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Jon killing Dany doesn’t work for me


Tyrion1991

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1 minute ago, Pacala said:

Or someone revive him. Because hi is Christ and he must sacrifice for the greater good.

As Martin said "I hate this war against great evil, i like to do different things". No Heroes, No Villains.

Well i guess we have to wait for Martin ending now.

I like Jon he is the John Crichton of Game of Thrones. He suffers and suffers and people always want something from him and suffers some more. But he mostly stays good. 

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In the world as created it made little sense

In the world created?  What did you expect in the world created by GRRM?  Good and love to triumph over everything?   I don't think you and I have the same opinion of the world created by GRRM.  Jon seems one of the very few to care about those below him and even then this comes after the sickening revelation (for him) that his brothers in the night watch are often low born bastards, poachers, rapists, thieves, and criminals.  During his training in the Nights Watch it has to be pointed out to him that many of his fellow members had not held a sword let alone been trained by a Master at Arms.   The Red Wedding was not fair.  The execution of Ned was not fair.  Arya's "fencing" trainer being killed by the Knights when he allowed her to escape was not fair.  

Jon had a sense of duty no doubt but he also had an understanding of the human side of the equation (hence the wildings).  He also had a sense of protecting family over duty (he road away from the Nights Watch to help Robb).  So the sudden idea that he MUST chose duty to Dany after seeing the destruction of Kings Landing is not in line with the story we have been told.  Was he torn?  Yes - and we have seen him torn over and over in the past.  

Expecting an ending where love triumphs and good wins (whatever that means after the destruction of Kings Landing) or even an ending that wraps up neatly is just not what this story was about.  

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10 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

And this is because her advisors talked her out of it each time, not because she was so level-headed.

Well, it didn't. If Westeros' people had adored her, if the Northern hailed and thanked her, if Jon had reciprocated her affections, if Sansa had not been such a bitchy Lady of Winterfell. If she had not lost two dragons. Not lossed Jorah, Missandei, Varys, Tyrion by war or betrayal, she might not have snapped. If she had had good advisors before the battle, she might have conquered just the Red Keep and killed Cersei. But she was on her own, lonel,y not loved, not adored, all the brainwash from her childhood not coming true. Reality being bitter compared to dreams. No advisor to talk her out of it like Jorah in his best days.

Nothing in life really in inevitable. But it was all there, all the time. It's Daenerys character, personality and nature.  From season 1 to 8.

Her spontaneous solution to opposition was always her threat to destroy and burn down. Without advisors, she did just that.

But, she had won.  She no longer had any opposition, apart from Cersei.  She had the fear that she wanted.  The inhabitants would have got down on their hands and knees before her. 

Killing Cersei, and torching the Red Keep is still believable in that situation, but torching people who have no intention of defying her , in preference to going after Cersei is not - unless she's already been shown to be a person who aims to maximise suffering. 

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5 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

Thus he avoids disaster by bending his honor. 

Agreed. Jon does the right thing here. And eventually he leaves with the Free Folk, abonding duty and old-style honor again. At least he learned a little bit.

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13 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

I like Jon he is the John Crichton of Game of Thrones. He suffers and suffers and people always want something from him and suffers some more. But he mostly stays good. 

He dosen`t, he is from other world. A real person should have some sort of reaction, go mad or killherself, something. He has none, he is just a tool. Others have reactions for him. At least Christ sacrificed for humanity with a purpose.

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46 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Ned and Robbs deaths work because you sympathise and relate to the various POV. We like Arya and Cat so we’re sad when they see the people they love die.

My point is that I do not feel any empathy with Jon as a character and have always disliked him. If I am not sold on his love for Daenerys and if I don’t share that pain then I wouldn’t buy into this being a tragedy. Had the story been just about him I would never have picked up the show and so him becoming so central creates a serious problem.

If you’re going to repackage the Dark Phoenix storyline then you need to like Cyclops. 

You're one person though. Plenty of people like Jon Snow and don't like Dany. GRRM isn't writing the books for you.

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53 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

My point is that I do not feel any empathy with Jon as a character and have always disliked him.

That's just your personal take. I am not THAT a fan of him, too, but I like he ambivalent feeling. It's fine if characters are grey-nuanced and that leads to liking some more and some less, no matter how "traditionally good" they are supposed to be. That was one of the strengths of S1-S4 GoT.

54 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

If I am not sold on his love for Daenerys

Well, I agree that the two actors had not the best chemistry and the romance was not performed really well. Maybe it was too rushed, maybe the chemistry simply didn't work out. So yes, this love and romance was no so great in the show. But, I accepted that the story was meant that way. I was sold to the point that they indeed loved each other, even if the acting is mediocre here.

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8 hours ago, SeanF said:

IMHO, her ending should have been like Michael Corleone, sitting alone in the shadows, having won everything she wanted, at the cost of losing everything that mattered.

It's hard to tell exactly what the show thinks it's saying, especially w/regard to Sansa, since many of her actions were objectively bad, maybe she is the Michael Corleone?  Maybe she really was actively trying to undercut Jon the whole time, and then using Jon and Tyrion to get rid of Dany.  So, she gets what she wanted, she's queen, no one will ever order her around again, but she is bereft of all her family.  I don't believe this is what the show is telling us, but you could read that subtext if you wanted to, and GRRM could make Sansa's eventual victory through scheming more of a hollow victory.  Just a thought.

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14 minutes ago, RFL said:

The show was clear that she did not just stop at torching the Red Keep and Cersei and those who had sought refuge there.  She torched Kings Landing.  

Because she got angry at her losses. She followed every single one of Tyrion’s orders asking her to be non-confrontational and where did that bring her? Anyone is bound to say screw it burn em all after a few tries. 

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10 minutes ago, RFL said:

The show was clear that she did not just stop at torching the Red Keep and Cersei and those who had sought refuge there.  She torched Kings Landing.  

I think the show runners did it this way for a couple of reasons.  One, they wanted to shock us with just how evil Dany’s turn was.  Two, they wanted to make sure Jon didn’t have to deal with a terribly difficult decision to kill her.  It was all black and white, no grey.  It’s too bad, because shades of grey is what made the show great.  

Imagine, instead, if Dany’s actions had been provoked in some way - the bells never ring, Missandei/Rhaegal is killed after the bells.  If Dany torches the city then, her actions, while still ultimately wrong, have some justification.  Then, let’s say Dany is not full-blown Hitler after the burning of the city, but rationalizes her actions and commands Jon not to question her authority.  Then, Jon is faced with a much more difficult decision.  If he decides to kill her as punishment and because he fears her future responses of anger, it’s a grey decision he’ll have to live with the rest of his life.  He would have to struggle with what’s the right and wrong decision. 

Instead of complexity and debatable characters and actions, we get black and white.  Dany goes psycho, Jon has to kill her.  Show over.   

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5 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

It's hard to tell exactly what the show thinks it's saying, especially w/regard to Sansa, since many of her actions were objectively bad, maybe she is the Michael Corleone?  Maybe she really was actively trying to undercut Jon the whole time, and then using Jon and Tyrion to get rid of Dany.  So, she gets what she wanted, she's queen, no one will ever order her around again, but she is bereft of all her family.  I don't believe this is what the show is telling us, but you could read that subtext if you wanted to, and GRRM could make Sansa's eventual victory through scheming more of a hollow victory.  Just a thought.

Her being bereft of family was expected regardless of what she did. Even if everything went nicely and Dany became queen, Jon would be at Kings Landing and Arya would still leave no matter the outcome. She was going to remain alone regardless of what she did. Although I do believe Jon being at the Wall would visit her from time to time so it’s a pure win for her. 

The show has given a Disney ending to everyone except  Dany and Jon. Jon is cooling his heels living as a lumber jack in the wild North, while Arya and Bran and Sansa amd Tyrion all enjoy their promotions. 

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12 minutes ago, KingMudd said:

You're one person though. Plenty of people like Jon Snow and don't like Dany. GRRM isn't writing the books for you.

 

Its an opinion piece. Jon Snow being cyclops doesn’t work for me. Never said it wouldn’t work for other people.

He kind of is. He was doing it for himself we wouldn’t be paying him.

 

 

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Quote

Its an opinion piece. Jon Snow being cyclops doesn’t work for me. Never said it wouldn’t work for other people.

He kind of is. He was doing it for himself we wouldn’t be paying him.

I don't think your two premises work together.  You defend your opinion as your opinion and singular in nature.  You then argue that he is working for a collective be that collective is paying him.  You cannot demand autonomy in one premise and the a consideration as the collective in another.  

 

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1 minute ago, Lord Stackspear said:

I think the show runners did it this way for a couple of reasons.  One, they wanted to shock us with just how evil Dany’s turn was.  Two, they wanted to make sure Jon didn’t have to deal with a terribly difficult decision to kill her.  It was all black and white, no grey.  It’s too bad, because shades of grey is what made the show great.  

Imagine, instead, if Dany’s actions had been provoked in some way - the bells never ring, Missandei/Rhaegal is killed after the bells.  If Dany torches the city then, her actions, while still ultimately wrong, have some justification.  Then, let’s say Dany is not full-blown Hitler after the burning of the city, but rationalizes her actions and commands Jon not to question her authority.  Then, Jon is faced with a much more difficult decision.  If he decides to kill her as punishment and because he fears her future responses of anger, it’s a grey decision he’ll have to live with the rest of his life.  He would have to struggle with what’s the right and wrong decision. 

Instead of complexity and debatable characters and actions, we get black and white.  Dany goes psycho, Jon has to kill her.  Show over.   

That.  Having her turn so evil in Ep. 5,  and then becoming Adolf Hitler in Ep. 6,  makes it easy to justify killing her , but it's so jarring that for a lot of viewers, it simply doesn't work.

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4 minutes ago, Sheiraseastar23 said:

Well, this time she did't listen to her advisors, and look where that brought her. Dead and gone down in history as a mad tyrant with a very short rule.

She is still very popular in Essos. And she shouldn’t have listened to her advisors in the first place. Going to the red keep when there were no scorpions torching it down and killing Cersei would have been much more efficient. I hold Tyrion and Jon and all the native westerosis responsible for her descent into madness. Her original plan was the most effective and there would have been zero losses and no madness. 

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3 minutes ago, Kaapstad said:

Her being bereft of family was expected regardless of what she did. Even if everything went nicely and Dany became queen, Jon would be at Kings Landing and Arya would still leave no matter the outcome. She was going to remain alone regardless of what she did. Although I do believe Jon being at the Wall would visit her from time to time so it’s a pure win for her. 

The show has given a Disney ending to everyone except  Dany and Jon. Jon is cooling his heels living as a lumber jack in the wild North, while Arya and Bran and Sansa amd Tyrion all enjoy their promotions. 

I don't really see Arya leaving Westeros forever as a 'win' and I suspect her reasons in the books will be much darker and also more close to tragic than the way the show portrayed it.  If her sister is queen and her brother is king, why does she need to leave?  She can do whatever she wants.

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2 minutes ago, Kaapstad said:

She is still very popular in Essos. And she shouldn’t have listened to her advisors in the first place. Going to the red keep when there were no scorpions torching it down and killing Cersei would have been much more efficient. I hold Tyrion and Jon and all the native westerosis for her descent into madness. Her original plan was the most effective and there would have been zero losses and no madness. 

That was the biggest plot contrivance of all.  Of course Tyrion and Varys would have agreed that taking out the Red Keep at the outset was the easiest way to end the war swiftly.  That doesn't necessitate strafing all of Kings Landing.

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