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Heresy 222 vindication

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7 hours ago, JNR said:

Hmmm... while I'm certainly no fan of R+L=J, I don't think we know any of that.

Here's what I know, concerning the show vs. the books:

• The show creators constantly changed things -- all kinds of things -- to suit their own interests

• The things they changed absolutely did include character deaths (numerous examples)

• In the show, R+L=J did turn out to be true and did matter quite a bit (without it, Dany probably would have survived)

• GRRM confirmed D&D knew Jon's mother, but has never once said a peep about D&D knowing his parents

• GRRM also told them something about Hodor, something about Shireen, and something that turns up at "the very end" of the show

That's really it.  It adds up to almost nothing about future books IMO per se, because Book World is simply not Show World.

All the same, Heresy has always stood for keeping an open mind and not jumping to premature conclusions -- not feeling obligated to believe whatever other book fans believe. 

It still should stand for all that.  And in the end, that is going to prove the better approach, because as Parris McBride so accurately observed:

 

Very nicely put - although while R+L=J "mattered" it certainly wasn't the return of the king scenario so stridently predicted :commie: 

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If you watch the after the episode portions (which while certainly should not be required viewing I find interesting) they specifically say it was Shireen’s burning, not just “something happens to Shireen” 

The show has changed a lot and o am not necessarily happy about t either. However, there are a few things that D&D as well as GRRM have pretty much confirmed as true that seem to be brushed under the rug because they haven’t fit our preconceived theories. Just wanting to point that out. 

Didnt we have a discussion a few heresy’s back regarding fraying if magical wards that could be in the wall? I also speculated elsewhere that something had to have occurred for the Others to return at this point. I am wondering if bloodraven venturing past the wall may have done something or Alysanne’s attempt to cross.

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Not only does Shireen have grayscale, she's like 1/32 Targaryen. I'm not sure if that qualifies her for casino money, but it bears watching in light of certain prophecies.

The Wall is a funny thing. Heretics may disagree, but GRRM himself has told us that "more than ice" went into its raising, and certainly the Wildlings seem to agree. Blood, Ygritte says. But in a time of rising magic, wouldn't the magical wall be keeping Westeros even safer? Something doesn't add up, there.

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@Demetri That was quite an entrance! Welcome, welcome! 

Melisandre described the Wall as one of the great hinges of the world. In my mind, a hinge holds a door, and a door has two sides with each side facing an opening. There is another door that seems to hold the keys to opening the mysteries of the Wall: The door to the House of Black and White.

The House of Black and White is a temple that sits upon a rocky knoll made of dark grey stone. It has no windows and has a black tile roof. Its wooden doors are twelve feet high and carved. The left door is white weirwood, the right ebony black. In the center of both doors is a carved moon face - ebony on the weirwood side, weirwood on the ebony side. The knoll upon which it stands holds many passageways cut from the rock. There are three lower levels. Priests and acolytes sleep on the first level, servants sleep on the second, and the third level holds the holy sanctum and the many faces collected by the House. The faces hung on the walls are used in disguises. Upstairs on the main floor lies a pool ten feet across. Thirty statues of the world’s gods line the interior walls surrounding the pool. While there are no regular services, songs, or worship held within the temple, people can visit the gods, the pool, and even ask for a priest. It is this House where Arya meets the kindly man, and is initiated into the guild of the Faceless Men.

Greywater Watch, also known as Greywater, is the seat of House Reed. It is roughly located in an eastern headwater of the Green Fork in the swamps of the Neck, southwest of Moat Cailin. It is a castle built upon a crannog, which is a man-made floating island, and it does not stay in the same place, making it impossible for ravens or enemies to find. It’s a mysterious place where many have died trying to find it. This seems to echo the pool in the House of Black and White. You drink from that pool and you die. Any attempts to search for Greywater have ended with invaders sinking into the bogs. The Neck itself is centrally located in Westeros, with the North and its colder climes on one end, and the South with it’s warmer temperatures on the other. It’s a literal geographic manifestation of the artistic design of the doors of the House of Black and White. Greywater’s physical description of floating on a crannog may be an inversion to the rocky knoll of HoBaW, but it is equally mysterious and deathly.

Because of its central location and the different climates north and south of it, I believe the Neck was also once a great hinge that split Westeros in two, but it was breached and destroyed. The current Wall is its replacement.

Imagine you are looking at a coin. There are two sides: ‘heads’ and ‘tails’. The heads side cannot travel to or become the tails side or vice versa. Such is our tale of black and whites. There are two sides to every coin, but they’re still the same coin. 

Dragons are fire made flesh while white walkers are flesh made ice. Two sides of the same magic coin. Dragons can no more pass to the white walker’s side as the head side can travel to the tail side of the coin. To do so is to break the laws of nature.

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7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Very nicely put - although while R+L=J "mattered" it certainly wasn't the return of the king scenario so stridently predicted

Yes, I would certainly agree with that.

You could even say that Jon was... non regis.

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7 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

they specifically say it was Shireen’s burning, not just “something happens to Shireen”

What they say is "this."  

As in: "When George told us about this..."

At the time, that was immediately defined by some, such as the admin of this site, to mean: "Stannis burns Shireen." 

Well, we'll see... but I really doubt it.  Shireen is hundreds of miles away from Stannis at this time in the books, and so is Selyse, and so is Melisandre.

In ADWD he refuses to burn people for R'hllor at that same point in the story.  And in the TWOW sample chapter he specifically tells Justin Massey this:

Quote

 

"It may be that we shall lose this battle," the king said grimly. "In Braavos you may hear that I am dead. It may even be true. You shall find my sellswords nonetheless."

The knight hesitated. "Your Grace, if you are dead —"

" —you will avenge my death, and seat my daughter on the Iron Throne. Or die in the attempt."

 

That guy is not gonna burn his daughter alive, in my strong opinion.

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33 minutes ago, JNR said:

What they say is "this."  

As in: "When George told us about this..."

At the time, that was immediately defined by some, such as the admin of this site, to mean: "Stannis burns Shireen." 

Well, we'll see... but I really doubt it.  Shireen is hundreds of miles away from Stannis at this time in the books, and so is Selyse, and so is Melisandre.

In ADWD he refuses to burn people for R'hllor at that same point in the story.  And in the TWOW sample chapter he specifically tells Justin Massey this:

That guy is not gonna burn his daughter alive, in my strong opinion.

I tend to agree with this. Wasn't Shireen's dream of a dragon eating her? 

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I always believed Shireen dreaming about dragons coming to eat her foreshadowed Melisandre burning Shireen to wake dragons from stone. 

Mel burning Shireen without her parents knowledge or permission doesn't have the same impact, and also sets Selyse and Stannis against Melisandre.  I believe it will be Selyse who hands her daughter over to be burnt.

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Posted (edited)

Speaking of coins with the two sides of heads and tails...it has just dawned on me that there may be an alternate meaning to "three heads of the dragon". Aren't there gold dragon coins?

The three heads might be translated as being a total of three times that dragons won the coin toss. GRRM has said that there once were dragons all over Westeros in the ancient past. Perhaps this was prior to the Long Night and before the white walkers came? The Long Night was the first time that tails came up and white walkers won the toss. Then Aegon and his sisters were the third coin toss and the second time dragons came up as "heads". The current return of white walkers is the fourth coin toss, and the second time tails won. Daenerys and her dragons are the fifth coin toss, making it the third time that "heads" won.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land.

 

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18 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I started searching asoiaf deities while writing about Gemstone Emperors of Dawn, I identified Lion of Night, Maiden Made of Light and God on Earth with gemstones too and realized MMoL is tied to various deities like Lady of Spears, Pale Moon Maiden, Weeping Lady of Lys etc. And her ties with the Faith was obvious too, with these clues I began to build the Trinity of Asoiaf. 

Lion of Night - he is a lion headed deity worshipped by the wealthy, he is tied to House Craster and the Rock, he is the father  of GoD and causes the Long Night after MMoL turns her back to planetos. He is Father and Stranger of the Faith, first head of the Trios, the destructive force. 

Maiden Made of Light - She is referred as Maiden, but she is also the mother of GoD, unlike the Crone who is said to light the path of humans, MMoL hides her light from the planetos causing a dark, cold, age. She is the second head of Trios, most says they don't know what's the second head for, I think this is due to MMoL being passive, Loan started the Other's attack and GoD ended it, but MMoL isn't part of the neither side. 

God on Earth - he is the Warrior and the Smith, he is the who made Lightbringer and the one who used it against the Others. He is the third head of Trios and symbolizes rebirth, a new era for the humanity. 

Although the Faith seems like the most anti magic religion they are actually a corrupted version of this Trinity, and they are the only known religion with a holy book in the series, although we are told the book contains prayers and hymns, in our world holy books also contains laws and historical content about important eras. Then I started to notice other similarities between deities and important figures of asoiaf. 

Very interesting premise. I have not read past the OP, so if some of this is already mentioned, I am sorry for the repeat.

I think that there are several trinity's at work in this story. Trios the three headed god is just one of them, and might actually represent all of them in some ways. One of the mentions we get of Trios in the story is from Arya in Braavos, who notes that Trios has a tower with three turrets as a place of worship. We are told what two heads do, devour and rebirth, but not what the middle tower does, but it must be transformative. I think this is represented several times in Westeros. We have the Dyre Den, which is the castle of the Brune's, which is a small castle with three crooked towers, and we also have Hollard Castle, which has a keep with triple towers with golden crowns. But I think the most interesting nod that I see is at Moat Cailin. We are told there were once as many as twenty towers, but there are only three remaining. The Gatehouse tower, the Drunkard's tower and the Children's tower. Now, a gate house could be for entry or exit, which could mirror either of the two heads of Trios that we know. These three towers are formidable and block attack from several directions, but also can attack the other towers in the complex. They can either defend or destroy each other!  Last night my mind was really wandering with these towers, but most of it's crazy talk, and I can't make it sound like much more than gibberish. I also think the idea that we have only three manned castles on the wall at the start of our story might be a trinity of sorts that fit's Trios. Now, if the Nightfort was one of these three castles, with it's mouth that both devours and expel, that would be a more perfect fit. I need to think on this a bit more.

But trinity's play an important role in the story, and not just in castles. I think there are two very important trinities in play. The first is the trinity I see in the father, son and holy ghost, or in our story, Ned, Jon, and Ghost! Now, this could work for whomever Jon's father works out to be, although I see the connection with Jon and Ned as father and son because they are compared so very often, in looks and behavior. Ned was known as the Quiet Wolf and Jon is given a quiet wolf by the old gods. Ghost is a connection between them. I remember reading an article about how as a child GRRM was so confused by the concept of the trinity in is early Catholic upbringing, how it's three but really only one, but it's actually three. He of course had slyly told us he used this for inspiration for the seven, which I think he did, but I think he has trinities buried in many places in the text. We actually have two trinities buried within the Faith, but I will come back to that later.

Another trinity I see, that might be connected to Trios, is the idea of Ned as Hades and controller of the underworld, Robert as Zeus, controller of the lands and with lightening/storm powers, and the third I think is Balon Greyjoy, who fit's the concept of Posiedon, controller of the seas and the monsters of the deep. The Greyjoy's are linked to the Drowned God and the Baratheon's are linked to the Storm God. The Stark's are not really associated to just one got, but I think that god could be death, which nods both to the Other's and to the Faceless Men at the House of Black and White. There is a lot of Stark symbolism in the "changing of faces". not just in Arya's story, but in reference to Ned, Jon and Robb. Just as with Trios, we are missing what the role of the middle head does, so far in our story, we have not been connected to the god I think the Stark's worshiped/followed/feared before the Old Gods. Or, honestly, the Old God's could encompass storm, sea and death, not just rocks and streams and forest. In Greek/Roman mythos, we see these three major male gods sometimes joining up to fight a greater threat (their father) or joining up to fight each other at different times, and we see Robert/Ned joining to fight Balon. 

I don't want to derail the premise you are connecting with the gods of Essos too much, but I do think we are seeing hints of Essos in Westeros deities and vice versa. I am just not sure if it's a parallel or an inversion, since I see the Shade of the Evening tree as in inversion of the weirwood.

Your idea of the God on Earth being connected both the the warrior and the smith fit's the imagery around Robert Baratheon to a tee. I am not certain on the Maiden Made of Light (in my head, her role would fit with the drowned god, but I am struggling to make those connections), but I could certainly see the Lion of Night, the destructive force, being tied both to the cold and darkness of the long night and the fire as a destructive force, and I will say that I see some fire and heat in the Stark's arc, not just the winter/cold/ice imagery. I think the Stark's can embody both fire and ice. Ned walks Robert through the cold, dark, dead crypts but guides the way with a lantern of fire! 

 

19 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Semosh and Selloso - they are brother deities of Essos, there isn't much information about them but I think they are connected to House Tarly's founders. 

Aquan the Red Bull - another Essosi deity, Aquan seems to be similar to Bors the Breaker, who drank bull blood and grow horns. Essosi sacrifice bulls to his idols. 

As to this, I think these are nice connections and I am now wondering if we could connect the known deities in Essos to what we know of the children of Garth Greenhand? I don't know the Essos deities well, but Maris the Maid is connected to her beauty and the Hightower, a place of light, and that sounds a bit like the Maiden Made of Light to me, and perhaps Bakkalon the Pale Child who is noted to be warlike and holding a sword is a nod to Brandon of the Bloody Blade? This is a completely new idea for me, so the connections I see are still like a kindergarten version.

 

19 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Although the Faith seems like the most anti magic religion they are actually a corrupted version of this Trinity, and they are the only known religion with a holy book in the series, although we are told the book contains prayers and hymns, in our world holy books also contains laws and historical content about important eras. Then I started to notice other similarities between deities and important figures of asoiaf. 

GRRM's makes a lot of connections to the number three and seven. You point out that there are some trinities in the story, and also that the Faith of the Seven is perhaps a form of a trinity in itself (of course, it has more heads) but after reading your initial post last night, I was thinking how three can become part of seven or against seven when I was thinking of the toj showdown. We are given the idea of the three white cloaks, Dayne, Hightower and Whent. These men are a trinity of a sort, at this time, on their own. But they are also a part of a greater grouping. Three of seven total white cloaks. So, now they are three but they could be seven, but while they are three at the toj, they actually face off against seven. Is the seven that includes Ned and his wraiths a sort of connection to a septology just like the Faith of the Seven or the seven Kingsguard? And then which three of Ned's seven are uber important? Ned and Howland live, so that must make two of the three, but which is the other one that is important? Lord Dustin because of all the hoopla surrounding him and his red stallion? Is it Ethan Glover, who was part of Brandon Stark's group that rode to the Red Keep? Martyn Cassell get's a couple mentions in our story? Or am I looking for three when there really is only two of Ned's seven that is important? Personally, I would think there is much more to Lord Dustin's story than we have been told.

So, within the Faith of the Seven, one obvious trinity stands out and that is Maiden, Mother and Crone, and in some religions, these three are part of one deity with different aspects. We also have the Smith, Father, and the Warrior, which also is a trinity within the seven. All of these could be considered one aspect of man, just like we see three aspects of woman. And then we have the Stranger, which could embody many things, but seems solo within the Faith. But we basically have the role of women represented, the role of men represented and the role of death represented. Another trinity within seven, not unlike the three kingguard (of seven) at the toj.

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, JNR said:

What they say is "this."  

As in: "When George told us about this..."

At the time, that was immediately defined by some, such as the admin of this site, to mean: "Stannis burns Shireen." 

Well, we'll see... but I really doubt it.  Shireen is hundreds of miles away from Stannis at this time in the books, and so is Selyse, and so is Melisandre.

In ADWD he refuses to burn people for R'hllor at that same point in the story.  And in the TWOW sample chapter he specifically tells Justin Massey this:

That guy is not gonna burn his daughter alive, in my strong opinion.

Respect your opinion. But firmly disagree. There is a ton of foreshadowing, from Shireen dreaming of being ate by a dragon, to Melisandre wanting to burn Edric (that Stannis was leaning towards consenting to). If things get desperate enough, I think this could happen. It may not be Stannis but Selyse that does it though, that I will grant you. 

On an allegorical note, after finishing this past season, my mind keeps drifting to George Orwell’s book Animal Farm, which was an allegorical fable regarding the Russian Revolution.  I find myself thinking of these animals creating a society out of an earnest desire to right the wrongs and how it was corrupted by the very animals who sought to make the farm a better place. I am reflecting on GRRM notions on power and wondering if we are to look at the contenders arc’s through this lens: that even the most noble actor, the most just cause can be corrupted. This could apply to Stannis and Selyse regarding Shireen, Daenerys and perhaps Rhaegar? 

 

Edited by Lady Rhodes
Adding info

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, St Daga said:

triple towers with golden crowns.

Up thread I had just made a connection between the three heads of the dragon and coin tosses. Keeping within that analogy, I think "golden crowns" are also references to gold dragon coins. Dany and her dragons are the third time "heads" won the coin toss.

3 hours ago, St Daga said:

We are told what two heads do, devour and rebirth, but not what the middle tower does, but it must be transformative.

Keeping with the coin analogy - the middle tower is the edge of the coin. It's neither heads nor tails.

3 hours ago, St Daga said:

Another trinity I see, that might be connected to Trios, is the idea of Ned as Hades and controller of the underworld, Robert as Zeus, controller of the lands and with lightening/storm powers, and the third I think is Balon Greyjoy, who fit's the concept of Posiedon, controller of the seas and the monsters of the deep. The Greyjoy's are linked to the Drowned God and the Baratheon's are linked to the Storm God.

The storm that Storms End was built to withstand was actually against two gods: the Sea God (water) and the Goddess of the Wind (wind), who I believe are also the Drowned God (water) and the Storm God (wind). A Storm Lord would not embody any of these gods. He would actually be the shield against these two gods, and thus he would be more like the middle tower that doesn't seem to do anything, because - back to the coin analogy - he's the edge of the coin and neither heads nor tails. 

3 hours ago, St Daga said:

The Stark's are not really associated to just one got, but I think that god could be death, which nods both to the Other's and to the Faceless Men at the House of Black and White. There is a lot of Stark symbolism in the "changing of faces". not just in Arya's story, but in reference to Ned, Jon and Robb. Just as with Trios, we are missing what the role of the middle head does,

I also associate the Starks with the middle tower. They are the edge of the coin - neither heads nor tails. They are the shield that defends the realm from when the coin lands on "tails". 

I actually see the Daynes as a middle tower too. They are the shield that protects the realm from when the coin lands on "heads". Unfortunately, they forgot their purpose and allied themselves with dragon heads.

3 hours ago, St Daga said:

I was thinking how three can become part of seven or against seven when I was thinking of the toj showdown. We are given the idea of the three white cloaks, Dayne, Hightower and Whent. These men are a trinity of a sort, at this time, on their own. But they are also a part of a greater grouping. Three of seven total white cloaks. So, now they are three but they could be seven, but while they are three at the toj, they actually face off against seven. Is the seven that includes Ned and his wraiths a sort of connection to a septology just like the Faith of the Seven or the seven Kingsguard?

The three Kingsguard versus Ned's seven men could be viewed as a highly symbolic way of Ned's successful defeat of "dragon/heads". The Starks are supposed to protect the realm from "tails", but because he was also able to defeat the Targaryen's "heads", GRRM is showing this victory symbolically- Ned neutralized the "three" which symbolically are "heads" by using "seven" men. I'm not sure I'm explaining this properly, because it's an abstract concept, but it's how I see it.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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11 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Up thread I had just made a connection between the three heads of the dragon and coin tosses. Keeping within that analogy, I think "golden crowns" are also references to gold dragon coins. Dany and her dragons are the third time "heads" won the coin toss.

Keeping with the coin analogy - the middle tower is the edge of the coin. It's neither heads nor tails.

The storm that Storms End was built to withstand was actually against two gods: the Sea God (water) and the Goddess of the Wind (wind), who I believe are also the Drowned God (water) and the Storm God (wind). A Storm Lord would not embody any of these gods. He would actually be the shield against these two gods, and thus he would be more like the middle tower that doesn't seem to do anything, because - back to the coin analogy - he's the edge of the coin and neither heads nor tails. 

I also associate the Starks with the middle tower. They are the edge of the coin - neither heads nor tails. They are the shield that defends the realm from when the coin lands on "tails". 

I actually see the Daynes as a middle tower too. They are the shield that protects the realm from when the coin lands on "heads". Unfortunately, they forgot their purpose and allied themselves with dragon heads.

The three Kingsguard versus Ned's seven men could be viewed as a highly symbolic way of Ned's successful combat defeating a toss of "heads". The Starks are supposed to protect the realm from "tails", but because he was also able to defeat the Targaryen "heads", GRRM is showing this victory symbolically Ned neutralizing the "three" with the "seven". I'm not sure I'm explaining this properly, because it's an abstract concept, but it's how I see it.

Very interesting!

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3 hours ago, Direwolf Blitzer said:

he Wall is a funny thing. Heretics may disagree, but GRRM himself has told us that "more than ice" went into its raising, and certainly the Wildlings seem to agree. Blood, Ygritte says. But in a time of rising magic, wouldn't the magical wall be keeping Westeros even safer? Something doesn't add up, there.

So I have two points to add to this. The Others are said to be able to make things out of ice, like we would stone or steel. I picture that the Wall wasn't raised by Man, but by the Others in a peace treaty with Man. (CotF likely being either intermediaries or assisting the Others). As the strength of magic increases, I suspect that it isn't Westeros that is becoming safer, but the Lands of Always Winter. 

My next point is that if we look at the Wildling submission ceremony, Mel thinks she has burned the Horn of Winter. While we suspect otherwise (we are told this after all), I still suspect that the horn was magical. I suspect that it was an ancient Dragonbinder. The runes seem to shimmer as the horn is burned, and I doubt that Mel is making that effect. Which leads me to my theory that a dragon is entombed in the ice of the Wall. 

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Melisandre described the Wall as one of the great hinges of the world. In my mind, a hinge holds a door, and a door has two sides with each side facing an opening. There is another door that seems to hold the keys to opening the mysteries of the Wall: The door to the House of Black and White.

We both agree that magic is a source of energy that is stored beneath the surface of the ground right? I've always interpreted that line to indicate that magic was closer to the surface, and therefore more usable than in other places. Said differently, I think that the hinge part is that the door (read the Wall) is closed and is blocking off most of the magic that wells up from underneath. When that door opens (Wall falls), I expect to see more supernatural events happening. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Respect your opinion. But firmly disagree. There is a ton of foreshadowing, from Shireen dreaming of being ate by a dragon, to Melisandre wanting to burn Edric (that Stannis was leaning towards consenting to). If things get desperate enough, I think this could happen. It may not be Stannis but Selyse that does it though, that I will grant you. 

I agree, and I believe the tone is set right from the outset in Cressen's prologue: something's rotten in Dragonstone, and Stannis isn't the man he used to be. At this point, I believe Stannis has already taken all sorts of actions that he wouldn't have taken if he were operating with the same code of ethics and moral compass that he had during Robert's Rebellion.

I don't question whether or not Stannis is capable of consenting to sacrificing Shireen, I only question whether or not he'll live long enough to do so, since he may not survive the Battle of Winterfell. However, if he does survive, then I think the stage is set--he'll either take Winterfell at great cost, or even worse, lose and be forced to flee as he did at the Blackwater. Flee, or return to the place that he has ominously chosen as his temporary home at the Wall:

Quote

"The Nightfort is the largest and oldest of the castles on the Wall," the king said. "That is where I intend to make my seat, whilst I fight this war. 

___
 

11 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Very nicely put - although while R+L=J "mattered" it certainly wasn't the return of the king scenario so stridently predicted 

Setting aside what will turn out to be true in Book World, I still can't quite let go of certain nagging suspicions I have about the way the show utilized RLJ. Learning about it was emphasized as a part of Bran's preparations to 'become' the 3EC, he played a role in the string of events that lead to the information being weaponized against Dany, and according to the imagery of Show World, he had visions of Drogon over KL--and hypothetically, should have been able to prevent all that unfolded.

I'm repeating things stated in the prior thread, but I'm really torn between an impulse to read Show Bran as a low key villain--and an equally strong impulse to dismiss that notion, because it's predicated on the idea that anything D&D did could have been "low key." More likely, all of that is just a coincidence, and if D&D had actually wanted Bran to read as a villain, there would have been some over-the-top Kaiser Soze style scene at the end.

Edited by Matthew.

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4 hours ago, Direwolf Blitzer said:

The Wall is a funny thing. Heretics may disagree, but GRRM himself has told us that "more than ice" went into its raising, and certainly the Wildlings seem to agree. Blood, Ygritte says. But in a time of rising magic, wouldn't the magical wall be keeping Westeros even safer? Something doesn't add up, there.

Aux contraire, we miserable heretics have very firmly fastened on this and some of us go so far as to speculate that the Wall was not raised to defend the green realms of men, but to defend the magic otherlands beyond

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Janneyc1 said:

So I have two points to add to this. The Others are said to be able to make things out of ice, like we would stone or steel. I picture that the Wall wasn't raised by Man, but by the Others in a peace treaty with Man. (CotF likely being either intermediaries or assisting the Others). As the strength of magic increases, I suspect that it isn't Westeros that is becoming safer, but the Lands of Always Winter. 

My next point is that if we look at the Wildling submission ceremony, Mel thinks she has burned the Horn of Winter. While we suspect otherwise (we are told this after all), I still suspect that the horn was magical. I suspect that it was an ancient Dragonbinder. The runes seem to shimmer as the horn is burned, and I doubt that Mel is making that effect. Which leads me to my theory that a dragon is entombed in the ice of the Wall. 

We both agree that magic is a source of energy that is stored beneath the surface of the ground right? I've always interpreted that line to indicate that magic was closer to the surface, and therefore more usable than in other places. Said differently, I think that the hinge part is that the door (read the Wall) is closed and is blocking off most of the magic that wells up from underneath. When that door opens (Wall falls), I expect to see more supernatural events happening. 

Utilizing the coin analogy and applying it to the Wall...

If the Wall is a hinge holding a "coin" door, it is currently sitting on it's edge. Westeros isn't currently "experiencing" "heads" nor "tails" just now. Dany's dragons have not arrived to invade Westeros, but neither have the white walkers, yet both exist. The door is closed to both sides, but magic is seeping out, creating an unnatural situation where the two sides of the coin might meet each other.

I realize that this doesn't explain how dragons were able to exist for a time from when Aegon first arrived until the last dragon died in year 153. If Aegon's arrival was year zero, then dragons only lasted 153 years before dying out. Was their extinction due to their containment in the dragon pit or by poison as many have suggested? Or was it perhaps due to a closing of the hinge upon the Wall?

I wonder if it was open to "heads" to allow the dragons to come, but closed again once the threat to the Children and their weirwoods was eliminated? The closing of the door (flipping the coin back on it's side) slowly extinguished the dragons by depriving them of magic.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Speaking of coins with the two sides of heads and tails...it has just dawned on me that there may be an alternate meaning to "three heads of the dragon". Aren't there gold dragon coins?

The three heads might be translated as being a total of three times that dragons won the coin toss. GRRM has said that there once were dragons all over Westeros in the ancient past. Perhaps this was prior to the Long Night and before the white walkers came? The Long Night was the first time that tails came up and white walkers won the toss. Then Aegon and his sisters were the third coin toss and the second time dragons came up as "heads". The current return of white walkers is the fourth coin toss, and the second time tails won. Daenerys and her dragons are the fifth coin toss, making it the third time that "heads" won.

An interesting thought, although as you know I don't believe that the white walkers came from anywhere. I mentioned earlier that in the history of Westeros the Targaryens are just a 300 year blip. Viewing it from that perspective and tossing your coins we can see the Targaryens as a move in the Song of Ice and Fire. 

Valyria gets Doomed - a clear victory by Ice even if it might have been accomplished by proxy

The Dragons riposte with an invasion of Westeros.

Torrhen Stark kneels... why?

Is it to ensure that Aegon the Conqueror doesn't go all the way to the Wall?

We know that the Wall is an effective  barrier against dragons so is it hiding something, ie; the raising of the white walkers and the old Heretic joke that it is not going to be a question of the Dragons saving Westeros from the Others, but of the Others saving Westeros from the Dragons. In that context Danaerys is the last toss of the coin.

 

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21 hours ago, Black Crow said:

God on Earth - he is the Warrior and the Smith, he is the who made Lightbringer and the one who used it against the Others. He is the third head of Trios and symbolizes rebirth, a new era for the humanity. 

...

• And lastly a Messiah and information about end times and hell/heaven

In relation to these two premises, while much emphasis in fan discussion is given to the idea of the R'hllorist messiah combating the Others, I wonder what the perspective of your average R'hllor believer (most of whom don't live in Westeros) is regarding the role of Azor Ahai.

They don't make sojourns to the far north, R'hllorists don't join the NW, and the Others of Westeros didn't even seem to be on Melisandre's radar until ASOS, when they receive the NW's pleas for help. Thoros witnesses a man being reborn with fire magic and literally wielding a flaming sword, and he chooses to operate as a bandit, rather than rush north to save the world.

I realize that the Others of Westeros, and "The Great Other, the God Of Ice and Death" seem to be intuitively linked ideas, but I always thought that when a Red Priest said the Great Other, they meant "The God That isn't R'hllor," not "The God With Dominion Over the Lesser Others of Westeros."

To return to the idea of a messiah, and a "new era for humanity," I think it's that aspect that Benero et al. are most interested in: breaking the world, and then making it anew.
 

 

 

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