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Black Crow

Heresy 222 vindication

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In considering marriages between great houses its worth bearing in mind that in the real world they had to be approved by the king, in order to give him the ability to hinder the forming of power blocs, hence the rarity of such alliances precisely because they were seen as alliances 

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1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

In considering marriages between great houses its worth bearing in mind that in the real world they had to be approved by the king, in order to give him the ability to hinder the forming of power blocs, hence the rarity of such alliances precisely because they were seen as alliances 

Something to keep in mind, though, is that with Aerys declining mental facilities, even though paranoia was increasing, he may not have connected all dots.  Tywin, who some of suspected of being tangently involved in this as well (Jaime was to marry Lysa Tully), may have said something to appease Aerys' worries or approved them himself.

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14 hours ago, St Daga said:

I wasn't questioning the age gap between children of Quellon's first marriage and second (though I was so damn disorganized and rambling that probably wasn't clear), only the time frame for the kids of the second marriage. Balon is the eldest of the five boys from Quellon's second marriage. If Balon and Euron are next to each other in line of birth for Quellon and from the same marriage, which it seems they are, I doubt there is a several years or more between their birth dates.

My head canon actually had Urri as younger than Aeron, but since Aeron lists their order with him last, and the wiki states the same thing, I am going with this order for their births.

 

 
From these quotes, I think it confirms that Euron is definitely older than Victarion. So, I think the order that Aeron lists in his thoughts is probably correct. Balon, Euron, Victarion, Urrigon, then Aeron from Quellon's second marriage.
 

I agree with what you've found, but I'm thinking Balon was of an age with Ned - maybe even younger. He was the eldest of his father's second wife, which encourages us to think of him as being really old, but if you consider Theon's age as being close to Robb's, then Balon must be close in age to Ned.

11 hours ago, St Daga said:

Gosh, I totally spaced that out. Elmar Frey. Thanks! 

 

I think Balon was holding out hope in Theon, even after he felt Theon had grown up soft at Winterfell. He was perhaps using Asha, too, playing them against each other. It's doubtful, even with his support, she could lead the Iron Born. Unless perhaps she married one of her uncles, and that just leaves Euron and Victarion, because I doubt Aeron can marry as a priest of the Drowned God.

Even if she was his planned heir, she is 23 when we meet her, definitely she should be married, or at least there should be a plan in place for her to marry. If she had already been married to a man of her and Balon's choice, it would have saved her a marriage by proxy seal to Erik Ironmaker. Her lack of allies and a husband put her in a weak position, although I am sure that Balon didn't expect to be murdered, so he might have had more of a plan in place for after the north was secured. Then he would have a much stronger negotiating power as the King of the Isles and North. It's interesting because this weakens her ability to get allies and her marriage seems to be as legal to Erik Ironmaker as Sansa's is to Tyrion. It will be interesting to see how these situations play out. 

I thought Damphair suggested that Victarion should marry Asha?

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But Theon had sixteen/seventeen years old brothers while Robb was Ned's eldest, so I would say Balon is older then Ned, maybe in his forties if he started to have kids in young age. 

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3 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

But Theon had sixteen/seventeen years old brothers while Robb was Ned's eldest, so I would say Balon is older then Ned, maybe in his forties if he started to have kids in young age. 

Balon only had two children: Theon and Asha.

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21 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Balon only had two children: Theon and Asha

Only two that survived.  older than Theon and Asha were Rodrik and Maron. they died during the rebellion

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Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I agree with what you've found, but I'm thinking Balon was of an age with Ned - maybe even younger. He was the eldest of his father's second wife, which encourages us to think of him as being really old, but if you consider Theon's age as being close to Robb's, then Balon must be close in age to Ned.

However, Theon is Balon's youngest child, since he already had Rodrik, Maron and Asha (who is three years older than Theon), while Robb, who is 5 years younger than Theon, is Ned's eldest. Even if Rodrik and Maron and Asha are all only 1 year apart in age, that's 2+3+5=10 potential years between Balon's eldest and Ned's eldest. That doesn't add up for me if Balon and Ned are the same age. Balon has to be older!

 

31 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Balon only had two children: Theon and Asha.

Balon had 4 children by his marriage to Alannys Harlaw. Rodrik and Maron were old enough to fight and die in the Greyjoy rebellion, as well as Asha and Theon. We don't know about children from salt wives. It is noted that he took his first salt wives at 15 although we don't hear of any children from these arrangements that he claimed.

 

49 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I thought Damphair suggested that Victarion should marry Asha?

Yes, he did. I am just questioning why Balon didn't think of this. Or perhaps he did, but didn't like the idea! :dunno:

 

Oops! Ninja'd by Lady Rhodes! Posting at the same time, I think! Sorry for the repeat comments.

Edited by St Daga
some ninja action

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35 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Balon only had two children: Theon and Asha.

Nope he had two elder sons who died at Greyjoy rebellion, one was a friend of the Knight of Harlaw

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4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

In considering marriages between great houses its worth bearing in mind that in the real world they had to be approved by the king, in order to give him the ability to hinder the forming of power blocs, hence the rarity of such alliances precisely because they were seen as alliances

The great houses, in many cases, go back thousands of years before there was any king to whom they reported.  Also, of course, the above policy is never said to exist in the books.

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I think the larger question is: "What motive could the son and heir of Great House A possibly have not to marry the daughter of Great House B, if their families had arranged such a marriage?"

I don't see any such motive.  It benefits both their houses, and that's exactly why it would be arranged in the first place, and why we see it happening in various cases.

A good pre-Rebellion example of such a betrothal would be the very one that started the discussion... which is Robert Baratheon and Lyanna Stark.

 

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On the other hand, if we want to find a type of marriage that really never existed, there are always arranged gay marriages. 

Quote

 

OLENNA TYRELL: Your boy Renly and my grandson Loras keep making eyes at each other.  It just seems obvious.

STEFFON BARATHEON:  I quite agree.  How does a spring wedding work for you?

 

 

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2 minutes ago, JNR said:

A good pre-Rebellion example of such a betrothal would be the very one that started the discussion... which is Robert Baratheon and Lyanna Stark.

Another situation I just thought of was Argillac Durrandon offering his daughter Argella, and only heir, to Aegon Targaryen, Lord of Dragonstone. This would have been two strong houses uniting areas from different kingdoms. So, I can see that in the past marriages might have been made between kingdoms to help unite against a common enemy from another kingdom.

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Lyanna's abduction was intended to prevent her from marrying Robert. I theorize that this was the Lannister's motive. It's all about finding a way to make Cersei "queen". The added benefit was spurring the Starks and the north into rebelling. 

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Whilst the R+L=J theory might be consistent with this. I don't think that Rhaegar [like Mel] had any notion of the Others. I still think that he was obsessed with hatching dragons simply because he knew the dynasty wouldn't survive without them

 

22 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Obviously, the issue is that we don't know exactly what Rhaegar read.  But we are told in Storm of Swords:

So, whatever it was, he knew that he must be geared and prepared for battle.  This implies that there will be some sort of foe. 

Also, Melisandre frequently refers to "The Great Other".  She may not know exactly what they are going to be battling, but knows it is something.

Assuming that Aemon and Rhaegar held similar beliefs, we can be pretty sure that Rhaegar may have been greatly influenced by the possibility of a Long Night:

Quote

"Swords alone cannon hold this darkness back.  Only the light of the Lord can do that.  Make no mistake, good sers and valiant brothers, the war we've come to fight is no petty squabble over lands and honors.  Ours is a war for life itself, and should we fail the world dies with us"...

But all of them seemed surprised to hear Maester Aemon murmer, "It is the war for the dawn you speak of, my lady.  But where is the prince that was promised?"

Quote

"It was a prince that was promised, not a princess.  Rhaegar, I thought .. the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died.  He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet."

Quote

"He has a song," the man replied.  "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire."

Now if you go back to the approximate time of Aemon's conception, it just about coincides with the time that the announcements for the Harrenhal tourney are sent out.

Quote

"... but in 281 AC this long partnership, which had proved so fruitful to the realm, came to a bitter end.

Shortly thereafter, Lord Walter When announced his plans for a great tourney to be held at his seat at Harrenhal, to celebrate his maiden daughter's nameday.

And the suspicion is that Rhaegar was the true shadow benefactor behind the Harrenhal Tourney:

Quote

If this tale be believed, t'was Prince Rhaegar who urged Lord Walter to hold the tourney, using his lordship's brother Ser Oswell as a go-between.

It is posited in the World of Ice and Fire that Rhaegar was using the Harrenhal tourney as a pretext to gather the Great Lords together to discuss removing his father, but I'm not sure that this was the actual motivation behind the Harrenhal tourney.

For instance we know that the Harrenhal tourney included a Night's Watch recruiter who was given a platform to try and convince the knights to join up with the Night's Watch.  Which would go hand in hand with the idea that the prince that was promised was foretold to lead the fight again the coming Long Night.  Rhaegar may be trying to help bolster the ranks of the Night's Watch to aid in the battle that the prince that was promised is supposed to fight.  I also wonder if there had been an additional motivation for Rhaegar to try and gather the lords and ladies who would have been descended from the bloodlines of the First Men Kings.

After all, the principle lords present at the Harrenhal tourney weren't the older lords of the major houses, but the younger unattached lords:

Quote

The storm lord was on hand, and the rose lord as well...

and of course the Stark brothers and their sister.  But not apparently Lord Rickard.

I think it's important to remember the imagery contained in the Harrenhal tourney.  As Wolfmaid has pointed out in the past, the Harrenhal tourney uses imagery and symbolism taken from May Day and Beltane rituals.  The tourney even takes place in the setting of a false spring.  These are all fertility rituals. 

Quote

There's nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say?  Words or kisses, maybe more, but where's the harm in that?

So in the midst of this revelry, where young lords and ladies are cavorting, we have one person who seems to catch many eyes at the tourney.  Elia's lady in waiting, and Arthur Dayne's sister, Ashara Dayne.  And Ashara Dayne seems to be right in the midst of some of Rhaegar's inner circle:

Quote

The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins,

And then we're told that Ashara Dayne was "dishonored" by someone at the tourney:

Quote

But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well....

If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beaty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

Quote

and lastly with the quiet wolf... but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

What I think may be a possibility, is that the Harrenhal tourney may have had a very specific purpose.  Perhaps Rheagar was using Ashara Dayne to engage in a bit of genetic engineering, either to create a bloodline necessary to help fulfill the prince that was promised prophecy, or to hatch dragons, or to bring about the third head of the dragon. 

Edited by Frey family reunion

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Is there a connection between Houses Ryder/Ryswell/Bracken and the Dothraki? 

The Dothraki supposed to tame horses for the first time and both Ryswells and Brackens have stallions as their sigil. Lord Ryswell has a gold stallion aka Bracken sigil, and Lord Dustin was gifted a red stallion by Barbrey Ryswell. Before House Ryswell, Rills were ruled by House Ryder, another horse connection. Bracken is also name of a great fern and this plant could be the Ghost Grass, maybe First Men had proto-Dothraki who brought horses to the new continent? 

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4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I agree with what you've found, but I'm thinking Balon was of an age with Ned - maybe even younger. He was the eldest of his father's second wife, which encourages us to think of him as being really old, but if you consider Theon's age as being close to Robb's, then Balon must be close in age to Ned.

I thought Damphair suggested that Victarion should marry Asha?

Ned is 35 at the start of Game of Thrones. 

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2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

What I think may be a possibility, is that the Harrenhal tourney may have had a very specific purpose.  Perhaps Rheagar was using Ashara Dayne to engage in a bit of genetic engineering, either to create a bloodline necessary to help fulfill the prince that was promised prophecy, or to hatch dragons, or to bring about the third head of the dragon. 

Ser Jorah's frown deepened until his eyebrows came together. "Prince Rhaegar played such a harp," he conceded. "You saw him?"

She nodded. "There was a woman in a bed with a babe at her breast. My brother said the babe was the prince that was promised and told her to name him Aegon."

"Prince Aegon was Rhaegar's heir by Elia of Dorne," Ser Jorah said. "But if he was this prince that was promised, the promise was broken along with his skull when the Lannisters dashed his head against a wall."

It is not related to Harrenhal, because

On Braavos, it had seemed possible that Aemon might recover. Xhondo's talk of dragons had almost seemed to restore the old man to himself. That night he ate every bite Sam put before him. "No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it." Just talking of her seemed to make him stronger. "I must go to her. I must. Would that I was even ten years younger."

 

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3 hours ago, JNR said:

A good pre-Rebellion example of such a betrothal would be the very one that started the discussion... which is Robert Baratheon and Lyanna Stark.

We I say "pre-Rebellion", I don't mean before Ned and Robert started fighting, indeed most of the marriages I referenced were before that. 

The theory is these marriages were made as part of alliances leading up to the rebellion.   By pre-rebellion, I mean a generation or more before, e.g. Rickard Stark, Steffon Baratheon, Tywin Lannister, Hoster Tully and Jon Arryn's first marriages - none involved multiple Great Houses.   In most cases, we know their parents marriages, again, none with multiple Great Houses. 

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I think the whole thing started with the Princess of Dorne visiting Tywin to arrange the marriage of Jamie and Elia.  Elia could have inherited Dorne even as a female and the two of them could have ruled both Kingdoms together along with their descendants.  We don't know why Tywin refused this but I think he played both sides early. 

Dorne marries Elia to Rheagar in part to get back at Tywin knowing he wanted Cersei to marry Rheagar, and possibly even convinced Aerys to give Jamie the White Cloak.

Somehow Walys gets the idea to arrange the marriages and alliances, either knowing what is coming, or in a plan to remove the Targaryens.   I'd love to know more about Walys and Rickard. 

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