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Heresy 222 vindication

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 Cersei justifies killing Melara to stop the prophecy, but I wonder if she still would have done it if Melara never asked about Jamie.   Cersei is not honest with herself, especially with anything that might cause her pain. 

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I think Cersei killed her for both reasons.

It's sad though...Cersei killing her friend and watching her drown. Are we sure that Cersei is not just a narcissist but a sociopath?

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I am sorry to switch gears here, but a topic just appeared in another thread that I thought we may be able to discuss here.  Besides seeing Varys at the end of Dance, he is absent throughout Feast and Dance. Either we don't see what he is up to or we don't realize it is him if we were exposed to him.  GRRM has let characters lie in wait before (Theon being absent throughout Storm and Feast comes to mind)  but I find it odd for Varys.  Any thoughts to where he is?

I suggested in the previous thread that he must be in Westeros or perhaps Braavos.  We don't see sight of him in Pentos or on the Shy Maid (two places he would be likely to be given that he is associated with Illyrio and the Young Griff plot) and I don't see where he could be in the mess (er, knot) that is Slaver's Bay.

We have no real textual support of him being in Braavos, but I am intrigued with the idea of him being there, given that Arya, Samwell, Gilly and Daeron were all there.  Again, it is more personal enjoyment of the idea of him being there than any textual support (though if anyone can find some to support it, huzzah!)

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23 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Did you notice that the outcomes began inverting around the time that dragons were born? I've got Mance Raydar listed before Dany's dragons, but he should be after her. He was successful, while Raymun failed. The only reason why Lyanna died while Elia survived her attack, was because the return to winter caused her destiny to get mixed up with Ashara's. The tourney at Harrenhal was ground zero for the lightning strike. She and Ashara were "Freaky Friday-ed" and they swapped places. Not literally or spiritually. Just their places on the wheel of time. Ashara's destiny was to die. The jumping off the tower is symbolic of death. Towers are inversions to wells and wells are entrances to Hades and the underworld. When Arianne brought Myrcella to a well, it was symbolic of death, but she was attacked by Darkstar. His given name is a parallel to both Gerold Hightower, who was with Elia when she was attacked, and Arthur Dayne, who led the detachment to bring the Kingswood Brotherhood to justice. Lyanna suffered Ashara's death, while Ashara is just pretending to be dead in the crypts like the mother of Bael's child.

Great post! I like the fact you place Euron's age at thirteen during HH because after my tinfoil Shaena/Ashara post I also realized Ashara being thirteen may answer some questions 

• Why a lady seen as a grand beauty was yet to be bethored? 

• Why there wasn't any love interest of Ashara beside Ned? She danced with Arthur, Oberyn, Connington and none was to wed her. 

• Why we are told Ashara fall in love with Ned when he never thinks about her. She would be like Jeyne Poole who fall in love with Beric Dondarrion. 

• Why Ned had problems with rumors about her being Jon's mother, his own sixteen years old sister supposedly died in child birth, he would see Ashara as another child woman. 

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1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I am sorry to switch gears here, but a topic just appeared in another thread that I thought we may be able to discuss here.  Besides seeing Varys at the end of Dance, he is absent throughout Feast and Dance. Either we don't see what he is up to or we don't realize it is him if we were exposed to him.  GRRM has let characters lie in wait before (Theon being absent throughout Storm and Feast comes to mind)  but I find it odd for Varys.  Any thoughts to where he is?

I suggested in the previous thread that he must be in Westeros or perhaps Braavos.  We don't see sight of him in Pentos or on the Shy Maid (two places he would be likely to be given that he is associated with Illyrio and the Young Griff plot) and I don't see where he could be in the mess (er, knot) that is Slaver's Bay.

We have no real textual support of him being in Braavos, but I am intrigued with the idea of him being there, given that Arya, Samwell, Gilly and Daeron were all there.  Again, it is more personal enjoyment of the idea of him being there than any textual support (though if anyone can find some to support it, huzzah!)

I wouldn't rule out him hiding as a character we didn't recognize.   However Feast and Dance take place at the same time, with few characters  in both.  He is present at the start of Feast and end of Dance, so his absence could simply be the way the story got split. 

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7 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I thought the high pitched voice was common knowledge, but I never heard of long limbs.  If this is correct, I wonder if GRRM knows it.  We don't see any description about the Unsullied having unusually long limbs, and no reason to believe they are all lying about being castrated.

I did look for Vary's voice, and we don't have much, we do have him giggle like a little girl, then this.

So we don't know if it is high pitched or not, but Varys seems to have a distinctive voice he may be disguising.

For Varys's castration story to be true, it isn't necessary he is castrated before puberty, although that seems to make the most sense.  He certainly was old enough to know what was going on, and young enough that the majority of what shape his life was after.

We do know Varys is a mummer, though. The ability to change timbre, speaking style or presence isn't that notable. IMO, what would be notable would be to identify a default voice. I think the Kevan interaction does this. It might be the only time we've ever seen Varys talking to his opponent just after a checkmate, acting sans motive. The default voice is the character exposition much more than looking at the discrepancies because that simply posits that he's a good actor.

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9 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

• Why a lady seen as a grand beauty was yet to be bethored?

What is the common age for betrothals?  If memory serves, Catelyn was much older (closer 15 or 16) and was a bit shocked at Sansa's young betrothal at 11. 

10 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

• Why there wasn't any love interest of Ashara beside Ned? She danced with Arthur, Oberyn, Connington and none was to wed her.

Could this fit into the Southron Ambitions plot? Were the Dayne's involved?  Something that I have suggested before is that I think there is more to the Starfall storyline that we are led to believe.  I believe that Gerold Dayne/Darkstar may know of Jon Snow's parentage - I believe R+L=J but this could apply to any theory to which you subscribe - and/or what occurred at the Tower of Joy.  Some other posters and I determined that Darkstar would be around 10-12 during Ned's trip through High Hermitage to Starfall to return Dawn to House Dayne.  That is certainly old enough to suss out something like "huh, two guys and a baby...something is off".  I suspect that Doran Martell may know something of this as well (though I don't think Oberyn may have been privileged with this information) and this is why he calls Darkstar "the most dangerous man in Dorne"  I know some people have suggested that Doran said this because he knows of Arianne's plot to crown Myrcella, but I think there is more to it.  From the way he speaks, Doran seems to be distrustful of him entirely, chiding her for including him specifically in the foolish plan in the first place.   We also know that the Dayne's named Edric in homage to Ned - odd for them to do so, considering he killed their "star" son and their daughter supposedly committed suicide over it.  Again, leads me to believe there is more to the story.  I am of the belief that Ashara is alive - possibly Septa Lemore, but unsure to commit to that.

31 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

Why we are told Ashara fall in love with Ned when he never thinks about her

That could be that Ned has grown to love Catelyn and doesn't dream of past loves.  Ned doesn't strike me as someone to do that, anyway. You know?

 

29 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

what if he was a mummer? 

In Braavos? Interesting!  The things I am thinking that he would find out if he were in Braavos -

1) Arya is alive.  This could have implications if he knows (which I am sure he does) that Ramsey Snow is marrying "Arya".

2) The Iron Bank has been frequenting the Wall and the North.

3) Sam, Gilly, and Aemon have come through Braavos.  He may hear of Jon becoming Lord Commander (I can't recall if he has already disappeared from King's Landing when that happens), the baby switch, Aemon hearing of Daenerys, etc.
 

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27 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

I wouldn't rule out him hiding as a character we didn't recognize.   However Feast and Dance take place at the same time, with few characters  in both.  He is present at the start of Feast and end of Dance, so his absence could simply be the way the story got split. 

I thought he went missing at the start of Feast.  Cersei calls for him when she finds Tywin dead, but they say he is gone.  Where is he featured?   While I realize they both occur during the same timeframe, he is still missing for quite a large chunk of time.  I am with you that he may be someone mentioned but not recognized.

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17 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

 

I thought he went missing at the start of Feast.  Cersei calls for him when she finds Tywin dead, but they say he is gone.  Where is he featured?   While I realize they both occur during the same timeframe, he is still missing for quite a large chunk of time.  I am with you that he may be someone mentioned but not recognized.

The obvious person would be Haldon Halfmaester in my opinion. Varys vanishes much like Tyrion. And much like Tyrion, his contact person could be Illyrio in Pentos. And Varys returns in the epilogue after Halfmaester in takes the position of maester in Griffin's roast. 

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1 hour ago, Jova Snow said:

Great post! I like the fact you place Euron's age at thirteen during HH because after my tinfoil Shaena/Ashara post I also realized Ashara being thirteen may answer some questions 

• Why a lady seen as a grand beauty was yet to be bethored? 

• Why there wasn't any love interest of Ashara beside Ned? She danced with Arthur, Oberyn, Connington and none was to wed her. 

• Why we are told Ashara fall in love with Ned when he never thinks about her. She would be like Jeyne Poole who fall in love with Beric Dondarrion. 

• Why Ned had problems with rumors about her being Jon's mother, his own sixteen years old sister supposedly died in child birth, he would see Ashara as another child woman. 

Thanks for the compliment! 

I think Ashara and Lyanna were around the same age, but older than Euron.

The reason why Ashara wasn't betrothed and became a handmaiden is because everybody knew she was pregnant. Barristan Selmy recalled that Ashara had been "dishonored" and had "turned to Stark". I believe Robert Baratheon was trying to seduce Ashara during the tourney at Harrenhal, but was stopped by Ned. That encounter led to a romance between Ned and Ashara - and to put it delicately - they "danced". Lollys Stokeworth is a parallel of Ashara at court. Lollys "danced" (read "raped") by so many men that she didn't know who impregnated her. Nobody wanted her and she hung around Cersei's court until Bronn was persuaded to take her and become a landed knight. 

Later on in the books it's mentioned briefly that Ashara gave birth to a girl, but that it died, and her death combined with Arthur's pushed her to commit suicide. So it seems to be common knowledge that she was pregnant and gave birth, even if I doubt the sex of the child.

I believe Ned did love Ashara, but married for duty. This is an inverted parallel to his son Robb who failed to do his duty and married for love. Just because we don't have any internal dialogue doesn't mean he never loved her. When we meet Ned he's 35 years old - long enough to let those kind of thoughts die. But I think his anger towards Catelyn when she asked him about Ashara indicates it was a sore subject for him many years ago.

I seriously doubt Lyanna gave birth to any child, because I believe she died of injuries. She had been raped multiple times by Gregor Clegane and all of his men, and I think Robert Baratheon knew about it. He was lying when he accused Rhaegar, but he wasn't lying when he said she was raped multiple times.

44 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

What is the common age for betrothals?  If memory serves, Catelyn was much older (closer 15 or 16) and was a bit shocked at Sansa's young betrothal at 11. 

Could this fit into the Southron Ambitions plot? Were the Dayne's involved?  Something that I have suggested before is that I think there is more to the Starfall storyline that we are led to believe.  I believe that Gerold Dayne/Darkstar may know of Jon Snow's parentage - I believe R+L=J but this could apply to any theory to which you subscribe - and/or what occurred at the Tower of Joy.  Some other posters and I determined that Darkstar would be around 10-12 during Ned's trip through High Hermitage to Starfall to return Dawn to House Dayne.  That is certainly old enough to suss out something like "huh, two guys and a baby...something is off".  I suspect that Doran Martell may know something of this as well (though I don't think Oberyn may have been privileged with this information) and this is why he calls Darkstar "the most dangerous man in Dorne"  I know some people have suggested that Doran said this because he knows of Arianne's plot to crown Myrcella, but I think there is more to it.  From the way he speaks, Doran seems to be distrustful of him entirely, chiding her for including him specifically in the foolish plan in the first place.   We also know that the Dayne's named Edric in homage to Ned - odd for them to do so, considering he killed their "star" son and their daughter supposedly committed suicide over it.  Again, leads me to believe there is more to the story.  I am of the belief that Ashara is alive - possibly Septa Lemore, but unsure to commit to that.

That could be that Ned has grown to love Catelyn and doesn't dream of past loves.  Ned doesn't strike me as someone to do that, anyway. You know?

 

In Braavos? Interesting!  The things I am thinking that he would find out if he were in Braavos -

1) Arya is alive.  This could have implications if he knows (which I am sure he does) that Ramsey Snow is marrying "Arya".

2) The Iron Bank has been frequenting the Wall and the North.

3) Sam, Gilly, and Aemon have come through Braavos.  He may hear of Jon becoming Lord Commander (I can't recall if he has already disappeared from King's Landing when that happens), the baby switch, Aemon hearing of Daenerys, etc.
 

IMO "southron ambitions" refers to Rickard Stark's interest in adopting Andal customs like knighthood as well as marrying into Andal houses - and not the common belief that there was some northern conspiracy to boot Aerys off his throne. I've mentioned this theory before and I've also written an essay about it. You can read my thoughts by clicking on this sentence. 

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Southron ambitions always confused me.  Rickard already had the North, and ambitions implies he was seeking more than he had.  If he wanted to be King of the North and not just warden, that is ambition, but not Southron.  We have evidence the Great Houses were conspiring together, which makes no sense if his ambition was the Iron Throne. 

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The Tully’s weren’t a part of the Rebellion until after Ned married Catelyn and Jon married Lysa. Up until then it was just Arryn, Stark, and Baratheon, and the only one that seemed to make the decision to start that war was Jon Arryn. Where’s the conspiracy?

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We've discussed this before.  Besides Jon Aryn marrying Lisa Tully, Brandon was engaged to Catelyn, and Robert married Cersei.  Before that point,  marriages between Great Houses was rare to nonexistent.  Great Houses always married their vassals.   

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1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

We've discussed this before.  Besides Jon Aryn marrying Lisa Tully, Brandon was engaged to Catelyn, and Robert married Cersei.  Before that point,  marriages between Great Houses was rare to nonexistent.  Great Houses always married their vassals.   

Brandon was promised to Catelyn six years prior to the Rebellion. That’s an awful long time to plan a conspiracy. Ned was a boy and stayed with Jon Arryn long enough to squire and train to be a knight, leaving when he was considered full grown. IMO too many years had passed. Nobody plays a game that long without taking action. In fact, nobody made a move until Brandon and Rickard died.

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@Lady Rhodes Catelyn was twelve when she was bethored to Brandon, Ashara's sister Allyria was eleven or twelve, Myrcella was nine and Arya was eight if I am not wrong. 

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Its worth bearing in mind that GRRM likes his multiple meanings and the story we're discussing is the Song of Ice and Fire. Mostly this is interpreted in contemporary terms; first in the [obvious] literal, magical conflict, the coming Long Night and so on; secondly there's the War of the Targaryen succession - the return of Danaerys the Dragonlord and the likely damp squib of R+L=J; but thirdly, both of these seem to have their immediate origins in another song of Ice and Fire; a conspiracy by the old families of Westeros [representing the old magic or Ice] to expel the Targaryens [Fire] and if Westeros was to remain a single political entity afterwards it would need, or at least offer the opportunity, a new High King - although I've no doubt that had Ice prevailed over Fire, the Iron Throne itself would have been destroyed.

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Posted (edited)

What does southron ambitions even mean ? That Rickard had ambitions in the south or that he had ambitions of the south ? In his south or south of his land. Is it large scale or small scale ? The three sisters are south. Moat Cailin is south (of Winterfell). 

Edited by SirArthur

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3 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

@Lady Rhodes Catelyn was twelve when she was bethored to Brandon, Ashara's sister Allyria was eleven or twelve, Myrcella was nine and Arya was eight if I am not wrong. 

Ah that you for the context. I was conflating marriage and betrothal. Then yes it is quite odd she wasn’t betrothed. Or was she and we just aren’t aware?

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36 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

What does southron ambitions even mean ? That Rickard hard ambitions in the south or that he had ambitions of the south ? In his south or southof his land. Is it large scale or small scale ? The three sisters are south. Moat Cailin is south (of Winterfell). 

I think, per my post above that he had in mind or had been offered the job of High King as the most powerful of the First Men

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