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Heresy 222 vindication

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5 minutes ago, Direwolf Blitzer said:

Clegane is not a knight, though. It's a big part of his character. Even upon elevation to the Kingsguard he refuses knighthood. I think Clegane represents your position, in fact; he sees the hypocrisy of the system, and to the degree he can resist being a part of it, he does. (Still murdered a kid, but hey)

 

This doesn't wash. GRRM is pretty even with his religions; there are good and bad elements to all of them. There are drunken, greedy septons, sure. There's also Meribald and the men of the Quiet Isle. And by the time Dance rolls around, the faith is undergoing a sort of internal reformation and seeing the emergence of pious orders dedicated to serving the poor, etc. 

Beyond that, "the Faith" is too abstract for this particular vision. As has been said elsewhere, the things Bran sees in this vision are happening, as Keifer Sutherland would say, in real time.

I had updated my post while you were commenting and inserted that the armor symbolized "knighthood" and the black blood was the Faith. This was very true for the Catholic church which was the driving force behind the Crusades. Killing in the name of "faith" is not an abstract concept. It's very true to life.

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8 minutes ago, Direwolf Blitzer said:

Beyond that, "the Faith" is too abstract for this particular vision. As has been said elsewhere, the things Bran sees in this vision are happening, as Keifer Sutherland would say, in real time.

I would add that Bran is seeing all this in real time, and while I believe the giant armor encompasses more than one knight, it's moreso King Robert than anyone else. Everyone thinks he was Ned's closest and dearest friend, but I have a strong feeling that we'll find out that he was part of a huge betrayal. His guilt was hidden under the guise of "knighthood" and all the chivalry and honor people believe knights have, but they are simply brutal soldiers carrying out the dirty deeds under somebody else's orders.

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To expand on the giant armor and black blood - this is all is a lead in to my central theory that encompasses the main plot of ASOIAF.

I believe Robert Baratheon was complicit in Lyanna's abduction and that is was a repeat of the ancient story of Durran Godsgrief and Elenei. Lyanna was the magic moon maiden (Elenei) and Robert was the Lord of Storm's End. Robert was part of Tywin's backup plan to create a group disguised as Rhaegar and his men. Prior to this, Tywin's first group disguised themselves as the outlaws named the Kingswood Brotherhood with the purpose of taking out Elia.

Tywin wanted Elia dead to make way for Rhaegar to marry Cersei. Unbeknownst to Rhaegar, his wife's survival doomed his own, because Tywin was forced to come up with his backup plan. Hightower was meant to die as well, because he was so faithful to King Aerys and couldn't be bought. Ser Arthur Dayne may have been more complicit, unless he actually tried to help Lyanna get away and failed, but since I believe he was in Kings Landing protecting Elia and the children during the Sack, he must have survived the takedown of the Brotherhood Without Banners. I posit that they rounded up a bunch of commoners to take the fall so that Arthur and/or King Aerys would believe they got the outlaws. Ulmer is the only character that might be able to confirm this theory, and he's an old man currently living at the Wall. Of course, there's always Lem Lemoncloak, if he's either Gerold Hightower or Arthur Dayne. His physical description fits Gerold, but being friends with the commoners and having a soiled cloak fits Arthur. Of course he may be neither and simply meant to be a parallel of these two men.

It would be easy for Tywin to order a suit of armor that looked just like Rhaegar's to undermine his cause to overthrow his father. Robert was his willing patsy. He may not have known exactly what happened to Lyanna, but he certainly knew Tywin was on his side during the Rebellion. Gregor Clegane carried out the actual kidnapping, raping, and injuries that Lyanna died from, but Robert was complicit in Tywin's plans to spark the Rebellion, and likely knew a whole lot more than we could ever suspect. IMO the imagery surrounding his death with his bloody red teeth is meant to connect him to the Smiling Knight, and I feel quite confident that we will learn of his betrayal in the future books.

The Faith and the Citadel are the black armor with the black blood. The Faith encouraged the Storm God disguised as The Smiling Knight to kidnap the Moonmaid in order to prevent ice magic from returning to power. Is it possible the Faith knew the seasonal cycles were hinting at a return to ice magic? In any case, Robert's actions led to the near extinction of House Stark. This is why Bran sees a gathering storm surrounding Robert near the Trident.

The in-world mythology of Durran Godsgrief and Elenei has replayed as Robert and Lyanna. Perhaps Robert's motivation was that he held a grudge against the old gods for killing his parents? The Faith took the Iron Throne from the Targaryens using an Andal King, but for me the bigger story, if true, is the deceit of Robert Baratheon. Imagine the ramifications if it comes to light that Robert conspired with both the Faith and Tywin Lannister to kidnap and kill Lyanna just to rid the realm of Aerys and Rhaegar. This is an example of how the victors get to write history.

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1 hour ago, St Daga said:

Okay. I see what you are saying. So, the sacrifice takes all the heat from a living Nissa Nissa and leaves her only a cold version of the Night's Queen. Do you have a link to this specific theory?

What implications could this have for someone to play the role of Nissa Nissa in our current story? Dany is associated with fire and heat, and also Sansa, with that warm Tully hair that glows like copper in the fire light. If you take all the heat out of a Stark maid, are you left with only ice and cold? Melisandre also has fiery "copper" hair and a burning heat within her. But part of me feels she is already dead, so I am not sure if she could work for this.

I wish I did.  It wasn't on here...it was some article that appeared when I was reading prediction articles for Season 8 before it was out.  It caught me so off guard, though, that I went and reread those passages in the text.  Symeon Star Eyes was involved in it, too, with the "star eyes" being a reference to the Others, but I can't remember exactly how he factored in.  Wish I was more helpful, but you can get the gist of what was going on.  The idea of the Others being destroyed yet simultaneously recreated was intriguing to me. 

Now, I have been searching for a particular quote that I have been unable to find (which leaves me starting to worry if I dreamt it) that said that Azor Ahai had 12 companions.  Thus, he could be the 13th.  This is interesting because the Night's King was the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. I am wondering if AA and the Night's King are the same person.  It would be interesting take to the "everyone's corruptible" or the Batman quote "you either die a hero or live long enough to become the villain".   Falling in love with his Nissa Nissa again, who is now a female Other and then having to be defeated himself.

 

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@St Daga amazing ideas dear! Both the rivers connection to Trios and turtles hiding themselves inside their kabuk* House Estermont has a turtle sigil and they could have a hidden Baratheon bastard, also current lord is married to Arianne's friend Sylva who might know who told Doran about her Quernmaker plans. Now speaking of rivers Bloodraven says time is a river, Haldon says rivers flow to one direction so when Shy Maid ends up at the same point with different results we are to witness a breaking point in our story where events will repeat themselves with different results. 

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1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

 

Now, I have been searching for a particular quote that I have been unable to find (which leaves me starting to worry if I dreamt it) that said that Azor Ahai had 12 companions.  Thus, he could be the 13th.  This is interesting because the Night's King was the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. I am wondering if AA and the Night's King are the same person.  It would be interesting take to the "everyone's corruptible" or the Batman quote "you either die a hero or live long enough to become the villain".   Falling in love with his Nissa Nissa again, who is now a female Other and then having to be defeated himself.

 

It was the last hero who had 12 companions making a company of 13

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4 hours ago, St Daga said:

But saved in what way? Like a metaphysical existence after death? Or a rebirth for Shireen after death? Because Selyse would be loosing her heir to the throne, and that feels lacking foresight to me from Selyse's perspective. However, I suppose it could be said that if Mel also promises Selyse that she and Stannis would have another heir together, this might work. Even if Selyse is bat shit crazy, she still seems connected enough to the throne not to let that go so easily. I could be very wrong about her, though. :dunno: She has certainly embraced R'Hllor in a way Stannis has not seemed to.

 

I was thinking in terms of their immortal souls, and cleansing them of their corrupt corporeal bodies

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22 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

It was the last hero who had 12 companions making a company of 13

Ah, thank you.  Please correct me if I am wrong, but it can be presumed that the last hero is the same person as Azor Ahai.

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34 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

@St Daga amazing ideas dear! Both the rivers connection to Trios and turtles hiding themselves inside their kabuk* House Estermont has a turtle sigil and they could have a hidden Baratheon bastard, also current lord is married to Arianne's friend Sylva who might know who told Doran about her Quernmaker plans. Now speaking of rivers Bloodraven says time is a river, Haldon says rivers flow to one direction so when Shy Maid ends up at the same point with different results we are to witness a breaking point in our story where events will repeat themselves with different results. 

Thanks. Now that you mention the apparent time loop for the Shy Maid on the Rhoyne, this does make me feel strongly that the middle head of Trios is the decision maker, and in the case of the Shy Maid, they were given more than one chance through the middle head. So, can you go through again and again until your fate is correct? But that means that the stoneman fate was intended for JonCon? And how does that affect Tyrion, who swallowed the grey scale water?

Also interesting that prior to this foggy time loop, in the previous chapter, they see a giant turtle and Ysilla cries from joy and says they are blessed. In this case, was that part of the decision of their fate? Seeing the giant turtle, then the time loop...

I do wonder about House Estermont. Robert was said to have had an affair with an Estermont cousin after his wedding to Cersei, and I speculate this is not the first affair with this cousin. My tinfoil is that Renly is Robert's bastard by an Estermont, and the girls high birth and connection to Robert's mother, caused Steffan and Cassana to claim this child as their third son. Of course, Renly is dead, but I think it's possible there is another bastard from this Robert/Estermont cousin, a child around Joffrey's age. Hidden inside the turtle is a really great deduction!

 

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7 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Thanks. Now that you mention the apparent time loop for the Shy Maid on the Rhoyne, this does make me feel strongly that the middle head of Trios is the decision maker, and in the case of the Shy Maid, they were given more than one chance through the middle head. So, can you go through again and again until your fate is correct? But that means that the stoneman fate was intended for JonCon? And how does that affect Tyrion, who swallowed the grey scale water?

Also interesting that prior to this foggy time loop, in the previous chapter, they see a giant turtle and Ysilla cries from joy and says they are blessed. In this case, was that part of the decision of their fate? Seeing the giant turtle, then the time loop...

I do wonder about House Estermont. Robert was said to have had an affair with an Estermont cousin after his wedding to Cersei, and I speculate this is not the first affair with this cousin. My tinfoil is that Renly is Robert's bastard by an Estermont, and the girls high birth and connection to Robert's mother, caused Steffan and Cassana to claim this child as their third son. Of course, Renly is dead, but I think it's possible there is another bastard from this Robert/Estermont cousin, a child around Joffrey's age. Hidden inside the turtle is a really great deduction!

 

I was going to bring up Renly too but I have limited amount of tinfoil tonight, I always thought Edric Storm could end up at the hands of Illyrio due to his rivalry with Sallador Saan but Sylva may provide us with a Baratheon bastard too maybe showing their loyalty to new Targaryen king? Knowing Gendry ended up being a legimate lord in the show there is a great chance for Aegon to do same, Storm lords will love their miniature Robert.

I wonder what triggered Shrouded Lord at that time to send his minions, aka turtles, most say it was because Aegon's identity was revealed but what if it was another event that happened at the same time in a different place?   

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1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I wish I did.  It wasn't on here...it was some article that appeared when I was reading prediction articles for Season 8 before it was out.  It caught me so off guard, though, that I went and reread those passages in the text.  Symeon Star Eyes was involved in it, too, with the "star eyes" being a reference to the Others, but I can't remember exactly how he factored in.  Wish I was more helpful, but you can get the gist of what was going on.  The idea of the Others being destroyed yet simultaneously recreated was intriguing to me. 

Now, I have been searching for a particular quote that I have been unable to find (which leaves me starting to worry if I dreamt it) that said that Azor Ahai had 12 companions.  Thus, he could be the 13th.  This is interesting because the Night's King was the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. I am wondering if AA and the Night's King are the same person.  It would be interesting take to the "everyone's corruptible" or the Batman quote "you either die a hero or live long enough to become the villain".   Falling in love with his Nissa Nissa again, who is now a female Other and then having to be defeated himself.

Maybe I can do some searching and see if I can find it. If not, I do get the gist of the idea. I think the star eye connection to the Other's is also made to The Stranger is made when Cat visit's the sept near Storm's End. 

Quote

 

Catelyn studied the faces. The Father was bearded, as ever. The Mother smiled, loving and protective. The Warrior had his sword sketched in beneath his face, the Smith his hammer. The Maid was beautiful, the Crone wizened and wise.
 
And the seventh face . . . the Stranger was neither male nor female, yet both, ever the outcast, the wanderer from far places, less and more than human, unknown and unknowable. Here the face was a black oval, a shadow with stars for eyes. It made Catelyn uneasy.  ACOK-Catelyn IV

 

I would say the Stranger/Other connection is also made to skin changers, since several images of the Stranger are noted to have animal like features or be half-human. And perhaps the Other's can never truly be destroyed, as there is always a cycle in play.

 

I have never seen this idea on Azor Ahai having companions but I think it's speculated that Azor Ahai and the Last Hero are the same person, so perhaps that is where you are making that connection?

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32 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I was thinking in terms of their immortal souls, and cleansing them of their corrupt corporeal bodies

Yes, this appears to be a R'hllorist premise, and Martin had intended to depict it visually in his original draft for S4's "The Lion and the Rose," which became publicly available last year at the WGA Library.

This was Martin's original vision for a burning Melisandre was to oversee:

Quote

The flames CHANGE COLOR: one burns purple, one green, one silver-white. Then a GASP rises from the onlookers, for above the fires, just for an instant, we SEE the three victims rising from their pyres, made young and strong and beautiful again, smiling as they ascend to the sky.

Presumably, this was to be a glamour cast by Mel, but it is still suggestive as to what Red Priests preach about the fate of the burned.

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22 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Ah, thank you.  Please correct me if I am wrong, but it can be presumed that the last hero is the same person as Azor Ahai.

No, it can not. There is certainly a popular fan theory that they are one and the same, but I would dispute that vigorously. If there is a connection it is more likely to lie in the mirroring of east and west suggested by Feather

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40 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I was thinking in terms of their immortal souls, and cleansing them of their corrupt corporeal bodies

Poor Shireen, if this is the case. That her mother and Mel think she needs to be cleansed in such as way as fire, no matter the eventual spiritual outcome. The other people we have seen burned by Mel or her followers so far have been burned as a form of punishment, even if she says this is the purest form of death. But what you are saying does fit what Ser Godry seems to be stating in The Sacrifice chapter. A death by fire that leads to a pure ascension to the light!

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6 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I would say the Stranger/Other connection is also made to skin changers, since several images of the Stranger are noted to have animal like features or be half-human. And perhaps the Other's can never truly be destroyed, as there is always a cycle in play.

Very interesting! I have wondered if the Others were somehow connected with "death" as described by the Faceless Men, but this is an interesting take on that.

 

6 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I have never seen this idea on Azor Ahai having companions but I think it's speculated that Azor Ahai and the Last Hero are the same person, so perhaps that is where you are making that connection?

 

2 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

No, it can not. There is certainly a popular fan theory that they are one and the same, but I would dispute that vigorously. If there is a connection it is more likely to lie in the mirroring of east and west suggested by Feather

Ah, yes, I think I am conflating the two.  From the text, I have always taken them all to be the same thing, a different telling of the same tale.

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2 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Poor Shireen, if this is the case. That her mother and Mel think she needs to be cleansed in such as way as fire, no matter the eventual spiritual outcome. The other people we have seen burned by Mel or her followers so far have been burned as a form of punishment, even if she says this is the purest form of death. But what you are saying does fit what Ser Godry seems to be stating in The Sacrifice chapter. A death by fire that leads to a pure ascension to the light!

Its something the Holy Inquisition was prone to do.

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7 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

I wonder what triggered Shrouded Lord at that time to send his minions, aka turtles, most say it was because Aegon's identity was revealed but what if it was another event that happened at the same time in a different place?   

It makes more sense to me that it was something else. Even if Tyrion figured out or thinks he figured out Aegon's identity, that doesn't really change anything with Aegon/Young Griff. The turtle/Shrouded Lord would always have known, or that's how it seems to me. So, what other event might have happened? And could it be on a river in Westeros, to serve as a type of inverted parallel of a river in Essos?

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2 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:
10 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I would say the Stranger/Other connection is also made to skin changers, since several images of the Stranger are noted to have animal like features or be half-human. And perhaps the Other's can never truly be destroyed, as there is always a cycle in play.

Very interesting! I have wondered if the Others were somehow connected with "death" as described by the Faceless Men, but this is an interesting take on that.

It makes sense to me that the Other's connect to The Stranger and that the Stranger is connected to the House of Black and White and the Faceless men. We also have the idea that the Faceless men have sought out Arya of House Stark, and we have hints within the story of the Stark's having face changing ability. Even if it's just in expression, in Bran's very first POV, he talks about Ned having "father's face" and wearing "Lord Starks face". 

Quote

Bran's father sat solemnly on his horse, long brown hair stirring in the wind. His closely trimmed beard was shot with white, making him look older than his thirty-five years. He had a grim cast to his grey eyes this day, and he seemed not at all the man who would sit before the fire in the evening and talk softly of the age of heroes and the children of the forest. He had taken off Father's face, Bran thought, and donned the face of Lord Stark of Winterfell. AGOT-Bran I

And later in the same chapter, we get:

Quote

Bran saw his father's face change, saw the other men exchange glances. AGOT-Bran I

There are allusions in the story to Robb and Jon doing this as well, the face changing/role changing thing. I think it's linked to the Stark's underlying warg/skinchanger gene, and we know that all the Stark children are wargs, therefore have that gene. Ned obviously displays this odd wording tied to possible ability several times in the text. 

We will also hear about Pyat Pree's face changing in an odd manner, so I also speculate about the Warlock's of Qarth. I am not sure if it's the same thing or just something similar, since the Warlock's are associated with the Shade of the Evening, which seems to be an inversion of the Weirwood, which seems to be connected to the Westerosi skinchangers and the Starks.

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14 minutes ago, Black Crow said:
17 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Poor Shireen, if this is the case. That her mother and Mel think she needs to be cleansed in such as way as fire, no matter the eventual spiritual outcome. The other people we have seen burned by Mel or her followers so far have been burned as a form of punishment, even if she says this is the purest form of death. But what you are saying does fit what Ser Godry seems to be stating in The Sacrifice chapter. A death by fire that leads to a pure ascension to the light!

Its something the Holy Inquisition was prone to do.

Yes! That is exactly what it sounds like!

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On 5/23/2019 at 11:57 AM, St Daga said:

Where does Selyse's belief in resurrection come from? It's not something the Melisandre seems to promote. However, there have been some interesting thoughts on Shireen's death leading to Jon's rebirth. Also, something about Shireen's greyscale is important, however, and it might play out if she is burned!

Shireen releases greyscale spores and contaminates everyone downwind of the pyre. 

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