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Heresy 222 vindication

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Welcome to the thread ~ 

Jon : I can see him turning into a wight/Other if he isn't burned in  pyre first. I don't think Mel in the books cares about Jon to resurrect him. I can see hin die at the hands of Arya using the needle.  would love him to stay dead though. 

Bran : I can see him becoming a vessel of Bloodraven, and Bloodraven being king hiding behind Bran's identity, or them ruling Westeros through Weirwoods.

Sansa : I can see her marry Harry the Heir but I think Littlefinger s inner circle at the Vale, like Waynwood, Corbray, and Templeton are all Stark kin through Jocelyn Stark's daughters.

Arya : I always thought she will lose her identity but TWOW proved me wrong, still she has a black and white mentality with a screwed sense of judgement, plus she is spoiled. 

Tyrion : hope the bitch dies

Daenerys : Dark Daenerys is coming, she will screw Westeros by slaying her only kin

-

Now a question for heretics, is it possible for First Men to come Westeros through the North instead of South? 

 

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On 5/31/2019 at 1:20 PM, SirArthur said:

Ser Jorah's frown deepened until his eyebrows came together. "Prince Rhaegar played such a harp," he conceded. "You saw him?"

She nodded. "There was a woman in a bed with a babe at her breast. My brother said the babe was the prince that was promised and told her to name him Aegon."

"Prince Aegon was Rhaegar's heir by Elia of Dorne," Ser Jorah said. "But if he was this prince that was promised, the promise was broken along with his skull when the Lannisters dashed his head against a wall."

It is not related to Harrenhal, because

On Braavos, it had seemed possible that Aemon might recover. Xhondo's talk of dragons had almost seemed to restore the old man to himself. That night he ate every bite Sam put before him. "No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it." Just talking of her seemed to make him stronger. "I must go to her. I must. Would that I was even ten years younger."

 

I don’t really follow you here.  Rhaegar went from believing that he was the prince that was promised to his son being the prince that was promised.  So regardless, it seems safe to say that the prince that was promised prophecy probably was a strong motivating factor in Rhaegar’s actions.  Especially if he, like Aemon, believed that the prince that was promised presaged the coming of the Long Night.  

So, assuming at the time of Harrenhal, Rhaegar didn’t even know if he was going to have a son or not, he would have still been of the belief that he (Rhaegar) was the prince that was promised.  

What I’m suggesting is that around the time that the comet was seen over King’s Landing (a comet that Rhaegar equated with the bleeding star) the invitations to the Harrenhal tourney were being sent out.  I’m not suggesting that the Harrenhal tourney was needed to help give birth to the prince that was promised (and in Rhaegar’s mind, it was obviously not), but instead that Rhaegar was looking to genetically engineer bloodlines for magic that he believed to be integral in the prince that was promised prophecy.  

And since the prince that was promised is supposed to wake dragons from stone, then it seems possible that Rhaegar was looking to create a bloodline for just such a purpose.

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42 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I don’t really follow you here.  

So Harrenhal was in late 281 and Aegon born in late 281 or early 282. He was conceived roughly 9 month earlier, in late 280 to late 281. Most likely before Harrenhal. Meaning that Rhaegar already believed at Harrenhal, that his child would be the promised prince, no matter the sex. 

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8 hours ago, JNR said:

All we have is the info from the last few decades before the Rebellion. 

But that is just the tiniest drop in the bucket compared to the total history of the great houses, which goes back many thousands of years.  We can't even begin to guess who the heirs or their wives were.

The political climate before the Targaryens took over was completely different, my point is that marriages between Great Houses were unknown between the conquest and the events leading up to the rebellion, and then became frequent.

Take House Stark, which we have the most information on:

Benjen married Lysa Locke
Rickon married Gilliane Glover
Cregan married Lynara Stark
Brandon married Alys Karstark
Beron married Lorra Royce
William married Melantha Blackwood
Edwyle married Marna Locke
Rickard married Lyarra Stark

Rickard's son Brandon, betrothed to Catyln Tully, who married his other son Ned.  Lyanna was betrothed to Robert Baratheon.  So 3 betrothals and 1 marriage to Great Houses after 8 generations of marriages to vassals.

Or House Lannister:
Damon married Cerissa Brax
Gerold married Rohanne Webber
Tytos married Jeyne Marbrand
Tywin married Joanna Lannister

Tywin's sons Tyrion and Jamie are discussed as possible betrothals to Elia Martell, and Cersei to Quentin, then Cersei marries Robert and Tyrion marries Sansa Stark - after 4 generations of marriages without another Great House.

We don't have a lot on the immediate parents of the other Great Houses, but Hoster married Minisa Whent; Mace married Alerie Hightower and his father Luthor married Olenna Redwyne; and Steffon married Cassana Estermont.

So we simply don't have enough information to say marriages between Great Houses never happened, but of the 16 marriages I found, none are between Great Houses.

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9 hours ago, JNR said:

It happened because after the Battle of the Bells, he had no heir.

It's not that Jon Arryn didn't have any heirs left. Denys was just the latest heir to die. Jon Arryn's heir after his son Robert is Harold Hardyng. If Jon had never married Lysa, Harold would have been the heir after Denys.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, SirArthur said:

So Harrenhal was in late 281 and Aegon born in late 281 or early 282. He was conceived roughly 9 month earlier, in late 280 to late 281. Most likely before Harrenhal. Meaning that Rhaegar already believed at Harrenhal, that his child would be the promised prince, no matter the sex. 

That’s not really my point though.  I’m not arguing that Harrenhal had anything to do with the birth of the prince that was promised. But I don’t think that Rhaegar believed that his job was ended by simply conceiving the lad.  Instead, we have Aemon’s notion that the birth of dragons were proof that Dany was the prince(ess) that was promised.  Aemon also believed that he had to help prepare Dany for her role.  We also have the notion that the prince that was promised is only one of the three heads of the dragon.

So while Rhaegar may have believed that either he or his child fit the role of the prince that was promised, Rhaegar was also of the belief that there were two others needed to be one of the three “heads of the dragon”.  Rhaegar also probably believed that he also had to actually hatch one or more dragons to fulfill the prophecy.

I further think that the prince that was promised isn’t merely a dragon rider.  After all, the Targaryens (or maesters) had been trying to translate the prophecy for over a thousand years.  In that time frame we’ve had dragon riders come and go, but apparently not the prince that was promised.

So if we add one other clue, that the riddle of the prince that was promised was the sphinx, this perhaps alludes to the idea of a Valyrian sphinx.  A dragon with the head of a human.  

Adding it all up, I think Rhaegar’s ultimate goal was not only to give birth to the prince that was promised, or even to hatch a dragon, but in addition was to transfer the consciousness of the prince that was promised into the dragon.  Making a dragon with the consciousness of a Targaryen.  Perhaps the idea that the dragon has three heads means that three consciousnesses are needed to be transferred into the dragon to fully “wake the dragon”.  

So Rhaegar needed additional sources of king’s blood.  Either to be used as sacrifices to help hatch the dragons, or as one of the three necessary consciousnesses needed to be transferred into said dragon.

And that’s what I think Rhaegar may have been doing at Harrenhal.  He was trying to create a royal bastard (or bastards), a child (or children)with a certain mixture of king’s blood to help fulfill the true meaning of the prophecy.  

Edited by Frey family reunion

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This is interesting and really needs more thought and discussion. Can I ask you to repost it in Heresy 223 so that we can do that properly.

:commie:

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Posted (edited)

I'm wondering if it's important that Rhaegar was born at Summerhall on the day of the tragedy?

 

Maybe they didn't fail, maybe they did hatch a dragon (Rhaegar).

To the point though, what if Summerhall was an attempt to put a dragon's consciousness into a person (Rhaegar?)

Also, maybe is was Summerhall that gave Rhaegar the idea that sacrifices were required

Edited by Lord Aegon The Compromiser

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