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Heresy 222 vindication

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Just an errant thought I had regarding Stannis, Shireen, Selyse, Melisandre and Jon. If Stannis falls at the battle for Winterfell, I could see Selyse giving Shireen to Melisandre to burn in hopes of bringing Stannis back but instead Jon returns.

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8 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think Lyanna’s abduction is tied to winter’s return, and that her death coincided with spring.

i also think that latest interview seemed promising. By golly we may get Winds by or before Aug 2020!

Absolutely agree.  This fits with the weather tied to the Starks emotions.   Things were going well and Winter was going forward to Spring, then Lyanna was captured and the Starks were furious and the weather changed. 

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16 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Absolutely agree.  This fits with the weather tied to the Starks emotions.   Things were going well and Winter was going forward to Spring, then Lyanna was captured and the Starks were furious and the weather changed. 

Out of curiosity, if seasons are connected to North of the Wall happenings, what would the elimination of the long seasons mean for the Starks in Heresy-land (which I fully understand isn't a cohesive voting bloc of itself) but it does somewhat fit within the framework of not relying on usual expectations. Whereas everyone would likely say "Oh, less Winter...sweet!" the web of interconnected threads that I kind of view as the heart of Heresy suggests that the supernatural weather would not simply be resolved without ramification.

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Demetri said:

Out of curiosity, if seasons are connected to North of the Wall happenings, what would the elimination of the long seasons mean for the Starks in Heresy-land (which I fully understand isn't a cohesive voting bloc of itself) but it does somewhat fit within the framework of not relying on usual expectations. Whereas everyone would likely say "Oh, less Winter...sweet!" the web of interconnected threads that I kind of view as the heart of Heresy suggests that the supernatural weather would not simply be resolved without ramification.

Well, don't mistake me - I don't think Stark emotions control the weather. I think greenseers are able to do that. I theorize Bloodraven wanted winter to replay in order to "make" Bran appear - and possibly prevent Rhaegar from receiving the prince that was promised.

I don't know if the seasons will normalize or not. IMO they're tied to the Wall and the magical wards interwoven into it. It's a manipulation of these wards that controls the seasons. As soon as Bloodraven found his "Brandon", he replayed summer for nine years so that Bran would have a safe environment in order to develop and grow up.

While the Starks seem well suited to winter, I think they'd be OK if the seasons would normalize and go to four per year. The seasons don't seem to have much effect upon the Wall. It easily withstood the last nine years of summer. It "weeps" on warm days, but it's massive enough to exist through it. The only way that Wall is coming down is if the magic wards that hold it together were to completely unravel and fall apart, then 700 feet of ice crashing down would certainly be felt the six week ride down to Winterfell. I'd expect the destruction of something that massive to be like a supervolcano and reach out as far as 700 miles.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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49 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Absolutely agree.  This fits with the weather tied to the Starks emotions.   Things were going well and Winter was going forward to Spring, then Lyanna was captured and the Starks were furious and the weather changed. 

You've also got the tale of old Ice-Eyes that also seems to show that the weather acts up according to a Stark's emotions. Given the current story, I think that we can gleam two facts:

1. If the Starks are controlling the weather, who is controlling the storm that dominates ADWD? Looking into it, the storm looks to be centered at Winterfell and growing in size. I don't think anyone inside Winterfell could be controlling it. Maybe Bran up in his cave, but we aren't given any indication of that.

2. "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" is a phrase we hear about often, but no one really gives it any mind. I am wondering if the current storm is formed by there being a lack of a Stark in Winterfell, and the magic of it is trying to bury all those who would claim the Northern Throne. 

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1 minute ago, Janneyc1 said:

You've also got the tale of old Ice-Eyes that also seems to show that the weather acts up according to a Stark's emotions. Given the current story, I think that we can gleam two facts:

1. If the Starks are controlling the weather, who is controlling the storm that dominates ADWD? Looking into it, the storm looks to be centered at Winterfell and growing in size. I don't think anyone inside Winterfell could be controlling it. Maybe Bran up in his cave, but we aren't given any indication of that.

2. "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" is a phrase we hear about often, but no one really gives it any mind. I am wondering if the current storm is formed by there being a lack of a Stark in Winterfell, and the magic of it is trying to bury all those who would claim the Northern Throne. 

We have theorized before that the reason why it seems as if a blizzard is emanating out of Winterfell is that it is actually an indication that the Wall is disintegrating and blowing away in the wind like dust. The tunnels underground are acting like exhaust pipes - reaching as far south as the crypts in Winterfell. IMO the "when mountains blow in the wind like leaves" was a prophecy about the Wall.

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1 minute ago, Feather Crystal said:

700 feet of ice crashing down would certainly be felt the six week ride down to Winterfell. I'd expect the destruction of something that massive to be like a supervolcano and reach out as far as 700 miles.

Hmmm. I imagine that would the seismic activity would have an especially interesting effect on any kind of large underground space near Winterfell. But I've never heard of any such place...

Thanks for the clarification. I personally agree with you on parts and disagree with you on others. That's why I really love this series of posts. Disagreement is inherently an aspect of being part of a fan community but some of the general stuff around here would be so...what's the word...blasphemous? That it is almost a different type of discourse as the very existence of the thread shows how widely different theories can be. 

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Just now, Feather Crystal said:

We have theorized before that the reason why it seems as if a blizzard is emanating out of Winterfell is that it is actually an indication that the Wall is disintegrating and blowing away in the wind like dust. The tunnels underground are acting like exhaust pipes - reaching as far south as the crypts in Winterfell. IMO the "when mountains blow in the wind like leaves" was a prophecy about the Wall.

how do we speculate that there are tunnels that run from the Wall, all the way to Winterfell? that distance alone would mean the excavation would take years, if not decades. Surely someone would acknowledge it? also if the Wall is venting above Winterfell, where is the material coming out of the ground. There should be a geyser of snow and magic to make that happen. Lastly, the storm seems to occur once the Boltons move in, and intensifies once Stannis starts to challenge. If it was just venting, why the peculiar timing? 

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Re: "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell." 

Consider the crypts. Remains of many starks, notable efforts to insure good likenesses/quality in statues (this is noted in several places and they start early with King Robert visiting Lyanna's grave at the very beginning. And yet, it is notable in omission that no servants have the duty to maintain the crypts. I think we can infer that it is a special place and a distinctly private place for Starks. (consider Bran's successful hiding and I believe mentions of massive amounts of wax (normally the job of servants.)

I've always kind of considered it as a temple created by the Starks. I personally think that the crypts are more important than Winterfell at large but can't really tell you why because GRRM writes like that (few AHA moments, but if you reflect after careful readings you'll realize you knew things you didn't know you knew). I'd be interested in exploring the concept of the crypts as being a Stark Temple. Temple is a slightly loaded word, but I do believe it observes a relationship with Winter, the land and the Starks. 

Perhaps the true purpose of the crypts is to keep true to the spirit of "must always be a Stark in Winterfell" without actually having something as mundane as a physical proximity requirement. As long as the crypt is generally kept up (not pristine candles but clean statues, continuing to place dead Starks there) fulfills the Stark in Winterfell requirement. Of course, even with that as a safety net, it is important to remember certain things even if the memory is just a tiny part of the greater whole. Within this particular post, let's assume that "must always be a Stark in Winterfell" could be a general reminder to the Starks that they were part of a pact that connected them to the North in a way beyond pure living arrangements. The actual "stark in winterfell" then, is the crypts itself or perhaps the most recent few deaths (oooh, that last bit is kind of interesting...)

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1 minute ago, Demetri said:

Hmmm. I imagine that would the seismic activity would have an especially interesting effect on any kind of large underground space near Winterfell. But I've never heard of any such place...

Thanks for the clarification. I personally agree with you on parts and disagree with you on others. That's why I really love this series of posts. Disagreement is inherently an aspect of being part of a fan community but some of the general stuff around here would be so...what's the word...blasphemous? That it is almost a different type of discourse as the very existence of the thread shows how widely different theories can be. 

You're preaching to the choir! Whenever I get a wild hair and post something in the General or Reread areas, the jackals gnaw my bones until I can't stand it any longer and I crawl away.

I can completely identify with how theories can morph and change using the same supporting text. I've done it to myself many, many, many times over. But I appreciate when someone points out the flaw in any of my theories, because I can go back, reevaluate, and make it better, and then have someone find another flaw, but that only leads to even better discoveries.

There's a pack mentality with that rabid group that adheres to the Rhaegar abducted Lyanna and therefore is Jon's father theory that discourages fact checking. Rather than reevaluate, they double down and continue to repeat details that have been discredited many times over.

What I find really amusing is that we "miserable" Heretics are ridiculed and despised enough to get called out by this forum right around the time their World book was published. I wish I could find that quote again...

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19 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

how do we speculate that there are tunnels that run from the Wall, all the way to Winterfell? that distance alone would mean the excavation would take years, if not decades. Surely someone would acknowledge it? also if the Wall is venting above Winterfell, where is the material coming out of the ground. There should be a geyser of snow and magic to make that happen. Lastly, the storm seems to occur once the Boltons move in, and intensifies once Stannis starts to challenge. If it was just venting, why the peculiar timing? 

The tunnel theory is based on the in-world folk tale about Gendle and Gorne.

4 minutes ago, Demetri said:

Re: "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell." 

Consider the crypts. Remains of many starks, notable efforts to insure good likenesses/quality in statues (this is noted in several places and they start early with King Robert visiting Lyanna's grave at the very beginning. And yet, it is notable in omission that no servants have the duty to maintain the crypts. I think we can infer that it is a special place and a distinctly private place for Starks. (consider Bran's successful hiding and I believe mentions of massive amounts of wax (normally the job of servants.)

I've always kind of considered it as a temple created by the Starks. I personally think that the crypts are more important than Winterfell at large but can't really tell you why because GRRM writes like that (few AHA moments, but if you reflect after careful readings you'll realize you knew things you didn't know you knew). I'd be interested in exploring the concept of the crypts as being a Stark Temple. Temple is a slightly loaded word, but I do believe it observes a relationship with Winter, the land and the Starks. 

Perhaps the true purpose of the crypts is to keep true to the spirit of "must always be a Stark in Winterfell" without actually having something as mundane as a physical proximity requirement. As long as the crypt is generally kept up (not pristine candles but clean statues, continuing to place dead Starks there) fulfills the Stark in Winterfell requirement. Of course, even with that as a safety net, it is important to remember certain things even if the memory is just a tiny part of the greater whole. Within this particular post, let's assume that "must always be a Stark in Winterfell" could be a general reminder to the Starks that they were part of a pact that connected them to the North in a way beyond pure living arrangements. The actual "stark in winterfell" then, is the crypts itself or perhaps the most recent few deaths (oooh, that last bit is kind of interesting...)

The passage to the lower levels is said to be crumbling, but it is also sectioned off with iron bars. Iron is known to have warding properties, and just as the iron swords are said to prevent the dead from rising, the iron bars are warding something down below that the Starks of old didn't want let out. Many suspect that the Starks displaced the original family - even if the original were related. The wildlings tell of a "son" that wasn't like the "father", and that is why they refused to kneel.

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2 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The tunnel theory is based on the in-world folk tale about Gendle and Gorne.

I remember the tale, but they just used caves to cross the Wall, not invade Winterfell. Just the concept of tunnels running fromthe Wall to Winterfell is a little too much for me I guess. 

 

5 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The passage to the lower levels is said to be crumbling, but it is also sectioned off with iron bars. Iron is known to have warding properties, and just as the iron swords are said to prevent the dead from rising, the iron bars are warding something down below that the Starks of old didn't want let out. Many suspect that the Starks displaced the original family - even if the original were related. The wildlings tell of a "son" that wasn't like the "father", and that is why they refused to kneel.

I tend to speculate that the Crypts are a jail for something of importance to the Others. 

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The tunnel theory is based on the in-world folk tale about Gendle and Gorne.

The passage to the lower levels is said to be crumbling, but it is also sectioned off with iron bars. Iron is known to have warding properties, and just as the iron swords are said to prevent the dead from rising, the iron bars are warding something down below that the Starks of old didn't want let out. Many suspect that the Starks displaced the original family - even if the original were related. The wildlings tell of a "son" that wasn't like the "father", and that is why they refused to kneel.

Am I correct in assuming that y'all have used the historical site of the most notable Temple of Hades (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necromanteion_of_Acheron) to inform some/much of this? Cause the moment you said that my brain went right to it. It is actually a little too spot on regarding the iron bars, a bit uncharacteristically so for Martin. Not that that proves a thing, mind.

Edited by Demetri

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7 hours ago, LynnS said:

Even now, he's working on a video game and then he'll be working on something else, none of which will be tWoW.  He's just not engaged with it.

We can only wait and see. However, he has a much stronger motive to finish TWOW now than he's ever had before.

This is presumably not a situation he wants to have to endure for one day longer than he has to: people literally laughing at the piss-poor quality of a show they are also confident spoiled all the important points of his last two books.

Really, some of us have been laughing all along.  Back in season four, many were awed when Night King touched a baby's face with a fingernail.  But I was objecting that a newborn baby would never, ever survive weeks of travel to the uttermost north, cradled as it was next to a Popsicle, never being breastfed, exposed directly to the elements, etc... all to reach a Dark Lord who simply does not even exist in the books.

So GRRM, I am sure, would like to redeem himself and his work from the connection to that kind of trash, because the world has finally realized it's trash.  We'll see if he does.

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1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

Things were going well and Winter was going forward to Spring, then Lyanna was captured and the Starks were furious and the weather changed. 

How interesting. What a connection!

1 hour ago, Janneyc1 said:

1. If the Starks are controlling the weather, who is controlling the storm that dominates ADWD?

Great question.  If we continue with this line of thought, I am thinking that Jon (who either Ned or Lyanna's has Stark blood) may be doing it.  If it is linked to emotions, his feelings toward "Arya" being married to Ramsey Bolton may be causing it.  What would be interesting, and we really didn't get to explore in Dance, is if at the beginning of Winds, does the storm dissipate since Jon is dead?  Will it resurge if he is resurrected?

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

IMO the "when mountains blow in the wind like leaves" was a prophecy about the Wall.

Interesting. I took it to refer to the pyramids in Meereen.

45 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Whenever I get a wild hair and post something in the General or Reread areas, the jackals gnaw my bones until I can't stand it any longer and I crawl away.

It is so sad when this happens.  It is no secret that I am more conventional than most here, but I always try to disagree respectfully.  I would argue that both sides (heretics and conventionalists, for lack of a better descriptor) have tendencies to disregard textual support that may be counter to their own theories. Though certainly not all posters fall in these categories.  I have always found you delightful to discuss with, even when we disagree! :)

36 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

I tend to speculate that the Crypts are a jail for something of importance to the Others. 

Interesting thought!  I would agree with @Feather Crystalas well that iron is some sort of ward.  I think it will be of importance later that Bran, Hodor, Rickon and Osha took some swords from the crypts.

7 minutes ago, JNR said:

hey are also confident spoiled all the important points of his last two books.

I can only speak for myself, but I am of the opinion that some of those plot points will happen, but in different ways or in a different order.  For instance, I think that the battle against the Others will occur after the burning of KL - which I don't think will be because of Cersei, but Daenerys attacking Aegon and Arianne.  

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, Demetri said:

Am I correct in assuming that y'all have used the historical site of the most notable Temple of Hades (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necromanteion_of_Acheron) to inform some/much of this? Cause the moment you said that my brain went right to it. It is actually a little too spot on regarding the iron bars, a bit uncharacteristically so for Martin. Not that that proves a thing, mind.

I don't recall if we've ever discussed the Temple of Hades, but it does appear to be inspiration for the crypts.

14 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

It is so sad when this happens.  It is no secret that I am more conventional than most here, but I always try to disagree respectfully.  I would argue that both sides (heretics and conventionalists, for lack of a better descriptor) have tendencies to disregard textual support that may be counter to their own theories. Though certainly not all posters fall in these categories.  I have always found you delightful to discuss with, even when we disagree! :)

Thank you for the kind words. I'm glad you've found me agreeable to disagree with, but I know I can be disagreeable sometimes too if I feel like I'm deliberately being baited, then I turn like baby Jack-Jack. 

Edited by Feather Crystal

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On 5/21/2019 at 6:16 PM, Demetri said:

Here is a tiny seedling of a theory. It would also be a great location if the wall was actually literally covering something. I haven't fully worked out the kinks of this one, but given the Stark-Wall connection, perhaps it is a similarly powerful source of magic that caused the dragon to recognize its equal and antithesis (or, if not antithesis, that some latent power lurked in the wall.) A lot of the stories of the North, of the Starks (possible Winterfell connection here somewhere) and of the Wall make sense of the Wall wasn't actually guarding anything, but was itself being guarded.

...

(The following is more speculation and stream of consciousness than the preceding bits which I'm sure are still pretty raw)

The Wall weeping has always been a weird thing that has been noted again and again and again. It could be some sort of barometer for the honor of men or it could be a strong force of magic that isn't fully containable. We know the Wall weeps and that the Wall "defends itself", but perhaps those are more than simple rhetoric but the "telephone game" effect caused by the passage of thousands of years.

I have come across the idea over the years that the ice of the wall is indeed burying something or covering something. Weirwoods are one of the suggestions that I have seen, a dragon has been mentioned, (ice or fire in variety) and another is a line of castles or fortresses, not unlike the Five Fort's in Essos. I can see different aspects of these being possible. But the idea of the wall weeping is interesting, because that indicates heat. Now, it could be external heat, as is actually implied in the story. The day is warm, the wall is weeping. The sun is shining, the wall is weeping. But what if the source heat that causes the weeping comes from within the wall?

So, something hot, that is covered up, could indeed indicate a fire dragon. An internal heat source that makes the wall weep. That actually makes more sense than an ice dragon when you consider the weeping, but honestly, an ice dragon makes more sense in my head for a wall made of ice.  Perhaps a certain kind of stone could make ice weep, like the oily black stone that is mentioned through out the story and seems to have a mystical history to it. I have also speculated that there might be a heat source under the wall, much like Winterfell, with warm water that is piped through or under the wall, which could contribute to it's weeping. This makes the most real world sense, but isn't very magical at all, and there must be a magical component to what holds the wall together.

But when I think of weeping in the story, the other feeling I get is one of sorrow. Often weeping is mentioned in relation to sorrow or grief. Alyssa Arryn didn't shed a tear for her dead husband and children and her punishment is to weep until her tears reach the valley floor in the Eyrie. So, is what ever is encased in the wall actually weeping in sorrow? And what kind of power does it have if it needs to be covered with ton's of ice? The wall seems to be in place before the Night's Queen/King story, so it can't be her that is weeping. But we do have other hints of bodies buried in the wall, like the 79 Sentinal's, so I don't think it's unheard of to think that something powerful and sad is buried under/within that ice.

 

On 5/21/2019 at 6:16 PM, Demetri said:

To me, this shows that the wall is inherently a magical thing, but we knew that. My understanding of the concept of Heresy is that one good starting place is that the wall wasn't built to keep out WWs. Here, we have a magically driven beast representing the elemental opposite of the Others, an apex predator that has traveled across Westeros and likely fears nothing. And yet there is a compulsive and overpowering urge by the dragon to not cross the wall. Upon arrival at Castle Black (the structure of the passage suggests upon arrival at least at some point before trying to fly over it), Alysanne notes that "[Silverwing] does not like this Wall"

Well, this is interesting. Do you think that a dragon could be north of the wall, approach from that direction, and still not be willing to cross? Because the problem itself is the wall, and not what is north of it? This actually makes some sense to me. I have speculated years ago that what happened at Hardhome could be the attack of a dragon, but if a dragon cannot cross the wall, then there should be no dragon at Hardhome. Except, if a dragon can be north of the wall, but not over the wall, then it makes me think what ever the wall is covering is not a dragon.

 

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On 5/22/2019 at 8:50 AM, Brad Stark said:

Mel burning Shireen without her parents knowledge or permission doesn't have the same impact, and also sets Selyse and Stannis against Melisandre.  I believe it will be Selyse who hands her daughter over to be burnt.

 

23 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Respect your opinion. But firmly disagree. There is a ton of foreshadowing, from Shireen dreaming of being ate by a dragon, to Melisandre wanting to burn Edric (that Stannis was leaning towards consenting to). If things get desperate enough, I think this could happen. It may not be Stannis but Selyse that does it though, that I will grant you. 

 

22 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I don't question whether or not Stannis is capable of consenting to sacrificing Shireen, I only question whether or not he'll live long enough to do so, since he may not survive the Battle of Winterfell. However, if he does survive, then I think the stage is set--he'll either take Winterfell at great cost, or even worse, lose and be forced to flee as he did at the Blackwater. Flee, or return to the place that he has ominously chosen as his temporary home at the Wall:

 

21 hours ago, Mimessa said:

I'm of a mind that Stannis is linked to Agamemnon, who was told by a priestess that he must sacrifice is daughter Iphigenia in order to gain Artemis' favor and sail on for Troy. He does so, sails on, and goes to war. If Stannis makes this horrible religiously significant sacrifice, he is maybe going to have the final tempering of whatever Lightbringer is with Shireen being his Nissa Nissa on his mind, therefore feeding into his own AA obsession and beliefs about himself. JNSP but I am starting my own re-read and I am thrilled to comb back through these events...

Selyse seems likely, she seems to have adopted R'hllor with ease and doesn't seem bothered by the burning of her own uncle, but is likely what GRRM will go for? As was mentioned already in this thread, we do have the story of Agamemnon sacrificing his daughter Iphigenia to the gods for good winds to take the Greek fleet across the sea to Troy. This then caused Agamemnon's wife Clytemnestra to seek revenge against her husband, eventually killing him or having him killed after he returned from the Trojan war. So, in this vein, could it be Stannis that actually sacrifices Shireen, which then would anger Selyse. I don't think Selyse has any great love for Shireen, but Shireen is Selyse's only connection to the throne, since Shireen is the heir of both of them, and the story implies there will be no more children of Stannis and Selyse. So, if Stannis does sacrifice Shireen, then Selyse has lost what ever claim to power that she has. 

Still, it's hard to imagine Stannis sacrificing his heir! But it's possible that Stannis will realize that this war us much bigger than who sit's on the Iron Throne. IF Stannis does this thing, then will it be Selyse that is responsible for Stannis' death? She seeks revenge on him, like Clytemnestra did to Agamemnon?  A very good reason for Stannis to think he has no recourse but to do this is if he loses the Battle at Winterfell, and he might. This lose might drive him to desperate measures, and when Stannis gave his seed to Mel, he lost a bit of himself. How many times has he done this? How much of himself has he lost?

Nothing like a good Greek tragedy in the mix!

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12 minutes ago, St Daga said:

A very good reason for Stannis to think he has no recourse but to do this is if he loses the Battle at Winterfell, and he might. This lose might drive him to desperate measures, and when Stannis gave his seed to Mel, he lost a bit of himself. How many times has he done this? How much of himself has he lost?

After I had posted my comment that you quoted above, I had another thought that I mentioned in a lower portion of the thread.  If Stannis dies during the battle of Winterfell, I could see Selyse giving Shireen to the flames in an attempt to resurrect Stannis.  I predict that he would not resurrect, however.  More likely, I would think that it will bring Jon back.

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On 5/22/2019 at 8:55 AM, Feather Crystal said:

Speaking of coins with the two sides of heads and tails...it has just dawned on me that there may be an alternate meaning to "three heads of the dragon". Aren't there gold dragon coins?

The three heads might be translated as being a total of three times that dragons won the coin toss. GRRM has said that there once were dragons all over Westeros in the ancient past. Perhaps this was prior to the Long Night and before the white walkers came? The Long Night was the first time that tails came up and white walkers won the toss. Then Aegon and his sisters were the third coin toss and the second time dragons came up as "heads". The current return of white walkers is the fourth coin toss, and the second time tails won. Daenerys and her dragons are the fifth coin toss, making it the third time that "heads" won.

It's a good call to mention the gold dragon coins. I am not sure that gold is ever mentioned in regards to Trios, but its certainly a color associated with dragons (coinage) and Targaryen's. We do have the idea of three heads of Trios but the middle head is the unknown. Now, I think it has some thing to do with resurrection, but if it has to do with dragon's (and by this I mean Tagaryen's) then, perhaps the unknown is in regards to what happens to decide if a Targaryen turns out mad or sane? I am going to have to look into Hollard castle with it's three gold topped towers and also the keep near the wall with the gold crown painted on it, where Alysanne was supposed to have spent a night.

 

Quote

"I am no maester to quote history at you, Your Grace. Swords have been my life, not books. But every child knows that the Targaryens have always danced too close to madness. Your father was not the first. King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land." ASOS-Daenerys VI

 

23 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Keeping with the coin analogy - the middle tower is the edge of the coin. It's neither heads nor tails.

I see that perhaps the middle head is the decision. Say heads is sanity/greatness, tails is madness (or vice versa), and the middle head is the coin flipping, the determination of how the coin will land.

 

23 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The storm that Storms End was built to withstand was actually against two gods: the Sea God (water) and the Goddess of the Wind (wind), who I believe are also the Drowned God (water) and the Storm God (wind). A Storm Lord would not embody any of these gods. He would actually be the shield against these two gods, and thus he would be more like the middle tower that doesn't seem to do anything, because - back to the coin analogy - he's the edge of the coin and neither heads nor tails. 

I see this a bit differently, and I think the Storm lord and his descendants carry the power of the storm, the water and wind, within themselves. Elenai was the child of both the god of the sea and the goddess of the winds, and when she became mortal and married Durran Godsgreif, she passed those genes into her children and down the line of Storm kings or lords, from House Durrandon and into House Baratheon, the sea and wind and storm is part of that line. There are many analogies in the story to Baratheon's who are "the storm" or whom embody and embrace storm traits!

 

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