon Snow had ever seen, the trunk near eight feet wide, the branches spreading so far that the entire village was shaded beneath their canopy. The size did not disturb him so much as the face . . . the mouth especially, no simple carved slash, but a jagged hollow large enough to swallow a sheep.

Those are not sheep bones, though. Nor is that a sheep's skull in the ashes.

"An old tree." Mormont sat his horse, frowning. "Old," his raven agreed from his shoulder. "Old, old, old."

"And powerful." Jon could feel the power.

Thoren Smallwood dismounted beside the trunk, dark in his plate and mail. "Look at that face. Small wonder men feared them, when they first came to Westeros. I'd like to take an axe to the bloody thing myself."

 

This is not your run of the mill weirwood in it's age, size and power.  Thoren's reaction is to cut the bloody thing down.  It's the only weirwood we've been shown so far with a mouth large enough to place a sheep.  So it's this tree that was typical of the trees found when the First Men came to Essos and it's likely that tales of these trees were carried back to Essos along with stories of their godhood.

Tyrion first encounters Trios in Tyrosh:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VIII

She heard them now. "Sorry. You are sorry." Her lip was trembling, her cheeks were wet, her eyes were red-rimmed holes. "We left King's Landing that very night. My brother said it was for the best, before someone wondered if we'd had some part in the king's death and decided to torture us to find out. We went to Tyrosh first. My brother thought that would be far enough, but it wasn't. We knew a juggler there. For years and years he would juggle every day by the Fountain of the Drunken God. He was old, so his hands were not as deft as they had been, and sometimes he would drop his balls and chase them across the square, but the Tyroshi would laugh and throw him coins all the same. Then one morning we heard that his body had been found at the Temple of Trios. Trios has three heads, and there's a big statue of him beside the temple doors. The old man had been cut into three parts and pushed inside the threefold mouths of Trios. Only when the parts were sewn back together, his head was gone."

 

This is likely a depiction of three weirwood trees that are in some way connected as one.  The adherents of Trios seem to have some esoteric knowledge about these trees as well as knowledge of the breaking of the arm of Dorne. 

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The Sailor's Wife once told Arya Stark that the first head of Trio devours the dying and the reborn emerge from the third, but she did not recall the purpose of the middle head.[1]

The question becomes where have we seen weirwood trees with devouring mouths?  The first is at Whitetree, the second is the Black Gate and the third is the door to the House of Undying.

The Temples of Trios have been depicted as a single tower in Tyrosh and a triple tower in Braavos.  At Moat Cailin there are three remaining towers:
 

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The remaining three towers, which are covered with green moss[4] and white ghostskin,[6] command the causeway from all sides so that enemies must pass between them. Attackers face constant fire from the other towers should they attempt to attack any one tower, wading through chest deep water and crossing a moat full of lizard-lions.[4]

The Children's Tower is tall and slender. It has only half of the crenelations of its crown. Legend has it that the children of the forest called upon their gods here to send the hammer of the waters to smash the Neck.[4]

The Gatehouse Tower, the largest of the remaining towers, is squat and wide.[6] It is the only tower which still stands straight, even retaining some of the walls around it,[4] although a tree grows through its northern side.[6] The tower's hall of dark stone is spotted with lichen and has a high, drafty ceiling. Within the hall is a massive carved table, also of stone.[6]

The Drunkard's Tower is so named due to its great lean. It stands where the south and west walls once met.[4]

 

There also seems to be some correlation between the towers at Moat Cailin and the trees that Jon sees on his way to Moles Town:

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon V

The Lord Steward led the way. Jon rode a few yards back, Dolorous Edd Tollett at his side. Half a mile south of Castle Black, Edd urged his garron close to Jon's and said, "M'lord? Look up there. The big drunkard on the hill."

The drunkard was an ash tree, twisted sideways by centuries of wind. And now it had a face. A solemn mouth, a broken branch for a nose, two eyes carved deep into the trunk, gazing north up the kingsroad, toward the castle and the Wall.

The wildlings brought their gods with them after all. Jon was not surprised. Men do not give up their gods so easily. The whole pageant that Lady Melisandre had orchestrated beyond the Wall suddenly seemed as empty as a mummer's farce. "Looks a bit like you, Edd," he said, trying to make light of it.

Jon glanced back at the face, wondering who had carved it. He had posted guards around Mole's Town, both to keep his crows away from the wildling women and to keep the free folk from slipping off southward to raid. Whoever had carved up the ash had eluded his sentries, plainly. And if one man could slip through the cordon, others could as well. I could double the guard again, he thought sourly. Waste twice as many men, men who might otherwise be walking the Wall.

The wagons continued on their slow way south through frozen mud and blowing snow. A mile farther on, they came upon a second face, carved into a chestnut tree that grew beside an icy stream, where its eyes could watch the old plank bridge that spanned its flow. "Twice as much trouble," announced Dolorous Edd.

The chestnut was leafless and skeletal, but its bare brown limbs were not empty. On a low branch overhanging the stream a raven sat hunched, its feathers ruffled up against the cold. When it spied Jon it spread its wings and gave a scream. When he raised his fist and whistled, the big black bird came flapping down, crying, "Corn, corn, corn."

Just north of Mole's Town they came upon the third watcher, carved into the huge oak that marked the village perimeter, its deep eyes fixed upon the kingsroad. That is not a friendly face, Jon Snow reflected. The faces that the First Men and the children of the forest had carved into the weirwoods in eons past had stern or savage visages more oft than not, but the great oak looked especially angry, as if it were about to tear its roots from the earth and come roaring after them. Its wounds are as fresh as the wounds of the men who carved it.

Jon refers to these trees as watchers: a drunk, an old man sporting Mormont's raven and one who is wounded and especially angry - The Drunken Tower, the Children's Tower and the Gatehouse Tower personified. 

The Drunk sounds very like Tyrion, a giant among men and I don't think its a coincidence that Trios is located in proximity to the Drunken Fountain. We know of two weirwoods with associated wells - the Black Gate and Winterfell.  Is the old man Mormont or Bloodraven?

I'm not sure what this tells us about Trios and it's towers, but there seems to be a tenuous connection in what stands for an historical record. My guess is that the Black Gate is the middle head of Trios since it's been forgotten and nobody knows of it's existence or what it does (to those who pass through).

It's one of three magical doorways. The other two are the door to the House of Undying and the doors to the House of Black and White which Dany also encounters in the HoU before seeing the splendor of wizards.

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Dany left him behind, entering a stairwell. She began to climb. Before long her legs were aching. She recalled that the House of the Undying Ones had seemed to have no towers.

Finally the stair opened. To her right, a set of wide wooden doors had been thrown open. They were fashioned of ebony and weirwood, the black and white grains swirling and twisting in strange interwoven patterns. They were very beautiful, yet somehow frightening. The blood of the dragon must not be afraid. Dany said a quick prayer, begging the Warrior for courage and the Dothraki horse god for strength. She made herself walk forward.

Beyond the doors was a great hall and a splendor of wizards. Some wore sumptuous robes of ermine, ruby velvet, and cloth of gold. Others fancied elaborate armor studded with gemstones, or tall pointed hats speckled with stars. There were women among them, dressed in gowns of surpassing loveliness. Shafts of sunlight slanted through windows of stained glass, and the air was alive with the most beautiful music she had ever heard.

 

It's possible that Trios refers only to the House of Undying where one enters and exits through the same door but must also pass the middle doors to the undying of Qaarth.  

 

 

 

Edited by LynnS

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