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Black Crow

Heresy 222 vindication

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14 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I love this idea of "half a Stranger" for Euron. The idea of the dead fit's Euron well. Why half a greenseer for Tyrion? I can never tell if his "dreams" of having his own dragon are actual dreams or just wishes. The green eye must come from the Lannister blood, but I guess Jaime and Cersei have the same eyes and have some interesting dreams.

 

This does make quite a bit of sense. Though the Tully's have only been in charge of the riverlands since Aegon's conquest, they show some interesting connections. Perhaps there was some reason that Aegon picked them over other houses in the riverlands? House Tully does have some possible connections to House Mudd, an ancient First Men house that might link back to Jenny of Oldstones. Do we know if Jenny ever had dreams? I think the small folk referred to her as a witch, which might be important.

 

 

The half a stranger bit would also coincide with what I had just mentioned - that he has undergone a ritual that doesn’t quite make him an Other but not fully human either

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, St Daga said:

I love this idea of "half a Stranger" for Euron. The idea of the dead fit's Euron well. Why half a greenseer for Tyrion? I can never tell if his "dreams" of having his own dragon are actual dreams or just wishes. The green eye must come from the Lannister blood, but I guess Jaime and Cersei have the same eyes and have some interesting dreams. 

Well because of his two-headed dream and because he 'feels' or senses certain things:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Tyrion I

Somewhere in the great stone maze of Winterfell, a wolf howled. The sound hung over the castle like a flag of mourning.

Tyrion Lannister looked up from his books and shivered, though the library was snug and warm. Something about the howling of a wolf took a man right out of his here and now and left him in a dark forest of the mind, running naked before the pack.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion VI

Tyrion remembered a cold night under the stars when he'd stood beside the boy Jon Snow and a great white wolf atop the Wall at the end of the world, gazing out at the trackless dark beyond. He had felt—what?—something, to be sure, a dread that had cut like that frigid northern wind. A wolf had howled off in the night, and the sound had sent a shiver through him.

Don't be a fool, he told himself. A wolf, a wind, a dark forest, it meant nothing. And yet . . . He had come to have a liking for old Jeor Mormont during his time at Castle Black. "I trust that the Old Bear survived this attack?"

And because he does whatever he can to avoid dreaming, usually by getting drunk out of his mind.  Otherwise he stays up all night.
 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion IV

Griff made no reply. You will die before you drink, his pale eyes seemed to say. Tyrion had drunk himself blind his first night on the Shy Maid. The next day he awoke with dragons fighting in his skull. Griff took one look at him retching over the side of the poleboat, and said, "You are done with drink."

"Wine helps me sleep," Tyrion had protested. Wine drowns my dreams, he might have said.

 

 

Edited by LynnS

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Is it possible for Varys to be an Unsullied? He says his manhood was burned in flames for some Rhllor magic but Unsullied burns their cut manhoods on the altar of the Lady of Spears, what if her flames burn blue? What if these blue flames are connected to the Rotten Heart of HotU and it is the source of the sound in the flames? Since Rhllor uses images to communicate I would connect him to Silent God and his Stones. Varys being an Unsullied will explain why Aerys called for him as he needed protection, and it is possible why Illyrio and Varys are deeply connected as Illyrio has his own Unsullied, as I suspect Lyseni Sallador having them too maybe Mezio Mahr (?) is one? Was this idea discussed before? 

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Well because of his two-headed dream and because he 'feels' or senses certain things:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Tyrion I

Somewhere in the great stone maze of Winterfell, a wolf howled. The sound hung over the castle like a flag of mourning.

Tyrion Lannister looked up from his books and shivered, though the library was snug and warm. Something about the howling of a wolf took a man right out of his here and now and left him in a dark forest of the mind, running naked before the pack.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion VI

Tyrion remembered a cold night under the stars when he'd stood beside the boy Jon Snow and a great white wolf atop the Wall at the end of the world, gazing out at the trackless dark beyond. He had felt—what?—something, to be sure, a dread that had cut like that frigid northern wind. A wolf had howled off in the night, and the sound had sent a shiver through him.

Don't be a fool, he told himself. A wolf, a wind, a dark forest, it meant nothing. And yet . . . He had come to have a liking for old Jeor Mormont during his time at Castle Black. "I trust that the Old Bear survived this attack?"

And because he does whatever he can to avoid dreaming, usually by getting drunk out of his mind.  Otherwise he stays up all night.
 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion IV

Griff made no reply. You will die before you drink, his pale eyes seemed to say. Tyrion had drunk himself blind his first night on the Shy Maid. The next day he awoke with dragons fighting in his skull. Griff took one look at him retching over the side of the poleboat, and said, "You are done with drink."

"Wine helps me sleep," Tyrion had protested. Wine drowns my dreams, he might have said.

 

These are great quotes. I think I am not as in tune to Tyrion as a character as I am to other characters, and I am not sure why.  Part of me always remembers the way Ghost initially acted around Tyrion, and then later, Grey Wind, Summer and Shaggy. So it makes sense that there is something in him that is perhaps untrustworthy, but I don't trust Sansa, and I find myself quite interested in her thoughts and dreams. That quote about drowning his dreams in wine is great! Maybe that is what Jon is doing up on the wall in Dance, because he seems to be drinking more and more!

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22 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

Is it possible for Varys to be an Unsullied? He says his manhood was burned in flames for some Rhllor magic but Unsullied burns their cut manhoods on the altar of the Lady of Spears, what if her flames burn blue? What if these blue flames are connected to the Rotten Heart of HotU and it is the source of the sound in the flames? Since Rhllor uses images to communicate I would connect him to Silent God and his Stones. Varys being an Unsullied will explain why Aerys called for him as he needed protection, and it is possible why Illyrio and Varys are deeply connected as Illyrio has his own Unsullied, as I suspect Lyseni Sallador having them too maybe Mezio Mahr (?) is one? Was this idea discussed before? 

I have seen the idea of Varys being an Unsullied trainee before, but usually the idea is one of a trainee who fails. In my head, I imagine most of the unsullied who fail are dead, so that has always held me back. But what if he was pulled from training for a reason? Because of who he is, perhaps, or something within him that is important?

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35 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I have seen the idea of Varys being an Unsullied trainee before, but usually the idea is one of a trainee who fails. In my head, I imagine most of the unsullied who fail are dead, so that has always held me back. But what if he was pulled from training for a reason? Because of who he is, perhaps, or something within him that is important?

Well I don't think he failed but rose in power when he served Mopatis and/or Saan family, I would say Saan's would have more interest in Westeros as they were part of Nine Penny King's but is it possible Saan family was founded by Rogares after they lost power in Lys? 

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15 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

Well I don't think he failed but rose in power when he served Mopatis and/or Saan family, I would say Saan's would have more interest in Westeros as they were part of Nine Penny King's but is it possible Saan family was founded by Rogares after they lost power in Lys? 

I’m less inclined to the Varys/Unsullied theory. I take his origin at face value but I am intrigued as to why he was the one bought by the sorcerer. Why him? I know there are theories that he may be of Targaryen/Blackfyre lineage. 

Also Aerys wanted him not for physical protection but because he heard of his gift of procuring secrets and his paranoia made him want to know who was out to get him.

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23 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I’m less inclined to the Varys/Unsullied theory. I take his origin at face value but I am intrigued as to why he was the one bought by the sorcerer. Why him? I know there are theories that he may be of Targaryen/Blackfyre lineage. 

Also Aerys wanted him not for physical protection but because he heard of his gift of procuring secrets and his paranoia made him want to know who was out to get him.

I don't think there was a sorcerer actually, he burned his manhood at the altar of Lady of Spears not because he has important blood or something. I would say Grey Worm being the most powerful person in final Grand Council of the s h o w although they fucked up to notice that proves Unsullied could be more than mindless servants. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Jova Snow said:

I don't think there was a sorcerer actually, he burned his manhood at the altar of Lady of Spears not because he has important blood or something. I would say Grey Worm being the most powerful person in final Grand Council of the s h o w although they fucked up to notice that proves Unsullied could be more than mindless servants. 

Oh I am not saying that the Unsullied are mindless. Far from it. But given Varys behavior has never been associated with physical danger (being able to fight and defend, etc.) I don’t find him associated with the Unsullied, who are a more combative force.

Edited by Lady Rhodes
Clarification

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9 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Oh I am not saying that the Unsullied are mindless. Far from it. But given Varys behavior has never been associated with physical danger (being able to fight and defend, etc.) I don’t find him associated with the Unsullied, who are a more combative force.

But he was able to disguise himself as a guard at the Blackcells for years without anyone knowing, and he knows how to use a crossbow at least. 

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31 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

But he was able to disguise himself as a guard at the Blackcells for years without anyone knowing, and he knows how to use a crossbow at least. 

Fair points! I think it is safe to say that many people in this story are not who they initially appear to be

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9 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Fair points! I think it is safe to say that many people in this story are not who they initially appear to be

Yeah it is a theme now if I made list of possible secret identities I believe they would be

• Jenny of Oldstones is  descendant of Aemond and Alys 

• Tom of Sevenstreams is Howland Reed

• House Ladybright of Dorne are descendants of Maegor Brightflame

• Lady of Leaves is Wenda the White Fawn, she is either a Blackfyre princess named after Wendwater Battle or from the Wendish Town

• Sallador Saan is Illyrio Mopatis (because its past 3am here) 

• Ashara Dayne is Shaena Targaryen

• Serra Mopatis if she is a real person, is  descendant of Saera Targaryen, along with Serenei of Lys and Shiera Seastar

• Jaqen H'ghar is Daario Naharis is Daemon II Targaryen 

• Qhorin Halfhand is Gerold Hightower

Honestly X is Y, is  treasure box for me, until TWOW comes up every identity is questionable. 

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4 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

Is it possible for Varys to be an Unsullied? He says his manhood was burned in flames for some Rhllor magic but Unsullied burns their cut manhoods on the altar of the Lady of Spears, what if her flames burn blue? What if these blue flames are connected to the Rotten Heart of HotU and it is the source of the sound in the flames? Since Rhllor uses images to communicate I would connect him to Silent God and his Stones. Varys being an Unsullied will explain why Aerys called for him as he needed protection, and it is possible why Illyrio and Varys are deeply connected as Illyrio has his own Unsullied, as I suspect Lyseni Sallador having them too maybe Mezio Mahr (?) is one? Was this idea discussed before? 

I've never considered that he might be Unsullied...

The fact that he spent time working on a Mummer's Cog, suggest to me that he was undergoing a training regimen not unlike Arya's training with the House of Black & White. Actually, there's quite a bit of foreshadowing that, in my opinion, tie Varys to the Faceless Men...

--

For Varys to be in bed, or linked to both the Faceless Men & the Unsullied seems like it would be a bit much, even for GRRM's unique use to layering.

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26 minutes ago, Mullocose said:

I've never considered that he might be Unsullied...

The fact that he spent time working on a Mummer's Cog, suggest to me that he was undergoing a training regimen not unlike Arya's training with the House of Black & White. Actually, there's quite a bit of foreshadowing that, in my opinion, tie Varys to the Faceless Men...

--

For Varys to be in bed, or linked to both the Faceless Men & the Unsullied seems like it would be a bit much, even for GRRM's unique use to layering.

I never connected Varys to Faceless Men actually, although I did connected him to sorrowful men of Qarth along with XXD

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6 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Fair points! I think it is safe to say that many people in this story are not who they initially appear to be

I think that would certainly apply to Varys, or perhaps Rugen and notwithstanding the Mummers' version I'd go so far as to say there is room to doubt whether he is really a eunuch - there is after all that matter of his voice deepening in that final conversation with Ser Kevan, and of course his life as Rugen - with his perfume etc being used to digcuise that "real" physical form

Faceless Man? Very likely. but not necessarily...

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1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

I think that would certainly apply to Varys, or perhaps Rugen and notwithstanding the Mummers' version I'd go so far as to say there is room to doubt whether he is really a eunuch - there is after all that matter of his voice deepening in that final conversation with Ser Kevan, and of course his life as Rugen - with his perfume etc being used to digcuise that "real" physical form

Faceless Man? Very likely. but not necessarily...

That scene is one of the most jarring in the entire books (which, I know, is a big claim). It was written expressly to get the reader's spidey senses going and it succeeded well.

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9 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

Yeah it is a theme now if I made list of possible secret identities I believe they would be

• Jenny of Oldstones is  descendant of Aemond and Alys 

• Tom of Sevenstreams is Howland Reed

• House Ladybright of Dorne are descendants of Maegor Brightflame

• Lady of Leaves is Wenda the White Fawn, she is either a Blackfyre princess named after Wendwater Battle or from the Wendish Town

• Sallador Saan is Illyrio Mopatis (because its past 3am here) 

• Ashara Dayne is Shaena Targaryen

• Serra Mopatis if she is a real person, is  descendant of Saera Targaryen, along with Serenei of Lys and Shiera Seastar

• Jaqen H'ghar is Daario Naharis is Daemon II Targaryen 

• Qhorin Halfhand is Gerold Hightower

Honestly X is Y, is  treasure box for me, until TWOW comes up every identity is questionable. 

Very tinfoily but something that I have begun to consider is that Howland Reed is hiding someone or something  at Greywater Watch. I am wondering if it may be Rhaegar or his armor. If memory serves me, his body was not recovered after the Trident.

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4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Faceless Man? Very likely. but not necessarily...

Or a Sorrowful Man?

The Sorrowful Men are an ancient guild of assassins operating on the city of Qarth. Each one whispers "I am so sorry" to their victims before they kill them.[1]

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Epilogue

Kevan Lannister tried to cry out … to his guards, his wife, his brother … but the words would not come. Blood dribbled from his mouth. He shuddered violently.

"I am sorry." Varys wrung his hands. "You are suffering, I know, yet here I stand going on like some silly old woman. Time to make an end to it." The eunuch pursed his lips and gave a little whistle.

 

 

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GRRM has said Varys and Melisandre are the most misunderstood characters.  My question is whether GRRM intends them to be misunderstood, or whether readers just take them a certain way.  To me they are both straightforward.

Varys was a slave boy, a sorcerer recognized him as having 'special' blood - either showing Targaryen traits or by magical means.  Buys the boy for his sacrifice, and then is done with him.  I do think Varys lied about not understanding the voice, but otherwise is who he says he is. 

Now, what game he's playing is a different question.  I think he's a Blackfyre and determined to put a Blackfyre on the throne - but there are a lot of different ideas.  I think it is safe to say he isn't out for the good of the realm as he says he is, or at least, isn't open to the realm being ruled well by Lannisters.  I think it is also safe to say he isn't trying to put himself on the throne, or seeking more power for himself than he already has.

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37 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

GRRM has said Varys and Melisandre are the most misunderstood characters.  My question is whether GRRM intends them to be misunderstood, or whether readers just take them a certain way.  To me they are both straightforward.

Varys was a slave boy, a sorcerer recognized him as having 'special' blood - either showing Targaryen traits or by magical means.  Buys the boy for his sacrifice, and then is done with him.  I do think Varys lied about not understanding the voice, but otherwise is who he says he is. 

Now, what game he's playing is a different question.  I think he's a Blackfyre and determined to put a Blackfyre on the throne - but there are a lot of different ideas.  I think it is safe to say he isn't out for the good of the realm as he says he is, or at least, isn't open to the realm being ruled well by Lannisters.  I think it is also safe to say he isn't trying to put himself on the throne, or seeking more power for himself than he already has.

See I am less inclined to think that of Varys.  To me, Varys and Littlefinger are two sides of a coin.  Varys is looking out for the people of the realm (now, will his choices always work out the way he thinks? That is another story.  But I think his intention is the good of the people of the realm.)  Littlefinger, on the other hand, is out for himself. Two advisors with very different motives for their actions.

Now, something to consider. The show portrayed the horror of Daenerys being willing to sacrifice thousands of innocents for the sake of the throne, and Varys' willing to commit treason against her to stop her.  But, in truth, how different is it from Varys acting at least in part to orchestrate the entire fall of the Baratheon/Lannister crown?  We know he was working towards it in some regard from Arya's chapter in Game and wanting to put Griff on the throne in Dance.

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