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Black Crow

Heresy 222 vindication

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Posted (edited)

Welcome to Heresy 222, the latest iteration or the long-running thread which takes something of a sideways look at the Song of Ice and Fire as distinct from the Game of Thrones - and yes there is a difference. While the Mummers' version has obviously diverged in a big way from the book, certain outcomes have been revealed, which have been very encouraging and justifying our independent stance.

By way of taking a break from the furore, here's a guest OP by Jova Snow:

 

I started searching asoiaf deities while writing about Gemstone Emperors of Dawn, I identified Lion of Night, Maiden Made of Light and God on Earth with gemstones too and realized MMoL is tied to various deities like Lady of Spears, Pale Moon Maiden, Weeping Lady of Lys etc. And her ties with the Faith was obvious too, with these clues I began to build the Trinity of Asoiaf. 

Lion of Night - he is a lion headed deity worshipped by the wealthy, he is tied to House Craster and the Rock, he is the father  of GoD and causes the Long Night after MMoL turns her back to planetos. He is Father and Stranger of the Faith, first head of the Trios, the destructive force. 

Maiden Made of Light - She is referred as Maiden, but she is also the mother of GoD, unlike the Crone who is said to light the path of humans, MMoL hides her light from the planetos causing a dark, cold, age. She is the second head of Trios, most says they don't know what's the second head for, I think this is due to MMoL being passive, Loan started the Other's attack and GoD ended it, but MMoL isn't part of the neither side. 

God on Earth - he is the Warrior and the Smith, he is the who made Lightbringer and the one who used it against the Others. He is the third head of Trios and symbolizes rebirth, a new era for the humanity. 

Although the Faith seems like the most anti magic religion they are actually a corrupted version of this Trinity, and they are the only known religion with a holy book in the series, although we are told the book contains prayers and hymns, in our world holy books also contains laws and historical content about important eras. Then I started to notice other similarities between deities and important figures of asoiaf. 

Bakkalon the Pale Child - an infant holding a sword, I know this is an Easter egg about GRRMs other novels but in our story we have infant sons of Craster given to the Others, we have no information what happens to them but maybe Bakkalon is  clue about their fate. 

Semosh and Selloso - they are brother deities of Essos, there isn't much information about them but I think they are connected to House Tarly's founders. 

Aquan the Red Bull - another Essosi deity, Aquan seems to be similar to Bors the Breaker, who drank bull blood and grow horns. Essosi sacrifice bulls to his idols. 

Back to Seven Pointed Star, God I am a mess an super excited too, I think it is possible to have a certain timeline when it comes to history of planetos, if I use Qur'an as a real life parallel I would say Seven Pointed Star contains

• An account of creation of Men and Woman - the only creation myth we have is from Dothraki > Adam and Eve

• An account of Long Night, a catastrophic event that effected whole planet > Noah and Flood

• An account of post Long Night and civilizations that followed the event > Iram of Pillars and Thamud *

• An account of Andal migration to Westeros > Abraham and Lot

• And lastly a Messiah and information about end times and hell/heaven

* Iram of Pillars was known for their reaches and fertile lands, they were the first civilization to form after Noah's flood they were destroyed by  sand strom and currently lies beneath the dunes of Rub al Khali 

* Thamud is a ruined city just south of Rub Al Khali according to Qur'an they were found after destruction of Iram, they built their cities by carving mountains but was destroyed by an earthquake, a new city called Thamud was founded just south of it's namesakes ruins, it's located in Yemen. 

Jova Snow

Edited by Black Crow

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Well done Jova!  Some of this is very new to me.  You have spent some time thinking on the Essosi gods and I'm not so familiar with them.  I have wondered about Trios for a long time now, so I welcome this discussion.  I'll have to do some text searches and look at the World Book before I comment again.  Thank you for the OP!

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44 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

An account of Long Night, a catastrophic event that effected whole planet > Noah and Flood

This particular comparison has famously been suggested by GRRM himself, in fact.

Quote

 

If time is permiting would you mind giving a brief description on how the wall was constructed?

Much of those details are lost in the mists of time and legend. No one can even say for certain if Brandon the Builder ever lived. He is as remote from the time of the novels as Noah and Gilgamesh are from our own time.

But one thing I will say, for what it's worth -- more than ice went into the raising of the Wall. Remember, these are fantasy novels.

 

The second part of GRRM's response, btw, seems to me to hint heavily at the concept that it has a magical ward, and that is what prevents Coldhands and other wights from passing the Wall.

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49 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

While the Mummers' version has obviously diverged in a big way from the book, certain outcomes have been revealed, which have been very encouraging and justifying our independent stance.

Which outcomes would you say have been revealed?

I think our independent stance has been encouraged all along by the huge variations we've seen across the two projects... not to mention GRRM's many statements since 2011, almost all somehow forgotten by the fans, that differences between them would get bigger and bigger and bigger over time.

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:blush: You're welcome @LynnS and thank you @Black Crow for this thread! Hope it will be a thought provoking one. 

Interesting tidbit about Noah's flood from the Qur'an - according to Qur'anic narrative the flood was signaled by volcanic eruptions and that's how Noah knew when to abroad the Ark. Maybe Doom of Valyria can be a Noah-esque story too, and Qur'an says people of Iram were made stronger than people of Noah yet they perished as well. 

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2 minutes ago, Direwolf Blitzer said:

I wonder if the Wall is susceptible to whatever magical business is hatching dragons and lighting the glass candles.

...among other things.  Outstandingly good question.

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I think the show revealed Bloodraven is actually playing a game of thrones and doesn't care about Others unlike Three Eyed Crow who showed what lays in the lands of Always Winter. We should also prepare our selves for Daenerys/Nissa Nissa moment, Iron Throne melting - but I think 7K will still exists with a new capital in Riverlands, North gaining semi-independence like Dorne. RLJ being something revealed to us yet remain hidden. 

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1 hour ago, JNR said:

Which outcomes would you say have been revealed?

I think our independent stance has been encouraged all along by the huge variations we've seen across the two projects... not to mention GRRM's many statements since 2011, almost all somehow forgotten by the fans, that differences between them would get bigger and bigger and bigger over time.

As I said in the previous thread; we know who lives and who dies at the very end and we know that R+L=J [whether true or not] doesn't matter and certainly isn't the "central mystery"

We also know that this is the Song of Ice and Fire, and about the Children of Winterfell - not about the Targaryens and the Iron Throne

What this terrible knowledge means of course is that we miserable heretics can carry on discussing the magic and everything else.

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Talking about Faith of the Seven. From Tyrion get two passages of The seven pointed star that seem to be part of the Andal creation myth. This is the first one

Quote

 The Maid brought him forth a girl as supple as a willow with eyes like deep blue pools and Hugor declared that he would have her for his bride. So the Mother made her fertile, and the Crone foretold that she would bear the king four-and-forty mighty sons. The Warrior gave strength to their arms, whilst the Smith wrought for each a suit of iron plates

The girl provided by the Maid matches the description of Tyene Sand whose eyes are also deep blue pools and is described as otherworldy

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Her hair was gold as well, and her eyes were deep blue pools . . . and yet somehow they reminded the captain of her father's eyes, though Oberyn's had been as black as night.

  

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Lady Tyene's voice was gentle, and she looked as sweet as summer strawberries. Her mother had been a septa, and Tyene had an air of almost otherworldy innocence about her

Somehow related: Tyrion takes the name Hugor Hill when he is aboard the Shy Maid

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5 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

As I said in the previous thread; we know who lives and who dies at the very end and we know that R+L=J [whether true or not] doesn't matter and certainly isn't the "central mystery"

We also know that this is the Song of Ice and Fire, and about the Children of Winterfell - not about the Targaryens and the Iron Throne

What this terrible knowledge means of course is that we miserable heretics can carry on discussing the magic and everything else.

I disagree.   Who lives and dies easily could change and I felt we got a happily ever after from D&D not the bittersweet ending GRRM promised.   

Jon's Targaryen parentage did end up being very important, but possibly in ways that didn't D&D didn't anticipate.   Suppose Bran didn't use all his time when he should have been preparing for the Night King talking about Rheagar.   Suppose he even told Sam never to talk about it.   Varys likely never dies and Jon doesn't have nearly as compelling a reason to kill Dany.   Maybe Varys still tries to kill Dany and maybe he succeeds, otherwise Dany keeps the throne.  Jon never rejoins the Night's Watch.  Bran never becomes King.  I doubt D&D considered it, but the whole thing could have been a plot by Bran to become King. 

The show completely missed the Azor Ahai / Prince who was Promised.   It isn't Arya.   The books refer to a Targaryen descendant, and if that's Jon, being Rhaegar's son is very important.  It still could be Dany.

I hate going back to J=R+L, Jova Snow's topic is more interesting. 

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21 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

The show completely missed the Azor Ahai / Prince who was Promised.   It isn't Arya.   The books refer to a Targaryen descendant, and if that's Jon, being Rhaegar's son is very important.  It still could be Dany.

Or Aegon. Or the dragon Viseryon/Rhaego in a more open interpretation.

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58 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

we know who lives and who dies at the very end and we know that R+L=J [whether true or not] doesn't matter and certainly isn't the "central mystery"

Hmmm... while I'm certainly no fan of R+L=J, I don't think we know any of that.

Here's what I know, concerning the show vs. the books:

• The show creators constantly changed things -- all kinds of things -- to suit their own interests

• The things they changed absolutely did include character deaths (numerous examples)

• In the show, R+L=J did turn out to be true and did matter quite a bit (without it, Dany probably would have survived)

• GRRM confirmed D&D knew Jon's mother, but has never once said a peep about D&D knowing his parents

• GRRM also told them something about Hodor, something about Shireen, and something that turns up at "the very end" of the show

That's really it.  It adds up to almost nothing about future books IMO per se, because Book World is simply not Show World.

All the same, Heresy has always stood for keeping an open mind and not jumping to premature conclusions -- not feeling obligated to believe whatever other book fans believe. 

It still should stand for all that.  And in the end, that is going to prove the better approach, because as Parris McBride so accurately observed:

Quote

George doesn't do obvious.

 

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Posted (edited)

I won't claim to be *one of you* but I have lurked along with this thread- - for years.

Please feel free to correct me if I've missed something. Again, I don't really agree with y'all on everything so if I'm off base, please elaborate on why (Because this encyclopedia of a thread can be kind of overwhelming and my lurking was more curiosity than agreement.) And pardons in advance if this has been discussed at length. I'll fill out a visitor card if this particular church does such things, though.

But I actually think the biggest coup for the Heretics was in "Fire and Blood" and the account of Good Queen Alysanne at the wall. Namely, that her dragon willfully refused her attempts to cross over the wall. Even in the somewhat dry FaB, that entire passage was incredibly eerie. Alysanne says she tried to get her dragon Silverwing to go north of the wall three different times and that Silverwing's manner and refusal were both VERY out of character. Silverwing had known Alysanne for 22 years when they reached the wall and had been ridden by her for 10. Those 10 years were pretty full of travel so it is safe to say they had a good relationship.

Yet Alysanne was taken aback by her dragon's vehement refusal to go north of the wall. During the three attempts, Silverwing's behavior was startling even to Alysanne. It is noted that,  "[T]hough it was summer and the Wall was weeping, the chill of the ice could still be felt whenever the wind blew, and every gust would make the dragon hiss and snap." Alysanne describes the experience first hand: "Thrice I flew Silverwing high above Castle Black, and thrice I tried to take her north beyond the Wall but every time she veered back south again and refused to go. Never before has she refused to take me where I wished to go. I laughed about it when I came down . . . . but it troubled me then and it troubles me still." (Fire and Blood, p 264)

I think this is pretty interesting. First of all, this event happened JUST at the wall. It is noted that it was summer and the Wall was weeping. And while it is acknowledged to be cold generally, that doesn't seem to be the issue unless the Wall is important as a boundary because either a) of inherent magical qualities in the wall that makes it like a sort of dragon/magic repellent of itself or b) some sort of magic kicks in when the lands beyond the Wall can be seen or when the Wall is crossed. It seems HIGHLY unlikely that it was simply the matter of however many degrees colder it would've been 2 miles North. We also have the dragon trying to attack the cold ("hiss and snap" at the gusts of icy cold wind) despite being on a tour of the North (having previously stopped at Winterfell and then the Last Hearth before Castle Black). Yet, there is no evidence to suggest that there is a major climate difference betweeen Last Hearth

So why the visceral response from the dragon? Why the absolute refusal to go where Alysanne- a magically insensitive human- told it to? And why was Alysanne so troubled by it, troubled so much, in fact, that it troubled her long after giving an account of the event. We know that dragon riders and dragons have a certain sort of connection that seems to be based on imprinting (Silverwing was placed as an egg in Alysanne's cradle where it presumably also hatched). The importance of this is that Alysanne is able to voice her concerns whereas Silverwing merely wanted to avoid/attack the biting cold. 

The key factor is obviously the wall. "Cold" is obviously not the most logical reason for Silverwing's reluctance as he had flown from Last Hearth and we have no reason to think it is THAT much colder at the Wall than the Last Hearth. Barring the supernatural, it would be negligibly colder a mile north of the wall than 200 feet south of it. 

To me, this shows that the wall is inherently a magical thing, but we knew that. My understanding of the concept of Heresy is that one good starting place is that the wall wasn't built to keep out WWs. Here, we have a magically driven beast representing the elemental opposite of the Others, an apex predator that has traveled across Westeros and likely fears nothing. And yet there is a compulsive and overpowering urge by the dragon to not cross the wall. Upon arrival at Castle Black (the structure of the passage suggests upon arrival at least at some point before trying to fly over it), Alysanne notes that "[Silverwing] does not like this Wall"

This harkens back to a the OG, 1st Heresy thread where the inimitable @Black Crow speculated who speculated that he was "thinking of Fire, dragons and Azor Ahai" as cause for the construction of the wall.

So where does this take us? There isn't much evidence that dragons were such a problem when the Wall was raised that it caused its construction. More likely, the magic of the wall isn't directed towards dragons but certain type of elemental forces (such as those mentioned in Black Crow's quote above). It is immaterial if the wall was made to prevent dragons if dragons are a type of magical or elemental force that it was precisely designed to blocked.

But why there, all the way up North. Is it keeping elements apart (AHA!) or is it something else? I very much like the concept of the wall being not to prevent ice from passing, but to prevent ice and fire from meeting. For that goal, the location would be perfect.

Here is a tiny seedling of a theory. It would also be a great location if the wall was actually literally covering something. I haven't fully worked out the kinks of this one, but given the Stark-Wall connection, perhaps it is a similarly powerful source of magic that caused the dragon to recognize its equal and antithesis (or, if not antithesis, that some latent power lurked in the wall.) A lot of the stories of the North, of the Starks (possible Winterfell connection here somewhere) and of the Wall make sense of the Wall wasn't actually guarding anything, but was itself being guarded.

The Stark in Winterfell and the men of the night's watch remaining true is obviously important, if only for reasons of lore. But what if an agreement was made to essentially guard a grenade as a sign of the good faith of men towards older creatures (like CoTF + WWs) as a way to bind men to peace after taxing wars. The failure of men to uphold their ancient vows (to not kill CoTF, for example) would lead to the magic residing in the wall or the power held within to break free and consume men through an evil of their own making.

(The following is more speculation and stream of consciousness than the preceding bits which I'm sure are still pretty raw)

The Wall weeping has always been a weird thing that has been noted again and again and again. It could be some sort of barometer for the honor of men or it could be a strong force of magic that isn't fully containable. We know the Wall weeps and that the Wall "defends itself", but perhaps those are more than simple rhetoric but the "telephone game" effect caused by the passage of thousands of years.

It also makes a bit more sense to me why certain entities would agree and be satisfied with being sequestered in perhaps the least enviable part of Planetos. The agreement was made in recognition of a lasting peace. Creatures north of the Wall simultaneously have a group there defending the border but forced into the agreement that that border could turn explosive if they break their agreement. If such power was unleashed due to the night watch not staying true...to the agreement of peace, then those men and the Starks would be punished most strongly. Hence why such statements like "must always be a stark at winterfell" and "as long as the men of the watch remain true" have carried throughout literal millennia. Just a thought prompted by the "Vindication" title.

Edited by Demetri
format was wonky

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Posted (edited)

F&B provides an additional bit of information about the dragon's reactions in the North. When Alysanne visited Winterfell during a summer, her dragon had no problem during their stay. When Jacaerys went with Vermax seeking Cregan's assistance during an Autumn the dragon was ill tempered:

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Autumn was well advanced when the Prince of Dragonstone came to Winterfell. The snows lay deep upon the ground, a cold wind was howling from the north, and Lord Stark was in the midst of his preparations for the coming winter, yet he gave Jacaerys a warm welcome. Snow and ice and cold made Vermax ill-tempered, it is said, so the prince did not linger long amongst the northmen.

So whatever affected Silverwing at the Wall may have been active in Winterfell when the cold winds disturbed Vermax

Edited by Tucu

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29 minutes ago, Tucu said:

F&B provides an additional bit of information about the dragon's reactions in the North. When Alysanne visited Winterfell during a summer, her dragon had no problem during their stay. When Jacaerys went with Vermax seeking Cregan's assistance during an Autumn the dragon was ill tempered:

So whatever affected Silverwing at the Wall may have been active in Winterfell when the cold winds disturbed Vermax

Do you by any chance have page numbers handy? I'd love to take a look at those sections.

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8 minutes ago, Demetri said:

Do you by any chance have page numbers handy? I'd love to take a look at those sections.

I got the Kindle version, so no page numbers. Check 6 or 7 pages into the A son for a son chapter (part of the Dying of the Dragons section)

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2 hours ago, Demetri said:

I won't claim to be *one of you* but I have lurked along with this thread- - for years.

Welcome aboard.  You seem, from your post, like one of us to me.

2 hours ago, Demetri said:

To me, this shows that the wall is inherently a magical thing, but we knew that.

Some of us have argued it, actually, but I agree.  I think it's plain there's a magical ward in the Wall, of a sort.

(And if we're being a bit more literal, there's also some sort of structural magic, or the Wall would have imploded into a giant mound millennia ago.)

2 hours ago, Demetri said:

Here, we have a magically driven beast representing the elemental opposite of the Others, an apex predator that has traveled across Westeros and likely fears nothing. And yet there is a compulsive and overpowering urge by the dragon to not cross the wall.

Sure seems like it, doesn't it?  I interpret this just as you do:

2 hours ago, Demetri said:

More likely, the magic of the wall isn't directed towards dragons but certain type of elemental forces

And having recognized that, we can go on to speculate about the principles involved... and perhaps reach interesting conclusions when we do, and then go on to make predictions.

However, you should know that in accordance with the ancient law of Heretics Never Agree, some in the thread probably do believe it's directed toward dragons.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, JNR said:

Welcome aboard.  You seem, from your post, like one of us to me. However, you should know that in accordance with the ancient law of Heretics Never Agree, some in the thread probably do believe it's directed toward dragons.

Thank you for the warm welcome! I am totally okay with dissent. I LOVE logical discussions and I've rarely seen a thread be so incendiary in substance and yet so cordial during discourse.

So while I eagerly await dissent, I'm a tad worried that anything I discuss will have been discussed 20 times over by you guys. I know that my post was probably fairly simplistic by y'all's standards, but I thought I'd throw it out there and undergo whatever form of baptism exists around here. Either way, thanks for reading and commenting.

Edited by Demetri

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2 hours ago, Demetri said:

Thank you for the warm welcome! I am totally okay with dissent. I LOVE logical discussions and I've rarely seen a thread be so incendiary in substance and yet so cordial during discourse.

So while I eagerly await dissent, I'm a tad worried that anything I discuss will have been discussed 20 times over by you guys. I know that my post was probably fairly simplistic by y'all's standards, but I thought I'd throw it out there and undergo whatever form of baptism exists around here. Either way, thanks for reading and commenting.

 

Thanks for the compliment on the thread :commie:

You'll fit in just fine and don't worry about raising anything that's discussed before - we do it all the time and anyway on a thread this long, there's a healthy turnover in participants so rediscovering topics is part of the game

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