Where did Jon go ? SPOILERS

[Zorral]

10 hours ago, Ydra Stark said:

"there will always need to be a place for bastards and broken things

That's where Bran the Broken should have gone then! 

[NymeriaWarriorQueen]

.

[Darryk]

3 hours ago, The Baelish Mockingbird said:

The Unsullied weren't the only ones pissed off with Jon. Other factions like the Iron Islands were also not happy with him. Many of the other lords as well wouldn't have understood the full extent of what Jon did and would just figure him to be a Queenslayer who deserves punishment.

Did the Ironborn still have a fleet? If not, I doubt they'd be able to do much about it if the council just told Grey Worm and his Unsullied to bugger off or hang.

Besides, they didn't kick up too much of a fuss when Bran granted the North independence but kept everyone else as vassals, so my guess is they're not in any position to make demands.

Not sure what other factions or lords would be pissed off at Jon for killing the queen who brought Dothraki and other foreigners to invade Westeros, and then burnt down King's Landing.

[The Baelish Mockingbird]

51 minutes ago, Darryk said:

Did the Ironborn still have a fleet? If not, I doubt they'd be able to do much about it if the council just told Grey Worm and his Unsullied to bugger off or hang.

Besides, they didn't kick up too much of a fuss when Bran granted the North independence but kept everyone else as vassals, so my guess is they're not in any position to make demands.

Not sure what other factions or lords would be pissed off at Jon for killing the queen who brought Dothraki and other foreigners to invade Westeros, and then burnt down King's Landing.

I think Yara still had Ironborn loyalists and a couple of fleets, that's really besides the point though. It really would not be worth giving Jon immunity and risk losing faith with most of the other houses. I mean aside from keeping the other houses happy, why would they want to completely disregard the Unsullied anyway? The Unsullied gave their lives to help save many of the people in that council, they're also an incredibly strong army who would be terrible to have as enemies. It really makes no sense disregarding the Unsullied, the Ironborn and maybe a few other Lords just to grant one person freedom. I mean it's not like they sent Jon to work in the mines of Old Valyria, they sent him to the Wall. The place he freely chose to go at the start of the series. It's both punishment and freedom for Jon. I'm 100% certain Jon would have rather they kept everyone happy and sent him to the wall rather than purposely lose faith with the Unsullied and the Ironborn.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Why would anybody mind that Yara is mad at Jon, anyway? What are they going to do if she just says "well, fuck, we're independent now", consiering the North is already independent as well.

The reason for Jon going to the Wall is absurd, tbh. A lot of people who isn't even there were mad at him so he left. If there is any indication that Jon, in the books, decides to go North on his own, fine, but here, that wasn't his reason. We're assuming he's fine with it.

Where did he go? Honestly, wherever you wanted him to go. There is no much offered hints that would tell us much of it. It's as open as Arya discovering Americos.

[Targaryen Peas]

17 hours ago, Darryk said:

My guess is the Dothraki and Unsullied are mostly in tatters (Dany didn't even need them to take King's Landing), and the remnants of the Northern and Vale armies could crush them.

***

Your theory regarding Sansa, that this was all some ploy to get rid of Jon...is no different from the theory that Bran is an evil Three Eyed Raven plotting mankind's downfall all along. It WOULD have been an interesting twist, but the show's done nothing to establish it, so really, it's just up in the air.

Apart from the crapy respawn. The show said that she lost half her army. Which let her with 50k.

Are saying that the whole Northern armies could take 50k mix Unsullied and Dothraki.

The unsullied are a professional army, where the northern are just men, strong, but not trained their whole life for it. So yes it would have been a bloodshed but who would have paid the biggest tribute? the cockless army, or the one who have families waiting for them? 

 

And as for Sansa, I'm not saying she plotted something. But the occasion presented herself and she took it. She always wanted to be THE queen, and Jon was a threat.

I want to answer about that Bran thing. How isn't he evil if he let Dany kill all those innocent when he knew? He could have gotten her killed without her going north.

[Einheri]

From EW:

“Like Jon Snow going beyond The Wall to start a new life with the Wildlings, Harington is ready for something new.”

Source: https://ew.com/tv/2019/05/22/game-of-thrones-farewell-ew-cover/

I’m really hoping that this is true. Him being stuck in a military penal unit for the rest of his life after having saved Westeros twice over is such a shitty ending for Jonno.

[Loge]

Jon just rides into the sunset.

[Corvo the Crow]

He went Beyond the Wall to plan out how to steal the only redhead of relevance in the show and also pull out a bael the bard.

[Darryk]

10 hours ago, The Baelish Mockingbird said:

I think Yara still had Ironborn loyalists and a couple of fleets, that's really besides the point though. It really would not be worth giving Jon immunity and risk losing faith with most of the other houses. I mean aside from keeping the other houses happy, why would they want to completely disregard the Unsullied anyway? The Unsullied gave their lives to help save many of the people in that council, they're also an incredibly strong army who would be terrible to have as enemies. It really makes no sense disregarding the Unsullied, the Ironborn and maybe a few other Lords just to grant one person freedom. I mean it's not like they sent Jon to work in the mines of Old Valyria, they sent him to the Wall. The place he freely chose to go at the start of the series. It's both punishment and freedom for Jon. I'm 100% certain Jon would have rather they kept everyone happy and sent him to the wall rather than purposely lose faith with the Unsullied and the Ironborn.

Well is it worth giving the North independence and losing faith with the other houses? I reckon they'd be more pissed off about that.

I mean it's so weird how none of Jon's supposed friends or family in the council tried to press his claim to the throne as justification for him killing Dany. If he's the rightful king doesn't have to answer to anyone. Did Targaryen loyalists get to demand that Robert Baratheon be punished after he deposed the Mad King?

Yeah, sure the Unsullied helped them in the battle of Winterfell, so maybe they feel they owe them; yet they think they don't owe Jon anything? What about the Northmen, who would want Jon home. They sure as hell sacrificed a lot more than the Unsullied. 

I agree Jon preferred it that way, and as I said, it would have been more poignant if he made the choice to go himself, but the idea that everyone just casually sold him down the river because war criminal Grey Worm threw a hissy fit is your usual bone-headed writing from this show.

[Darryk]

2 hours ago, Targaryen Peas said:

Apart from the crapy respawn. The show said that she lost half her army. Which let her with 50k.

Are saying that the whole Northern armies could take 50k mix Unsullied and Dothraki.

The unsullied are a professional army, where the northern are just men, strong, but not trained their whole life for it. So yes it would have been a bloodshed but who would have paid the biggest tribute? the cockless army, or the one who have families waiting for them? 

 

And as for Sansa, I'm not saying she plotted something. But the occasion presented herself and she took it. She always wanted to be THE queen, and Jon was a threat.

I want to answer about that Bran thing. How isn't he evil if he let Dany kill all those innocent when he knew? He could have gotten her killed without her going north.

50k? How the hell did it get to that number? She only started off with about 12k.

So only 50k of the original 12k Unsullied survived the battle of Winterfell?

[The Baelish Mockingbird]

27 minutes ago, Darryk said:

Well is it worth giving the North independence and losing faith with the other houses? I reckon they'd be more pissed off about that.

I mean it's so weird how none of Jon's supposed friends or family in the council tried to press his claim to the throne as justification for him killing Dany. If he's the rightful king doesn't have to answer to anyone. Did Targaryen loyalists get to demand that Robert Baratheon be punished after he deposed the Mad King?

Yeah, sure the Unsullied helped them in the battle of Winterfell, so maybe they feel they owe them; yet they think they don't owe Jon anything? What about the Northmen, who would want Jon home. They sure as hell sacrificed a lot more than the Unsullied. 

I agree Jon preferred it that way, and as I said, it would have been more poignant if he made the choice to go himself, but the idea that everyone just casually sold him down the river because war criminal Grey Worm threw a hissy fit is your usual bone-headed writing from this show.

Giving the North independence wouldn't lose faith with the other houses, not with the long and bloody war that they had to fight to reclaim independence. Now I would argue that some other houses should have fought more to reclaim their independence, not that it's an excuse to let them go free.

Completely different scenario. Robert won the throne by right of conquest. The Targaryen's and their loyalists could try to get Robert punished for it but it wouldn't have gone anywhere. It's very different to Jon supporting Dany for the throne and then killing her. It's more comparable to Jaime killing Aerys than it is to Robert taking the throne. The main reason Jaime was spared was to appease the Lannisters which caused quite a bit of friction through the other houses who believed he should have been executed or sent to take the black.

The Northmen sacrificed more than the Unsullied? Very debatable seeing as how the Unsullied sacrificed their lives to help all the Northmen retreat back within the gates. And I'm pretty sure the Northmen would be fine with Jon taking the black. Had he been executed, they might have been pissed. 

Grey Worm isn't exactly a war criminal, he's a soldier following orders. You don't give the Unsullied enough credit for all they did to save the Kingdoms. Even after Dany attacked King's Landing the Unsullied only attack the Lannister Soldiers. Of course Grey Worm wants Jon punished, he actively killed their Queen. Now I do agree that Jon should have come to the decision himself but the point here is that him being sent to take the black is really not out of the ordinary.

[Targaryen Peas]

1 hour ago, Darryk said:

50k? How the hell did it get to that number? She only started off with about 12k.

So only 50k of the original 12k Unsullied survived the battle of Winterfell?

That may be on me, I thought I read she had 50k.

Edit: I checked, she had 8k Unsullied and 100k dothraki (Jorah said that in S6)

[CrypticWeirwood]

5 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

He went Beyond the Wall to plan out how to steal the only redhead of relevance in the show and also pull out a bael the bard.

But who will manage Winterfell if he steals Sansa?

[Corvo the Crow]

He’ll leave a blue rose.

[Darryk]

7 hours ago, The Baelish Mockingbird said:

Giving the North independence wouldn't lose faith with the other houses, not with the long and bloody war that they had to fight to reclaim independence. Now I would argue that some other houses should have fought more to reclaim their independence, not that it's an excuse to let them go free.

Completely different scenario. Robert won the throne by right of conquest. The Targaryen's and their loyalists could try to get Robert punished for it but it wouldn't have gone anywhere. It's very different to Jon supporting Dany for the throne and then killing her. It's more comparable to Jaime killing Aerys than it is to Robert taking the throne. The main reason Jaime was spared was to appease the Lannisters which caused quite a bit of friction through the other houses who believed he should have been executed or sent to take the black.

The Northmen sacrificed more than the Unsullied? Very debatable seeing as how the Unsullied sacrificed their lives to help all the Northmen retreat back within the gates. And I'm pretty sure the Northmen would be fine with Jon taking the black. Had he been executed, they might have been pissed. 

Grey Worm isn't exactly a war criminal, he's a soldier following orders. You don't give the Unsullied enough credit for all they did to save the Kingdoms. Even after Dany attacked King's Landing the Unsullied only attack the Lannister Soldiers. Of course Grey Worm wants Jon punished, he actively killed their Queen. Now I do agree that Jon should have come to the decision himself but the point here is that him being sent to take the black is really not out of the ordinary.

Weird, cause I seem remember that the Iron Islands cared a lot about independence two seasons ago, and now suddenly don't? Dorne weren't exactly enthusiastic members of the kingdoms either, and then there's the hundreds of lords who weren't even present at the council.

The Targaryen's and their loyalists could try to get Robert punished for it but it wouldn't have gone anywhere <-- exactly because Robert's armies would just smash them, right? Just as Jon's allies could have just smashed Grey Worm and his severely depleted forces. "Right of conquest" is what you proclaim after you do that.

People's response to this line of argument is usually along the lines of "well they didn't want to fight Grey Worm's army cause it was big and powerful" but how big and powerful could it be at this point? And would Jon's allies not even care enough about him to try? You don't think it's weird that Sansa and Tyrion seemed to care about Jon's claim two episodes ago and now suddenly forgot about it? 

Don't see much similarity between Jon and Jaime's situation. Jon isn't a Kingsguard and swore no oaths to protect Dany. Sure, he supported her claim, but that was before she massacred an entire city, and unlike Jaime, he has a claim to the throne, and allies who would be prepared to back it, if they weren't acting completely out of character that is.

I'm willing to concede that people would be more sympathetic to the Unsullied because they helped the North fight the dead, I just don't see them being sympathetic enough to sell Jon down the river, considering what he's done for the realm. I mean, the council was mostly made up of people that were either a) loyal to Jon or b) loyal to Sansa, who was loyal to Jon, unless you go with the theory that Sansa was secretly trying to get rid of him all along, which is a stretch.

True, the Unsullied only killed Lannister soldiers (surrendered soldiers, mind you), although the Dothraki were raping and murdering everything in sight, as they tend to do, and they were all part of Dany's army. Just don't see many Westerosi taking a positive view of anyone loyal to Dany at this point.

This whole thing, this entire illogical mess, could have been prevented if the writers had just had Jon make the decision to go North himself. Say Jon's allies are threatening to attack the Unsullied, but then Jon steps in and pledges to go north to prevent more bloodshed. Far more poignant, and achieves the same narrative result without making several characters look stupid and out-of-character.

Most of all it would have actually provided the character of Jon Snow with some agency, something he's been stripped off the past couple of seasons where almost every goddamn thing he does is because someone else told him to do it.

 

 

 

[The Baelish Mockingbird]

1 hour ago, Darryk said:

Weird, cause I seem remember that the Iron Islands cared a lot about independence two seasons ago, and now suddenly don't? Dorne weren't exactly enthusiastic members of the kingdoms either, and then there's the hundreds of lords who weren't even present at the council.

The Targaryen's and their loyalists could try to get Robert punished for it but it wouldn't have gone anywhere <-- exactly because Robert's armies would just smash them, right? Just as Jon's allies could have just smashed Grey Worm and his severely depleted forces. "Right of conquest" is what you proclaim after you do that.

People's response to this line of argument is usually along the lines of "well they didn't want to fight Grey Worm's army cause it was big and powerful" but how big and powerful could it be at this point? And would Jon's allies not even care enough about him to try? You don't think it's weird that Sansa and Tyrion seemed to care about Jon's claim two episodes ago and now suddenly forgot about it? 

Don't see much similarity between Jon and Jaime's situation. Jon isn't a Kingsguard and swore no oaths to protect Dany. Sure, he supported her claim, but that was before she massacred an entire city, and unlike Jaime, he has a claim to the throne, and allies who would be prepared to back it, if they weren't acting completely out of character that is.

I'm willing to concede that people would be more sympathetic to the Unsullied because they helped the North fight the dead, I just don't see them being sympathetic enough to sell Jon down the river, considering what he's done for the realm. I mean, the council was mostly made up of people that were either a) loyal to Jon or b) loyal to Sansa, who was loyal to Jon, unless you go with the theory that Sansa was secretly trying to get rid of him all along, which is a stretch.

True, the Unsullied only killed Lannister soldiers (surrendered soldiers, mind you), although the Dothraki were raping and murdering everything in sight, as they tend to do, and they were all part of Dany's army. Just don't see many Westerosi taking a positive view of anyone loyal to Dany at this point.

This whole thing, this entire illogical mess, could have been prevented if the writers had just had Jon make the decision to go North himself. Say Jon's allies are threatening to attack the Unsullied, but then Jon steps in and pledges to go north to prevent more bloodshed. Far more poignant, and achieves the same narrative result without making several characters look stupid and out-of-character.

Most of all it would have actually provided the character of Jon Snow with some agency, something he's been stripped off the past couple of seasons where almost every goddamn thing he does is because someone else told him to do it.

 

 

 

You see, the whole Ironborn problem is completely seperate to the problem of Jon Snow being sent to the Night's Watch. The Ironborn accepting Bran as King without even putting up any kind of fight is definitely a plot hole. That I will definitely concede.

As I said, it is an incredibly different scenario between Jon and Robert. Robert fought a war against a Aerys and thus won the throne through right of conquest. Jon fought a war with Dany and ended up killing her at the 11th hour. Not only that but Jon was captured and imprisoned by the Unsullied, they could have killed him anytime they wanted to. And to many of these people, the Unsullied were necessarily enemies, they had fought for the living alongside some of the other houses. Robert took the throne through conquest. Jon didn't take the throne, he betrayed his Queen and killed her. 

The issue about Sansa and Tyrion not pressing about Jon's heritage and pressing for him to be sent to the wall most likely happened off screen. However since it likely happened off screen and it is an incredibly important detail, I will also concede that this was indeed a misfire on the writers parts. However the idea that the Unsullied and spome of the other Houses wouldn't be as happy to serve under a guy who stabbed the Queen he had fought for is pretty realistic, if not mishandled. Jon being sent to the wall is the most realistic possibility, just it was mishandled. I'm not trying to argue that it was handled correctly, I'm arguing that actively defying the wishes of the Unsullied and many other people which would start open conflict would be an incredibly daft thing to do especially since Jon doesn't want the throne in the first place and wouldn't appreciate it. I do wish Jon had come to the decision of going NW himself though.

The whole season has so a lot of logical inconsistencies, and it cut so many corners in showing us how this decision came to be but it is one of the more realistic decisions in the finale.

[BlueNightzx]

i doubt very much that asha will end up leading the ironborn, if those islands don't sink after Euron lovecraftian rituals, i see Rodrik the reader as a candidate to lead them, he is the most "green land" and traditional westerosi lord of the ironborn, and i can see him accepting to be ruled by the iron throne(or whatever replaces it),but for asha.  as asha said, she was defeated now twice, a prisoner of stannis, and a woman, any claim of hers is over by now.