Jon killing Dany doesn’t work for me

[Kajjo]

5 minutes ago, Kaapstad said:

The show has given a Disney ending to everyone except  Dany and Jon.

No, that's to harsh. It's not real Disney.

Sansa has no lover, but is on her own. She toughened quite a lot. 

Arya leaves Westeros altogether. No Hollywoodish reunion with Gendry out of sudden insight or so. 

I like these endings. They are true to the story. Grey, not black or white.

I didn't like the Bronn ending. That was absurd and comical.

They could have done a bit better with Samwell, too. Grand Maester is too fast, he should be Lord of Hornhill, with Gilly and the children. 

[Apoplexy]

On 5/21/2019 at 6:44 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

Since this is the direction GRRM is going this is a massive problem because I really do not like Jon Snow. Which, given that he kills my favourite character is adding insult to injury. Yet, in the show you are very much being put in Jon Snows shoes and the show assumes that you like him. To make his grief your grief. 

But if you don’t care for Jon that’s very difficult to do. I didn’t buy that Jon cared about Daenerys. They hadn’t shared much time together at all. He hadn’t been on a journey with her. So I didn’t feel his pain and frankly I wanted Drogon to kill him. Which is clearly not the writers intent.

Which means in the books Danys arc will rely on her loving a character I despise. Never mind foreknowledge that this guys gonna kill her.

Its actually is worse that Dany is killed by Jon. Because he represents everything I don’t like about the series. It means that GRRM considers Jon the protagonist and ultimately the story hinges on him making his decision to murder Daenerys. Then focus on his emo feelings on the matter. Which is very difficult if you’ve never liked Jon Snow.

I can see that. I was indifferent towards Dany and Jon, but I won't be surprised if Dany fans stop reading the books.

[SeanF]

On 5/22/2019 at 12:44 AM, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Its actually is worse that Dany is killed by Jon. Because he represents everything I don’t like about the series. It means that GRRM considers Jon the protagonist and ultimately the story hinges on him making his decision to murder Daenerys. Then focus on his emo feelings on the matter. Which is very difficult if you’ve never liked Jon Snow.

It depends on the grounds.  If it ends like the show, yes, I think that would be a poor ending.  I would expect that Martin would do better than that.

I can live with Jon killing Daenerys because they've become political enemies, and one of them has to take the other down.

One reason why we should expect the endgame in the books to be very different (even if the main characters meet similar fates) is because Tyrion in the books is very different to St. Tyrion of the Show.

[El Guapo]

3 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I can see that. I was indifferent towards Dany and Jon, but I won't be surprised if Dany fans stop reading the books.

Oh I will definitely keep reading the books, that is if they are ever published. For one I am not convinced that is how the books will end but if it is how Dany turns out I have faith that George will write a much more interesting story than D&D did

[KingMudd]

14 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Its an opinion piece. Jon Snow being cyclops doesn’t work for me. Never said it wouldn’t work for other people.

He kind of is. He was doing it for himself we wouldn’t be paying him.

 

 

He's really not. He's writing a story he wants to tell and people buy that story.

[Cas Stark]

I don't really want to read about Dany's increasing atrocities, paranoia and depression that all leads to her death and Jon Snow's exile.  Even if it's beautifully written and realized, that isn't what I signed up for: tragic endings for the main protagonists of the story, semi tragic ending for Arya, with only the inveterate schemers Sansa and Tyrion getting what they want.  Not interested.

[King Jon Snow Stark]

1 minute ago, KingMudd said:

He's really not. He's writing a story he wants to tell and people buy that story.

Yup. He is writing for himself he has no clue what we will like until he puts it out. 

[TheTuninator]

I think this twist will work very well in the books, but it was utterly and completely unearned on the show, which really leaves a sour taste in my mouth. 

[Kaapstad]

18 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I don't really see Arya leaving Westeros forever as a 'win' and I suspect her reasons in the books will be much darker and also more close to tragic than the way the show portrayed it.  If her sister is queen and her brother is king, why does she need to leave?  She can do whatever she wants.

It’s never said Arya is leaving Westeros forever. She just tells Jon she can’t visit him. It could be a decade but she could eventually return after finding out what lies there. In the show she has a thick plot armour so going by that it’s safe to say she returns alive. 

‘I think she leaves as she is not of the type to stay at home as a lady doing nothing. She is an adventurous person and like her experience with the faceless men she wants to do something daring. There is nothing in Westeros to meet her sense of adventure. 

[King Jon Snow Stark]

Just now, Kaapstad said:

It’s never said Arya is leaving Westeros forever. She just tells Jon she can’t visit him. It could be a decade but she could eventually written after finding out what lies there. In the show she has a thick plot armour so going by that it’s safe to say she returns alive. 

‘I think she leaves as she is not of the type to stay at home as a lady doing nothing. She is an adventurous person and like her experience with the faceless men she wants to do something daring. There is nothing in Westeros to meet her sense of adventure. 

Since Jon apparently left Castle Black he wont see her again either way. Unless she comes looking for him beyond the wall. 

[KingMudd]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

I don't really want to read about Dany's increasing atrocities, paranoia and depression that all leads to her death and Jon Snow's exile.  Even if it's beautifully written and realized, that isn't what I signed up for: tragic endings for the main protagonists of the story, semi tragic ending for Arya, with only the inveterate schemers Sansa and Tyrion getting what they want.  Not interested.

I think that's the main problem with endings. There will always be some that are unhappy with how it happens. You can't please everyone and a really good ending for one person might be the worst ending for someone else. I actually didn't mind the show ending. It was rushed and needed a few more episodes but I wouldnt mind if that is the ending of the books, just more fleshed out.

The more I think about the show now that it's over the more I realize that I might have enjoyed the last few seasons more if I wasn't so preoccupied with wanting my favourite characters to have good things happen to them and being annoyed when charatcers I didn't like got more focus. That's just me though and I know that a lot of people just didn't like it.

[Hodor's Dragon]

8 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

Oh I will definitely keep reading the books, that is if they are ever published. For one I am not convinced that is how the books will end but if it is how Dany turns out I have faith that George will write a much more interesting story than D&D did

This is exactly what I would say. Cheers!

[Apoplexy]

9 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

Oh I will definitely keep reading the books, that is if they are ever published. For one I am not convinced that is how the books will end but if it is how Dany turns out I have faith that George will write a much more interesting story than D&D did

I will keep reading too, but the show has somehow made doubt George's ability to end the series in a remotely satisfactory manner. I know it's impossible to please everyone,  but the show has pissed off nearly everyone, which is a feat by itself.

[Kajjo]

5 minutes ago, Kaapstad said:

She just tells Jon she can’t visit him. It could be a decade but she could eventually return after finding out what lies there

Yes. I agree. 

[Lord Stackspear]

11 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

No, that's to harsh. It's not real Disney.

Sansa has no lover, but is on her own. She toughened quite a lot. 

Arya leaves Westeros altogether. No Hollywoodish reunion with Gendry out of sudden insight or so. 

I like these endings. They are true to the story. Grey, not black or white.

I didn't like the Bronn ending. That was absurd and comical.

They could have done a bit better with Samwell, too. Grand Maester is too fast, he should be Lord of Hornhill, with Gilly and the children. 

Who exactly got a “grey” ending?  Everyone other than Dany are pretty much living their life in a happy, pretty much what they wanted sort of way - heck, even Jon basically gets what wants.  

That said, regardless of whether the endings were grey or Disney, they mostly just didn’t make much sense in the world of Westeros we have known up until this point.  

Neither Bronn nor Gendry could have become respected Lords of the Reach and the Stormlands without some sort of powerful monarch backing them up and not in just several weeks time.  

The idea that the North would want independence from a male, Stark king and would prefer Sansa as their Queen is just silly in the world of Westeros that had existed until now. 

The idea that any of the 6 other kingdoms would submit to a Stark king while allowing the North to go independent makes no sense.  Yara had really not fully submitted to Dany (was still calling herself Queen of the Iron Islands).  Dorne was always a more independent kingdom.

All of it was just quick, let’s wrap this up and be done with it.  Who cares whether it makes sense, let’s get it over with and get on to our Star Wars trilogy.  

[Cas Stark]

2 minutes ago, KingMudd said:

I think that's the main problem with endings. There will always be some that are unhappy with how it happens. You can't please everyone and a really good ending for one person might be the worst ending for someone else. I actually didn't mind the show ending. It was rushed and needed a few more episodes but I wouldnt mind if that is the ending of the books, just more fleshed out.

The more I think about the show now that it's over the more I realize that I might have enjoyed the last few seasons more if I wasn't so preoccupied with wanting my favourite characters to have good things happen to them and being annoyed when charatcers I didn't like got more focus. That's just me though and I know that a lot of people just didn't like it.

It feels like a bait and switch, the promise was 'bittersweet' the actual result was tragic.  Dany destroys herself and is then killed, Jon is exiled, Arya finds and then for whatever reasons, leaves her family again.  Jamie's redemption story may fail.  The Hound's may fail also, but that seems less likely.  Sansa betrayed everyone and is rewarded.  Tyrion betrayed everyone, committed murder and is rewarded.  I don't see any message here that is worth waiting another 10 years for.  IMO

[RFL]

but the show has pissed off nearly everyone

I don't think that is the case.  I think there is a vocal minority but that was going to be the case regardless of what happened.  

Am I in love with the ending.  No to me it feels like there wasn't one.  The wheel keeps on turning.  Which I think was really the story GRRM was telling all along.  The high lords will play the game of thrones and the rest will suffer because of it.  

[Kaapstad]

1 minute ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Since Jon apparently left Castle Black he wont see her again either way. Unless she comes looking for him beyond the wall. 

Well they have made it a little ambiguous whether he is going to live with the free folk permanently. Even so it depends on how long Jon plans to stay beyond the wall. I never really got the feeling he liked it there apart from his interactions with Ygritte. Even some of the free folk don’t like it which is why they kept trying break into the North.  Once he feels he has suffered enough for his sins, I expect he will return to the North eventually. 

[Kajjo]

1 minute ago, Lord Stackspear said:

That said, regardless of whether the endings were grey or Disney, they mostly just didn’t make much sense in the world of Westeros we have known up until this point.  

Sansa, Arya and Jon make a lot of sense to me. What do you not understand?

1 minute ago, Lord Stackspear said:

Neither Bronn nor Gendry could have become respected Lords of the Reach and the Stormlands without some sort of powerful monarch backing them up and not in just several weeks time

I dislike the Bronn ending quite a lot (absurd and comical) and Gendry is a difficult matter. But he is Robert Baratheon's son and Ramsay Bolton was accepted, too. So, bastards can make it. We simply don't know how well oder bad Gendry is as Lord of Storm's End. He just sits there. Nothing to complain for me.

3 minutes ago, Lord Stackspear said:

The idea that the North would want independence from a male, Stark king and would prefer Sansa as their Queen is just silly in the world of Westeros that had existed until now. 

It is not silly that Sansa wants independence for herself and she is accepted as Lady of Winterfell. I can follow the path that the North is fine with independence and hails Sansa as their queen.

4 minutes ago, Lord Stackspear said:

The idea that any of the 6 other kingdoms would submit to a Stark king while allowing the North to go independent makes no sense.  Yara had really not fully submitted to Dany (was still calling herself Queen of the Iron Islands).  Dorne was always a more independent kingdom.

I agree that when I saw this scene for the first time, I expected the others to claim independence, too. This was a strange outcome.

[Lord Stackspear]

1 minute ago, Kajjo said:

Sansa, Arya and Jon make a lot of sense to me. What do you not understand?

Sorry, yeah, I do agree with Arya and Jon - those two make sense.  Less so with Sansa - sure, she wants to be Queen, but I don’t think the North or Westeros in general (aside from Dorne) are places that would prefer a Queen and independence over a King of the 7 kingdoms that came from the Lord paramount’s family of their respective kingdom.  Dorne was historically the only kingdom not to have strict male primogeniture, and I don’t see how the North has suddenly changed, but it is somewhat believable in the context of the show only.