Heresy 222 vindication

[MaesterSam]

20 hours ago, redriver said:

The theory fits with what we know about Euron,in the novels and the sample chapters from TWOW.He hasn't got a scrap of magical ability in his body,but he recognizes the power of sorcery and thinks he knows the ingredients to make it happen.

 

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I beg to differ. We know through Theon's POV that the ironborn may well have magical gifts. While in Winterfell, Theon dreamed of the Stark dead feasting in the Great Hall, and then Robb and Grey Wind enter, bleeding from a dozen wounds, to join the other dead. This was notably before the Red Wedding. If that's not a green dream I don't know what is. 

In addition, Theon thus far in the story is the only person who can hear/understand Bran through the weirwood. 

The ironborn have an origin story of a king that ruled for centuries, like the other Great Houses. There is some evidence that the Iron Islands were much more powerful and bigger before being flooded at some point- possibly following the Hammer of the Waters, which also drowned their god (greenseer). 

Oh and Asha has a prophetic dream about a stag with a burning heart in the forest, shortly before being attacked by Stannis. 

Not to mention Euron's own "flying dream", which sounds similar to what Bran and Dany experienced in the first book. IMO he is likely quite talented, but unfortunately these talents will not be used for good.

4 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Even so, despite the surge of "Fisher King Bran" posts, I understand the skepticism; while putting him on the throne isn't impossible - he's set to become the most magically powerful character, he's technically the rightful King of the North (ergo, could already be a recognized monarch), and elective monarchy already has potential through the Great Council system -, putting him on the throne in a way that feels credible and satisfying to the reader still feels out of reach to me, especially with only two books left.

Even if it were portrayed as some kind of roundabout victory for the old god/3EC/whatever, I'm just not seeing it as a potential development that I would like--though I don't consider that an argument against King Bran, as disappointment is always an option.

I have posted this elsewhere before in more detail, but I'll just mention that the first clear bit of foreshadowing for this ending has already occurred, in the Euron chapter from TWOW. In it, Euron tells Aeron 

Quote

"The bleeding star bespoke the end," he said to Aeron. "These are the last days, when the world shall be broken and remade. A new god shall be born from the graves and charnel pits."

This always just sounded like a cool ominous prediction... until I looked up the meaning of charnel pit. A charnel house, or simply charnel, is a place where bones are stored. Not like a crypt, but a storage place, with thousands of bones either neatly stacked along the walls or sometimes piled in heaps or mounds. They are no longer arranged as skeletons - just bones. The skulls may be stacked separately, or piled up. 

Sound familiar? Out of all the characters we know, there are really only two that could be "born" from such a place. And Bran is more likely than Arya, because Arya is being trained to serve while Bran is being trained to be a greenseer, aka an Old God. 

Long story short, I predict that Bran will not so much be the king of Westeros, as a god-like figure that is worshipped by the remaining survivors. I obviously don't know the details of how GRRM gets us to this place, but we know from history that ALL MEN in Westeros have discarded their gods and taken up worship of the trees once before. This agreement was called the Pact, and there are those who link it to the Last Hero (who traveled to the far North and learned from the COTF... ) and his saving of mankind from the Others. If that's all it takes, Bran is already halfway there. 

 

4 hours ago, St Daga said:

So, you pulled some interesting quotes. Reading them just now:

"She ran a hand across her stubbly scalp where her hair had burned away, and felt more ants on her head, and one crawling down the back of her neck."

I had to wonder, "are there really ants"? It's all real from Dany's POV, but what if the ants are part of her imagination?

This idea that fire has transformed her, yet again is interesting. We also get this:

"That made her so sad that she would have cried if all her tears had not been burned away."

Tears are a sign of sorrow and sadness, of gentleness, of regret, but here, Dany tells us her tears have burned away. Does that mean she perhaps is less capable of those emotions than she once was?

And here we get a nice look at the concept of bells meaning something to her, something that Book Dany wore and embraced as part of Dothraki custom, bells signalling the defeat of an enemy. This is something the show really failed to deliver on! I can totally see how GRRM might have told them that bells are important to Dany's endgame, but they delivered some slop that really makes no sense.

The character that is truly scarred by a memory of bells is Jon Con. He reflects on the Battle of the Bells often, and at one point thinks how he failed Rhaegar and that Tywin would have burned the entire city to the ground and then looked for Robert's bones later on. This is by far his biggest regret, and I wouldn't be surprised if it were to be him, as Aegon's Hand, to burn KL (or another city) after the bells sounded the surrender. After all, we don't know how the show merged Aegon into the other characters. We've been assuming part of his arc was given to Jon, but why not Dany? 

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, MaesterSam said:

I beg to differ. We know through Theon's POV that the ironborn may well have magical gifts. While in Winterfell, Theon dreamed of the Stark dead feasting in the Great Hall, and then Robb and Grey Wind enter, bleeding from a dozen wounds, to join the other dead. This was notably before the Red Wedding. If that's not a green dream I don't know what is.

The argument is well put.  It's easy to forget over such a long hiatus.  It's possible that Euron was tested as a potential greenseer and there must be a reason.  We know skinchangers represent a small percentage of the population and of those, only a few can be greenseers.   I've considered that he was rejected because he invaded his brothers.  I'm not sure that what Victarion recalls of the screaming hinge was rape in the conventional sense but rather a body snatching.  

[Lady Rhodes]

10 hours ago, MaesterSam said:

I beg to differ. We know through Theon's POV that the ironborn may well have magical gifts. While in Winterfell, Theon dreamed of the Stark dead feasting in the Great Hall, and then Robb and Grey Wind enter, bleeding from a dozen wounds, to join the other dead. This was notably before the Red Wedding. If that's not a green dream I don't know what is. 

In addition, Theon thus far in the story is the only person who can hear/understand Bran through the weirwood. 

The ironborn have an origin story of a king that ruled for centuries, like the other Great Houses. There is some evidence that the Iron Islands were much more powerful and bigger before being flooded at some point- possibly following the Hammer of the Waters, which also drowned their god (greenseer). 

Oh and Asha has a prophetic dream about a stag with a burning heart in the forest, shortly before being attacked by Stannis. 

Not to mention Euron's own "flying dream", which sounds similar to what Bran and Dany experienced in the first book. IMO he is likely quite talented, but unfortunately these talents will not be used for good.

I have posted this elsewhere before in more detail, but I'll just mention that the first clear bit of foreshadowing for this ending has already occurred, in the Euron chapter from TWOW. In it, Euron tells Aeron 

This always just sounded like a cool ominous prediction... until I looked up the meaning of charnel pit. A charnel house, or simply charnel, is a place where bones are stored. Not like a crypt, but a storage place, with thousands of bones either neatly stacked along the walls or sometimes piled in heaps or mounds. They are no longer arranged as skeletons - just bones. The skulls may be stacked separately, or piled up. 

Sound familiar? Out of all the characters we know, there are really only two that could be "born" from such a place. And Bran is more likely than Arya, because Arya is being trained to serve while Bran is being trained to be a greenseer, aka an Old God. 

Long story short, I predict that Bran will not so much be the king of Westeros, as a god-like figure that is worshipped by the remaining survivors. I obviously don't know the details of how GRRM gets us to this place, but we know from history that ALL MEN in Westeros have discarded their gods and taken up worship of the trees once before. This agreement was called the Pact, and there are those who link it to the Last Hero (who traveled to the far North and learned from the COTF... ) and his saving of mankind from the Others. If that's all it takes, Bran is already halfway there. 

 

The character that is truly scarred by a memory of bells is Jon Con. He reflects on the Battle of the Bells often, and at one point thinks how he failed Rhaegar and that Tywin would have burned the entire city to the ground and then looked for Robert's bones later on. This is by far his biggest regret, and I wouldn't be surprised if it were to be him, as Aegon's Hand, to burn KL (or another city) after the bells sounded the surrender. After all, we don't know how the show merged Aegon into the other characters. We've been assuming part of his arc was given to Jon, but why not Dany? 

The section you have here regarding Jon Con and the Bells is very interesting. I mentioned elsewhere that I thought the burning of KingsLanding was more likely to occur against Arianne and Aegon rather than Cersei. I hadn’t even connected it to Jon Con’s Battle of the Bells PTSD! 

[Black Crow]

11 hours ago, MaesterSam said:

 

Long story short, I predict that Bran will not so much be the king of Westeros, as a god-like figure that is worshipped by the remaining survivors. I obviously don't know the details of how GRRM gets us to this place, but we know from history that ALL MEN in Westeros have discarded their gods and taken up worship of the trees once before. This agreement was called the Pact, and there are those who link it to the Last Hero (who traveled to the far North and learned from the COTF... ) and his saving of mankind from the Others. If that's all it takes, Bran is already halfway there. 

 

 

Yes, as suggested up-thread the over-arching problem with the Mummers Farce is that GRRM revealed the endings for some of the character arcs but not how they came about. In this case I agree with your assessment, which is also consistent with the story of Bran the Blessed in the Mabinogion.

[Melifeather]

8 hours ago, LynnS said:

The argument is well put.  It's easy to forget over such a long hiatus.  It's possible that Euron was tested as a potential greenseer and there must be a reason.  We know skinchangers represent a small percentage of the population and of those, only a few can be greenseers.   I've considered that he was rejected because he invaded his brothers.  I'm not sure that what Victarion recalls of the screaming hinge was rape in the conventional sense but rather a body snatching.  

Keeping the parallels in mind, I think Euron's rape of his two younger brothers (Aeron and Urrigon) are meant to mirror Bran's initiation as a greenseer, and his frequent skinchanging into Hodor.

Bran's initiation was gentle persuasion, but while his attention was focused on how they were making him comfortable, they were giving him to the weirwoods. It makes me think of how a pimp or madam hooks a new prostitute. In the beginning the target is fed and clothed and fussed over, but sooner or later they will be a sex slave. The paste he ate may have actually killed him. He might be an undead creature attached to the roots, seeing the past, present, and future while the weirwood slowly consumes him. 

You could liken Bran's skinchanging of Hodor like a rape. He didn't ask or wait for Hodor's permission. He just took him while Hodor cowered deep in a corner of his mind. 

Euron came to Urri and Aeron at night after he had too much to drink, and he'd choose one of his younger brothers. It's implied that he raped them, but maybe he forced himself into their minds like Bran did to Hodor - a rape of the mind.

[St Daga]

13 hours ago, MaesterSam said:

I beg to differ. We know through Theon's POV that the ironborn may well have magical gifts. While in Winterfell, Theon dreamed of the Stark dead feasting in the Great Hall, and then Robb and Grey Wind enter, bleeding from a dozen wounds, to join the other dead. This was notably before the Red Wedding. If that's not a green dream I don't know what is. 

I would agree that Theon does have some type of skinchanging gift. I really used to think he had Stark blood, just based on that Theon Stark "is my namesake business" combined with hints that seem to connect Theon as bonded in some way to his stallion Smiler. Theon has his snapping point at Winterfell just as Smiler burns. I think there is a reason that horse was set on fire (it's an action we will later see with Varamyr and Orell's eagle), using fire or death of a familiar animal to break a bond and incapacitate a skinchanger for a time. After Smiler is in flames, Theon screams and blacks out, and we don't actually see him for several books.

You make good connections for Asha. I have always been interested in her perception when they are in the woods outside of Deepwood Motte. I had not really thought of her dreams, mostly just her waking perceptions. Aeron might owe his allegiance to the Drowned God, but he has visions, by gosh. Not everyone in this world has visions and dreams. 

And Euron is almost certainly magical! Long before the Shade of the Evening! It kind of makes me wonder why Balon kept wanting to be king. Perhaps there is more to his quest than pure greed?

 

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

The argument is well put.  It's easy to forget over such a long hiatus.  It's possible that Euron was tested as a potential greenseer and there must be a reason.  We know skinchangers represent a small percentage of the population and of those, only a few can be greenseers.   I've considered that he was rejected because he invaded his brothers.  I'm not sure that what Victarion recalls of the screaming hinge was rape in the conventional sense but rather a body snatching.  

I agree about the concept of why Aeron is bothered by the hinge. I don't think it was molestation or rape as much as a taking of a body. I think Euron practiced with both Aeron and Urrigon, and this led him down a bad path. I think we see hints of this with Bran and Hodor, too! We never get a Hodor POV, but Bran thinks of Hodor as hiding in a corner of his own mind, which seems pretty sad, but what is this like from Hodor's perspective? Also, upthread we were discussing how Urrathon (Nightwalker) is a name associated with Iron Born, but it is  also very similar to Urrigon, another possible connection to Euron and his mind-control ability. It's possible that he is using the Dusky Woman's mind to spy on Victarion, and mind control makes a lot of sense.

 

13 hours ago, MaesterSam said:

The character that is truly scarred by a memory of bells is Jon Con. He reflects on the Battle of the Bells often, and at one point thinks how he failed Rhaegar and that Tywin would have burned the entire city to the ground and then looked for Robert's bones later on. This is by far his biggest regret, and I wouldn't be surprised if it were to be him, as Aegon's Hand, to burn KL (or another city) after the bells sounded the surrender. After all, we don't know how the show merged Aegon into the other characters. We've been assuming part of his arc was given to Jon, but why not Dany?

This is a great point about JonCon and how he remembers his loss at Stoney Sept, as well as what Tywin would have done differently. THAT does hint at what we saw in the show. If this happens in the books, how does JonCon get in charge of a dragon? Perhaps Aegon has one of Dany's dragons and does the dirty work? But would Aegon be a part of this? More likely if JonCon sets a fire, it's of the man made variety. A little grey scale dementia to help the plot move forward?

 

 

[LynnS]

14 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I agree about the concept of why Aeron is bothered by the hinge. I don't think it was molestation or rape as much as a taking of a body. I think Euron practiced with both Aeron and Urrigon, and this led him down a bad path. I think we see hints of this with Bran and Hodor, too! We never get a Hodor POV, but Bran thinks of Hodor as hiding in a corner of his own mind, which seems pretty sad, but what is this like from Hodor's perspective? Also, upthread we were discussing how Urrathon (Nightwalker) is a name associated with Iron Born, but it is  also very similar to Urrigon, another possible connection to Euron and his mind-control ability. It's possible that he is using the Dusky Woman's mind to spy on Victarion, and mind control makes a lot of sense.

I'm completely on board with the Urragon Nightwalker alias for Euron.  Also recall, that Bran knows that he shouldn't take Hodor's body and that it must be kept a secret.

[St Daga]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Yes, as suggested up-thread the over-arching problem with the Mummers Farce is that GRRM revealed the endings for some of the character arcs but not how they came about. In this case I agree with your assessment, which is also consistent with the story of Bran the Blessed in the Mabinogion.

Many interesting things in the Bran the Blessed tale, perhaps the most interesting to me is that Bran's head lives on much longer than his body, and it speaks and gives advice. Later, it is buried (reportedly at the location of the Tower of London) as a way to keep Britain safe. This connects the ravens imagery of Bran the Blessed to the tower, and we certainly have Bran, ravens and tower imagery connected in ASOIAF. But the head was said to have been dug up by King Arthur who said his own strength could protect Britain, and they didn't need to rely on the head of Bran. Something in this idea of powerful skulls makes me think of Bittersteel, and his skull dipped in gold that is said to travel with the Golden Company, which surprises me a little bit, because it seems like it is Bloodraven, Bittersteel's bro-enemy, who is associated with the ravens in this story.

[MaesterSam]

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

The argument is well put.  It's easy to forget over such a long hiatus.  It's possible that Euron was tested as a potential greenseer and there must be a reason.  We know skinchangers represent a small percentage of the population and of those, only a few can be greenseers.   I've considered that he was rejected because he invaded his brothers.  I'm not sure that what Victarion recalls of the screaming hinge was rape in the conventional sense but rather a body snatching.  

Yes, and the gods mark the greenseers with different eye colors. Euron's "smiling eye" is blue, but his "blood eye" is presumably red (otherwise the name makes no sense, and his new sigil is notably a red eye). So he is clearly marked by the gods - unlike Bran, who  has neither red nor green eyes. 

While I like the idea of Euron taking over his brothers' bodies, Varamyr's experience suggests that taking over a person is extremely difficult to do, even for a powerful and experienced skinchanger. Bran only succeeds because Hodor is mentally disabled. Then again, if Euron started when Aeron and Urri were very young, they similarly couldn't have fought him off.... I'll have to think on this some more. 

[St Daga]

20 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Euron came to Urri and Aeron at night after he had too much to drink, and he'd choose one of his younger brothers. It's implied that he raped them, but maybe he forced himself into their minds like Bran did to Hodor - a rape of the mind.

A hinge is strongly associated in these memories of Aeron, and hinges, as you have pointed out, are strongly associated with magic in this world, so to me, the hinge that Aeron hear's is related to magic more than rusty iron, although Aeron might not fully understand that. So, a rape of the mind, the action of stealing a body, or at least the attempt to, makes a lot of sense for what was going on with Euron and his brothers.

[St Daga]

1 minute ago, MaesterSam said:

While I like the idea of Euron taking over his brothers' bodies, Varamyr's experience suggests that taking over a person is extremely difficult to do, even for a powerful and experienced skinchanger. Bran only succeeds because Hodor is mentally disabled. Then again, if Euron started when Aeron and Urri were very young, they similarly couldn't have fought him off.... I'll have to think on this some more. 

I think the aspect of youth might be important in all of this. Young children would not be able to fight such a possession off, as perhaps an adult would. It's usually easier to train people and animals when they are young. There are hints that something is happening with Sweetrobin in this way, although it seems to take a tole on him. And what about Varys' children? Why children? And why have their tongues cut out, which is a nod to Euron's crew on the Silence!

[St Daga]

5 minutes ago, MaesterSam said:

Yes, and the gods mark the greenseers with different eye colors. Euron's "smiling eye" is blue, but his "blood eye" is presumably red (otherwise the name makes no sense, and his new sigil is notably a red eye). So he is clearly marked by the gods - unlike Bran, who  has neither red nor green eyes. 

Also, why does Euron have a blue eye? The majority of the Greyjoy's we meet have black eyes. I don't think Theon's eye color is ever named, which I find suspicious and have for years felt like they might be grey, but blue eyes don't really fit the Greyjoy's. It does fit the Other's, however. What if Euron is connected to more than one type of power? 

[LynnS]

21 minutes ago, MaesterSam said:

Yes, and the gods mark the greenseers with different eye colors. Euron's "smiling eye" is blue, but his "blood eye" is presumably red (otherwise the name makes no sense, and his new sigil is notably a red eye). So he is clearly marked by the gods - unlike Bran, who  has neither red nor green eyes. 

While I like the idea of Euron taking over his brothers' bodies, Varamyr's experience suggests that taking over a person is extremely difficult to do, even for a powerful and experienced skinchanger. Bran only succeeds because Hodor is mentally disabled. Then again, if Euron started when Aeron and Urri were very young, they similarly couldn't have fought him off.... I'll have to think on this some more. 

The eye he covers with a patch is actually black.  I'm looking for the quote where I think Theon, Aeron or Victarion says that he wants to remove the patch to make sure there is still a black eye beneath it.  His personal sigil as seen by Sam is a black eye with two crows and a crown.  The name Euron Croweye also suggests that the eye is black like a crow.  I've always thought that both his eyes were blue and after the fall, a head injury caused one pupil to permanently dilate; hence the need for a patch.

I'm not sure why he is later called Bloodeye and whether this is given to him because of his bloody nature or because the eye has hoemmorhaged and he now leaves the eye uncovered.

[Lady Rhodes]

17 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Also, why does Euron have a blue eye? The majority of the Greyjoy's we meet have black eyes. I don't think Theon's eye color is ever named, which I find suspicious and have for years felt like they might be grey, but blue eyes don't really fit the Greyjoy's. It does fit the Other's, however. What if Euron is connected to more than one type of power? 

Ooh I had never thought of the blue eye issue! Perhaps Euron sailed very far north...

[Melifeather]

21 minutes ago, St Daga said:

A hinge is strongly associated in these memories of Aeron, and hinges, as you have pointed out, are strongly associated with magic in this world, so to me, the hinge that Aeron hear's is related to magic more than rusty iron, although Aeron might not fully understand that. So, a rape of the mind, the action of stealing a body, or at least the attempt to, makes a lot of sense for what was going on with Euron and his brothers.

I like this very much! I had previously thought that the squeaky iron hinge indicated Euron was at fault for the unraveling of the wards at the Wall, but I've since changed my mind. I think they were already weakening when Bloodraven reset winter during the Year of the False Spring. I shared a text the other day that implied that the event was so violent that it nearly ripped the door off the hinge. This event is what caused magic to leak out of the Wall and brought back white walkers and dragons at the same time, but it also may have awakened Euron's gifts and that is the connection to the squeaky hinge like you have suggested. I do like the raping of the mind much better than sodomizing his younger brothers as the explanation. Not to minimize rape, but Damphair has carried this trauma into adulthood, and seeking refuge in religion seems like a response to an unnatural abomination.

4 minutes ago, LynnS said:

The eye he covers with a patch is actually black.  I'm looking for the quote where I think Theon or Aeron says that he wants to remove the patch to make sure there is still a black eye beneath it.  His personal sigil as seen by Sam is a black eye with two crows and a crown.  The name Euron Croweye also suggests that the eye is black like a crow.  I've always thought that both his eyes were blue and after the fall, a head injury caused one pupil to permanently dilate; hence the need for a patch.

I'm not sure why he is later called Bloodeye and whether this is given to him because of his bloody nature or because the eye has hemmorhaged and he now leaves the eye uncovered.

Yes, black and full of malice, but the whites of his eye might be red.

[St Daga]

5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

The eye he covers with a patch is actually black.  I'm looking for the quote where I think Theon or Aeron says that he wants to remove the patch to make sure there is still a black eye beneath it.  His personal sigil as seen by Sam is a black eye with two crows and a crown.  The name Euron Croweye also suggests that the eye is black like a crow.  I've always thought that both his eyes were blue and after the fall, a head injury caused one pupil to permanently dilate; hence the need for a patch.

I'm not sure why he is later called Bloodeye and whether this is given to him because of his bloody nature or because the eye has hemmorhaged and he now leaves the eye uncovered.

I think this is the passage you are thinking of:

Quote

Crowfood. Theon remembered. An old man, huge and powerful, with a ruddy face and a shaggy white beard. He had been seated on a garron, clad in the pelt of a gigantic snow bear, its head his hood. Under it he wore a stained white leather eye patch that reminded Theon of his uncle Euron. He'd wanted to rip it off Umber's face, to make certain that underneath was only an empty socket, not a black eye shining with malice. Instead he had whimpered through his broken teeth and said, "I am — " TWOW-Theon I

So, Theon is looking at Hothor Umber and seeing his eye patch, he wants to tear it off to see the eye underneath. This hints to Euron's eye being black and shining with malice, since that is who Theon is reminded of when he see's Umber. A black eye makes sense with the Greyjoy's. Now, an eye injury could explain a loss of pigment, but what if Euron always had a blue and black eye? Tyrion has a black and green eye. And Sheira Seastar also had mismatched eyes and was thought to be quite powerful.

[Melifeather]

1 minute ago, St Daga said:

So, Theon is looking at Hothor Umber and seeing his eye patch, he wants to tear it off to see the eye underneath. This hints to Euron's eye being black and shining with malice, since that is who Theon is reminded of when he see's Umber. A black eye makes sense with the Greyjoy's. Now, an eye injury could explain a loss of pigment, but what if Euron always had a blue and black eye? Tyrion has a black and green eye. And Sheira Seastar also had mismatched eyes and was thought to be quite powerful

Hothor Umber wears a patch over an empty eye socket, and Theon wants to rip it off to make sure there's not a black eye shining full of malice, meaning that Euron's hidden eye is black and full of malice, but another thought occurred to me. Perhaps Euron has been known to wear glamours and if there were a black eye under Umber's eye patch, it would mean Hothor isn't Hothor, but Euron.

[St Daga]

1 minute ago, Feather Crystal said:

Yes, black and full of malice, but the whites of his eye might be red.

This does make sense. My Dad had an eye injury a couple years ago, and his globe filled up with blood. So, his blue eye turned purple and all the white was red. It was creepy, no lie! It didn't last more than a week or so, but this would be a good explanation for Euron's blood eye, and it could actually fit the sigil of a red eye and a black pupil. The iris doesn't need to be red, just the sclera! I like it.

[MaesterSam]

33 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I would agree that Theon does have some type of skinchanging gift. I really used to think he had Stark blood, just based on that Theon Stark "is my namesake business" combined with hints that seem to connect Theon as bonded in some way to his stallion Smiler. Theon has his snapping point at Winterfell just as Smiler burns. I think there is a reason that horse was set on fire (it's an action we will later see with Varamyr and Orell's eagle), using fire or death of a familiar animal to break a bond and incapacitate a skinchanger for a time. After Smiler is in flames, Theon screams and blacks out, and we don't actually see him for several books.

If we go back far enough, there probably is some Stark blood in the ironborn and many other Northern families. After all, the "first night" tradition only ended a couple of hundred years ago - up until then, the Kings in the North would have been sowing their seed far and wide. Even if they didn't directly sire ironborn children, they would have many offspring on the shores, for example, where the salt wives were stolen. 

That being said, I don't think you have to have Stark blood in order to bond with a horse. Dany has a special bond with her Silver, for example, and Domeric Bolton was said to ride as well as Lyanna Stark. 

42 minutes ago, St Daga said:

This is a great point about JonCon and how he remembers his loss at Stoney Sept, as well as what Tywin would have done differently. THAT does hint at what we saw in the show. If this happens in the books, how does JonCon get in charge of a dragon? Perhaps Aegon has one of Dany's dragons and does the dirty work? But would Aegon be a part of this? More likely if JonCon sets a fire, it's of the man made variety. A little grey scale dementia to help the plot move forward?

In the Battle of the Bells, Robert is hiding in the city and JonCon has to find him before Ned's host arrives. Finding him would have ended the war. So perhaps a similar scenario? In the course of their invasion, JonCon feels pressured to take a city quickly. Maybe a rival (Dany, Euron, Jon) is also on the way there, and if JonCon takes the city first, he can end the war. Or maybe the parallels are even stronger, and an enemy is hiding in the city. JonCon surrounds the city, and the city sounds the bells in surrender. This triggers his PTSD and he sets everything on fire. With or without a dragon.

Aegon's role in all this is of course unclear. If he is real, he may get a dragon at some point. JonCon could advise him to burn a city rather than risk a lengthy siege and possibly let an enemy escape. We should also keep in mind that Aegon is Aerys's grandson, and may not require much encouragement to burn them all. 

 

[LynnS]

4 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I think this is the passage you are thinking of:

So, Theon is looking at Hothor Umber and seeing his eye patch, he wants to tear it off to see the eye underneath. This hints to Euron's eye being black and shining with malice, since that is who Theon is reminded of when he see's Umber. A black eye makes sense with the Greyjoy's. Now, an eye injury could explain a loss of pigment, but what if Euron always had a blue and black eye? Tyrion has a black and green eye. And Sheira Seastar also had mismatched eyes and was thought to be quite powerful.

That's one I'm looking for alright.  And my mistake, Euron's sigal:
 

Quote

 

A Feast for Crows - Samwell V

"Who would be so mad as to raid this close to Oldtown?"

Xhondo pointed at a half-sunken longship in the shallows. The remnants of a banner drooped from her stern, smoke-stained and ragged. The charge was one Sam had never seen before: a red eye with a black pupil, beneath a black iron crown supported by two crows. "Whose banner is that?" Sam asked. Xhondo only shrugged.

 

Again, I'm not sure that his eye is actually red since Theon says it's black.   Euron is also known to wear a red or black eye patch.  I think he wears the red when he's bloody-minded and the black when his blue eye is smiling.  I think his crow eye is damaged and that's why he wears a patch.

It seems that one doesn't necessarily have to be 'marked' to be a potential greenseer given that Bran has neither red nor green eyes.  We're talking about the potential for a third eye to be opened and that may be in the blood.