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Heresy 222 vindication

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43 minutes ago, St Daga said:

It makes more sense to me that it was something else. Even if Tyrion figured out or thinks he figured out Aegon's identity, that doesn't really change anything with Aegon/Young Griff. The turtle/Shrouded Lord would always have known, or that's how it seems to me. So, what other event might have happened? And could it be on a river in Westeros, to serve as a type of inverted parallel of a river in Essos?

Is there a AFFC/ADWD timeline to help us? Btw not related to this subject, human faced rats Daenerys saw in HotU that ravishes a woman is actually Jorah/Arstan conquering Mereen through sewages, I think Jorah says they as the rats took the city for her. 

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25 minutes ago, St Daga said:

We will also hear about Pyat Pree's face changing in an odd manner, so I also speculate about the Warlock's of Qarth. I am not sure if it's the same thing or just something similar, since the Warlock's are associated with the Shade of the Evening, which seems to be an inversion of the Weirwood, which seems to be connected to the Westerosi skinchangers and the Starks.

It is interesting that you bring up Pyat Pree and Qarth.  I have shared this idea elsewhere, only to have it shot down fairly quickly, but perhaps the heretics will listen with open ears!

After Daenerys leaves the House of the Undying, it is reported that the glass candles are burning for the first time in hundreds of years.  It is specifically noted that the glass candle in the house of Urrathon Nightwalker is burning.  During all discussions of glass candles, it appears that glass candles are an uncommon, if not rare, artifact.  Other people that we know who collect rare artifacts of Valyrian lineage include Euron Greyjoy.  Interestingly, who currently has Pyat Pree? Euron.  Also interesting, is that Urrathon is the name of an old king of the Iron Islands, who is known to history as Urrathon Badbrother.  Thus, I think that Urrathon is an alias of Euron Greyjoy and I think he took up residence in Qarth after his exile from the Iron Islands.  I also think it is interesting that Nightwalker sounds an awful lot like something associated with the Others.

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Xaro looked troubled. "And so it was, then. But now? I am less certain. It is said that the glass candles are burning in the house of Urrathon Night-Walker, that have not burned in a hundred years

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Pate knew about the glass candles, though he had never seen one burn. They were the worst-kept secret of the Citadel. It was said that they had been brought to Oldtown from Valyria a thousand years before the Doom. He had heard there were four; one was green and three were black, and all were tall and twisted.

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Upon the death of King Urragon III Greyiron (Urragon the Bald), his younger sons hurriedly convened a kingsmoot whilst their elder brother Torgon was raiding up the Mander, thinking that one of them would be chosen to wear the driftwood crown. To their dismay, the captains and kings chose Urrathon Goodbrother of Great Wyk instead. The first thing the new king did was command that the sons of the old king be put to death. For that, and for the savage cruelty he oft displayed during his two years as king, Urrathon IV Goodbrother is remembered in history as Badbrother.

 

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1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Ah, thank you.  Please correct me if I am wrong, but it can be presumed that the last hero is the same person as Azor Ahai.

Of course you can, but that would be presumptuous.

Again, I can't find the SSM, but GRRM talks about Azor Ahai being a myth or legend, more so than a historical figure.  So this is similar to how multiple cultures have a 'Flood Story', not just the Bible.  Are Noah and Utnapishtim the same person?  I would argue that they are the same person, even if that person never really existed, and if these stories were based on the same real person, who he was or what he did might not resemble the stories at all.

From this perspective, the Last Hero, Azor Ahai, and the lady with the monkey tail are all the same person. 

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4 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

It is interesting that you bring up Pyat Pree and Qarth.  I have shared this idea elsewhere, only to have it shot down fairly quickly, but perhaps the heretics will listen with open ears!

After Daenerys leaves the House of the Undying, it is reported that the glass candles are burning for the first time in hundreds of years.  It is specifically noted that the glass candle in the house of Urrathon Nightwalker is burning.  During all discussions of glass candles, it appears that glass candles are an uncommon, if not rare, artifact.  Other people that we know who collect rare artifacts of Valyrian lineage include Euron Greyjoy.  Interestingly, who currently has Pyat Pree? Euron.  Also interesting, is that Urrathon is the name of an old king of the Iron Islands, who is known to history as Urrathon Badbrother.  Thus, I think that Urrathon is an alias of Euron Greyjoy and I think he took up residence in Qarth after his exile from the Iron Islands.  I also think it is interesting that Nightwalker sounds an awful lot like something associated with the Others.

It has been discussed over at The Last Hearth that Euron and Urrathon are the same person (and probably here, too), and I really think it's possible. I actually think Euron is the Three Eyed Crow that is contacting Bran, and he is using a glass candle to do it. That would indicate the glass candles have been burning longer than Dany's visit to the House of the Undying would let us believe, though. She might even be receiving all of her dreams, and they start early in the story, with the use of a glass candle. Even if Euron is not using a glass candle, I am convinced that Euron is attempting to use Bran, and perhaps through the weirnet. I agree that the Urrathon Nightwalker name is just too much to ignore in connection to Euron. Personally, I think magic has been coming back into the world slowly since before the start of our book, and that would include the glass candles. Even in the prologue of Game, magic is happening when Waymar duels the White Walker, so I think it's plausible that at least one glass candle has been lit for a while. We hear of Urrathon's candle burning, but we also hear that at least one candle is burning in the Citadel, in Marwyn's study. The timeline for the lighting of these candles, or however many more there might be, is very vague.

My only question is, how does communication with the candles differ from the weirnet, and in what ways is it the same?

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1 hour ago, Jova Snow said:

@St Daga amazing ideas dear! Both the rivers connection to Trios and turtles hiding themselves inside their kabuk* House Estermont has a turtle sigil and they could have a hidden Baratheon bastard, also current lord is married to Arianne's friend Sylva who might know who told Doran about her Quernmaker plans. Now speaking of rivers Bloodraven says time is a river, Haldon says rivers flow to one direction so when Shy Maid ends up at the same point with different results we are to witness a breaking point in our story where events will repeat themselves with different results. 

IMO the Shy Maid's repeat trip under the Bridge of Sorrows is meant to demonstrate what happens when history repeats. The second time around causes problems. Ysilla's exclamation that seeing the great turtle was a blessing could be viewed as an allegory. If the Children and their greenseers are responsible for the wheel of time and the repeated historical events, then the perceived blessing means they moved forward full of hope that this was going to save the weirwoods, but it ended up being a calamitous and grievous mistake. The Shrouded Lord is cursed, so it seems odd that people would associate the Old Man of the River with the Shrouded Lord. They could, however, be two sides of the same coin with the Old Man turtle being the blessed side and the Shrouded Lord being the cursed side.

2 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

It is interesting that you bring up Pyat Pree and Qarth.  I have shared this idea elsewhere, only to have it shot down fairly quickly, but perhaps the heretics will listen with open ears!

After Daenerys leaves the House of the Undying, it is reported that the glass candles are burning for the first time in hundreds of years.  It is specifically noted that the glass candle in the house of Urrathon Nightwalker is burning.  During all discussions of glass candles, it appears that glass candles are an uncommon, if not rare, artifact.  Other people that we know who collect rare artifacts of Valyrian lineage include Euron Greyjoy.  Interestingly, who currently has Pyat Pree? Euron.  Also interesting, is that Urrathon is the name of an old king of the Iron Islands, who is known to history as Urrathon Badbrother.  Thus, I think that Urrathon is an alias of Euron Greyjoy and I think he took up residence in Qarth after his exile from the Iron Islands.  I also think it is interesting that Nightwalker sounds an awful lot like something associated with the Others.

 

Why do you think Euron Greyjoy is of Valyrian lineage? 

I think Euron learned the secrets of the wizards, because he's got a whole vat or barrel of the blue liquid and he drinks it to have visions. Part of being the Crow's Eye is his ability to see through the glass candles just as Bloodraven and Bran see through the weirwoods. Euron's view is from high in the sky - thus the Crow's Eye moniker, but it may be that he is seeing everything through a glass candle on his ship.

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21 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

Is there a AFFC/ADWD timeline to help us? Btw not related to this subject, human faced rats Daenerys saw in HotU that ravishes a woman is actually Jorah/Arstan conquering Mereen through sewages, I think Jorah says they as the rats took the city for her. 

I'm sure there is a timeline some where that is pretty accurate. Probably just piecing together Feast and Dance in chapter order might help. I have never read the two books in combination before, only one and then the other.

I have not heard this idea on the rats and the capture of Meereen. Interesting, if it's the truth, because then Dany's is responsible for the rats feasting on Meereen, although I would argue that neither the Harpy nor any of the Ghiscari cities are like a "beautiful woman".

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Posted (edited)

Joffrey dies at the end of A Storm of Swords, and his wedding to Margaery was set for the "first day of the new century", so I would say A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons begin and occur simultaneously early in year 300.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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Posted (edited)

The irony of the Old Man of the River is that it could be a nod to the author himself. GRRM owned pet turtles as a young boy. He went through a number of them, because they kept dying and he'd replace them, so he started writing stories about them and how they died. I can't help but wonder if we're supposed to keep his childhood turtle stories in mind in conjunction with the time loops? Each story began with a new turtle - I wonder if each turtle was named Brandon???

The first time the Shy Maid drifted under the bridge they were blessed by the turtle and passed undetected, but the second time loop was cursed and stone men dropped down upon them. I can't help but recall Dalla's quote that The Horned Lord said sorcery is a double edged sword without a hilt. Jon followed that up with, a sword without a hilt is still a sword - which is likely how the Children viewed their actions. They understood that there would be unforeseen consequences, but they felt drastic measures were needed to stop humans from chopping down the weirwoods.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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42 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Why do you think Euron Greyjoy is of Valyrian lineage? 

I think they just mean the artifacts are Valyrian.

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52 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

IMO the Shy Maid's repeat trip under the Bridge of Sorrows is meant to demonstrate what happens when history repeats. The second time around causes problems. Ysilla's exclamation that seeing the great turtle was a blessing could be viewed as an allegory. If the Children and their greenseers are responsible for the wheel of time and the repeated historical events, then the perceived blessing means they moved forward full of hope that this was going to save the weirwoods, but it ended up being a calamitous and grievous mistake. The Shrouded Lord is cursed, so it seems odd that people would associate the Old Man of the River with the Shrouded Lord. They could, however, be two sides of the same coin with the Old Man turtle being the blessed side and the Shrouded Lord being the cursed side.

Why do you think Euron Greyjoy is of Valyrian lineage? 

I think Euron learned the secrets of the wizards, because he's got a whole vat or barrel of the blue liquid and he drinks it to have visions. Part of being the Crow's Eye is his ability to see through the glass candles just as Bloodraven and Bran see through the weirwoods. Euron's view is from high in the sky - thus the Crow's Eye moniker, but it may be that he is seeing everything through a glass candle on his ship.

Not that he is of Valyrian lineage, only that he collects artifacts of that type (the horn, armor, etc)

@St Daga I think Euron is associated with the Three Eyes Crow As well, possibly as a disciple

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16 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

@St Daga I think Euron is associated with the Three Eyes Crow As well, possibly as a disciple

I have suspected that as a child, Euron was contacted and an attempt was made to train him in the same was as we see with Bran. But I think that might have been Bloodraven reaching out to Euron and then things went wrong, and Euron becomes almost a polar opposite or enemy to Bloodraven. This seems to be set up on the Shade of the Evening vs the Weirwood (paste), which are both linked to visions, but perhaps in a different way. This might turn out to be very far from correct, but it's still my running theory. So, I think currently in Bran, there is a tug of war between sides, although he doesn't realize it. I think we are seeing in Euron the monster that Bran has the potential to become. This might also be happening with Dany, the tug of war within!

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Yeah, I never thought Bloodraven is 3EC but Euron's blue, black and red eyes strongly ties him to 3EC, dude is called Crow's Eye. 

An idea about Maelys the Monstrous, he is the only Targaryen/Blackfyre with two heads, according to Tyrion, Yezzan has a two headed girl from Mantarys, is it possible Maelys' mother had some connections to Old Valyrians cities like Mantarys/Elyria/Tolos and had a monster gene that was dormant in her but passed down to her children? 

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4 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

Yeah, I never thought Bloodraven is 3EC but Euron's blue, black and red eyes strongly ties him to 3EC, dude is called Crow's Eye. 

An idea about Maelys the Monstrous, he is the only Targaryen/Blackfyre with two heads, according to Tyrion, Yezzan has a two headed girl from Mantarys, is it possible Maelys' mother had some connections to Old Valyrians cities like Mantarys/Elyria/Tolos and had a monster gene that was dormant in her but passed down to her children? 

My gut says Euron, the Others, the 3EC and the Faceless Men are all connected. I think Euron is the pin holding everything together.

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9 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

My gut says Euron, the Others, the 3EC and the Faceless Men are all connected. I think Euron is the pin holding everything together.

There's certainly some kind of a connection. Bran after all is the Crow [his name is the giveaway], while as I've argued Others, or at least some of them, are Starks, but I'd be more inclined to see Euron as peripheral rather than a key player

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6 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

There's certainly some kind of a connection. Bran after all is the Crow [his name is the giveaway], while as I've argued Others, or at least some of them, are Starks, but I'd be more inclined to see Euron as peripheral rather than a key player

I should say I don’t necessarily think he is a main player for him to be the connection between those things.

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On 5/24/2019 at 2:06 AM, Black Crow said:

Not so curious given that "Aegon/Jon" offed her in the end, but otherwise a fair comment

I would agree with you if, in the books, Aegon had killed Dany.

"Aha," I would say.  "That's what Jon does on the show.  So in that sense, they did give Jon Aegon's role."

However, as you know, Aegon never has killed her in the books, and I have no reason to think he will.

This is why for me, it seems simplest to imagine this: "They just deleted Aegon's entire storyline from the show.  And they also decided R+L=J... and then they gave Jon some things to do as a result that involve Dany, like sleeping with her."

And while it's true he did kill her in the end, he had no desire to do it.  He'd asked her, just moments before, a question -- "Who gets to decide if the world is good?" -- and if she'd given a more egalitarian answer, he probably would not have killed her at all.  He was hoping she wouldn't be power-crazy, but unfortunately, she was.

But as with everything else, we'll just have to wait and see... if we ever do. 

I'm glad the worldwide negative reaction to season eight has apparently dragged GRRM into making a public prediction about getting TWOW out the door, but I'm still not at all sure he's suddenly going to become efficient enough with his wordcount to wrap the series in only two more books.  And if he doesn't, all these discussions are probably academic.

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2 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

My gut says Euron, the Others, the 3EC and the Faceless Men are all connected. I think Euron is the pin holding everything together.

True! Also my SLJ loving self just discovered Monster/Aemon parallel Jon/Aegon - one northern child born of incest and one prince born to a musician king! and a wise woman that knows about prophecies, Dalla is Elia not attractive but a true queen since she is wise, Val is Ashara the attractive sister that could be stolen by the king but wasn't, she also has a paramour and was chosen to be lady of Winterfell. They are all connections though nothing is a the same. 

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IMO not many readers give Euron enough credit. He is Bloodraven's inverted parallel, so he should be pretty powerful, but I have to admit I'm confused with the Greyjoy parallels to both the Blackfyres and Aegon and his sisters. The Blackfyres were never successful in overthrowing the Targaryen throne, so if the wheel of time is undoing everything, logic would dictate that the "Blackfyres" (read Greyjoys) would be successful this time when they invade. At least I'm expecting them to invade after they steal a dragon or two. However the Greyjoys are not just mirroring the Blackfyres - they are mirroring Aegon the Conqueror as well, so I'm conflicted as to whether or not they will succeed. The Blackfyres failed while Aegon and his sisters succeeded, so if the Greyjoys are repeating both of their stories, which will it be? Neither Euron or Victarion is currently married like Aegon was, so perhaps they will come to Westeros with a dragon or two, but fail, because there was only one rider?

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2 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

Also my SLJ loving self just discovered Monster/Aemon parallel Jon/Aegon - one northern child born of incest and one prince born to a musician king! and a wise woman that knows about prophecies, Dalla is Elia not attractive but a true queen since she is wise, Val is Ashara the attractive sister that could be stolen by the king but wasn't, she also has a paramour and was chosen to be lady of Winterfell.

These are great parallel's.

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

IMO not many readers give Euron enough credit. He is Bloodraven's inverted parallel, so he should be pretty powerful, but I have to admit I'm confused with the Greyjoy parallels to both the Blackfyres and Aegon and his sisters. The Blackfyres were never successful in overthrowing the Targaryen throne, so if the wheel of time is undoing everything, logic would dictate that the "Blackfyres" (read Greyjoys) would be successful this time when they invade. At least I'm expecting them to invade after they steal a dragon or two. However the Greyjoys are not just mirroring the Blackfyres - they are mirroring Aegon the Conqueror as well, so I'm conflicted as to whether or not they will succeed. The Blackfyres failed while Aegon and his sisters succeeded, so if the Greyjoys are repeating both of their stories, which will it be? Neither Euron or Victarion is currently married like Aegon was, so perhaps they will come to Westeros with a dragon or two, but fail, because there was only one rider?

I agree that Euron is very powerful, and I think he is very important to the endgame. And I do think he is at at opposite position as Bloodraven. But was it always like this? As to the inversions you are looking at, I can see the Targaryen/Greyjoy inversion, it makes sense physically, and it's even an inversion of their sigils, a beast of the air and a beast of the water, but I am not sure I understand where the Greyjoy/Blackfyre inversion you are talking about comes from. The Blackfyre's and Tagaryen's are inversions of themselves, or that is how I see it, and the Blackfyres are really Targaryen's, only with a different name!

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, St Daga said:

These are great parallel's.

I agree that Euron is very powerful, and I think he is very important to the endgame. And I do think he is at at opposite position as Bloodraven. But was it always like this? As to the inversions you are looking at, I can see the Targaryen/Greyjoy inversion, it makes sense physically, and it's even an inversion of their sigils, a beast of the air and a beast of the water, but I am not sure I understand where the Greyjoy/Blackfyre inversion you are talking about comes from. The Blackfyre's and Tagaryen's are inversions of themselves, or that is how I see it, and the Blackfyres are really Targaryen's, only with a different name!

When Victorian invaded and conquered the Shield islands per Euron’s orders, it was a mirrored parallel of Bittersteel’s landing on Massey’s Hook during the fourth Blackfyre Rebellion on behalf of Daemon Blackfyre. 

Aegor (Bittersteel) Rivers and the Lord Reaper of Pyke Torwyn Greyjoy swore a blood oath, but Torwyn ended up betraying Aegor to his enemies during one of the Blackfyre Rebellions. Traditionally a blood oath involves the participants to shed their own blood and offer it to each other and swear to uphold some task, no matter what. Oft times the people involved would cut their hands and then shake in agreement. Victarion’s hand injury by Ser Talbert suggests that he is mirroring Bittersteel, while Ser Talbert is Torwyn Greyjoy.

Bittersteel and Bloodraven fought over Shiera, and Victorian killed his own wife, because Euron got her pregnant.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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