Jon killing Dany doesn’t work for me

[omegaxx]

On 5/23/2019 at 6:05 AM, Isewein said:

But that's the thing. Yes, in E6 her behaviour and speeches can be congruous with her general megalomaniac tendency. Not her burning of the entire capital of the kingdom she wants to rule after it has surrendered, however. No prisoners - sure. Burning of the keep regardless of the human shields to not let Cersei get away - sure.  Even Stalinist mock-trials of Lannister supporters - if you really want to. But burning the entire people she wants to liberate? That's not megalomaniac or ruthless. That's flat out insanity, rendered even more implausible by her reversion to rational in E6.

This.

I have never been a fan of Dany, and have always felt her to be megalomaniac and fundamentally unconcerned in the protection and well-being of her subjects, but her going out of her way to kill a city full of non-combatants who have surrendered with no strategic purpose in mind is the most ridiculous thing the show-writer expects us to believe.

Even the Mongols did not slaughter the city that surrendered before the siege engine touched the wall, and for a very good cause: no one would ever surrender to them and would only fight with the utmost desperation if that were the case.

Even Hitler did not randomly go about ordering the slaughter of civilians for no purpose. All the Nazi atrocities were perpetuated against non-civilians on racial and ideological grounds--and Dany had none to justify slaughter of random small folk of Kingslanding.

[Late to the Game]

On ‎5‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 1:58 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

 

If Jon cared about Dany he would never have told her the truth and certainly wouldn’t have told Sansa. He knows Dany. She reacted badly when she was told about Jorah. It’s inviting disaster. He should not be that ignorant of her. He should not be that ignorant of Sansa. 

You make sacrifices for the people you love otherwise you don’t love or respect them.

How is it more shameful for him to comfort Dany knowing she’s considering killing thousands instead of letting it happen and then murdering her? If he had cared about the common people and wanted to make a stand  for the realm, well, the sacrifices “great” men have to make.

Only a weak man would throw up his hands and murder his lover. He was given multiple opportunities to avoid that situation and each time blundered into it. He then washed his hands of any blame or responsibility. Duty is the death of love indeed, the pretty lies murderers tell themselves.

I knew he was a loser but even I didn’t think he was that pathetic and contemptible. Greyworm should have cut his head off or Drogon should have eaten him. Instead he gets a slap on the wrists. Freak. 

If Dany cared about Jon she would never have tried to prevent him from revealing his true blood line, regardless of whether he wanted the throne or not.  He had suffered his entire life under the 'bastard' label and had every right to claim his heritage as a legitimate Stark/Targaryen.

[Techmaester]

9 minutes ago, Late to the Game said:

If Dany cared about Jon she would never have tried to prevent him from revealing his true blood line, regardless of whether he wanted the throne or not.  He had suffered his entire life under the 'bastard' label and had every right to claim his heritage as a legitimate Stark/Targaryen.

While it's not nice, if he didn't want the IT to begin with and loved her he wouldn't have pushed her on it. Beyond that I can't remember if she got worried before or after he wouldn't have a relationship with her. I don't think she would have cared that much had he embraced her and their relationship progressed. Why wouldn't she want a second Targaryen on the throne with her like her ancestors? 

[Tyrion1991]

1 hour ago, Late to the Game said:

If Dany cared about Jon she would never have tried to prevent him from revealing his true blood line, regardless of whether he wanted the throne or not.  He had suffered his entire life under the 'bastard' label and had every right to claim his heritage as a legitimate Stark/Targaryen.

 

Thats belittling what sitting on the chair means to her. Dany becomes nothing and all her struggles meaningless if she doesn’t sit the throne. She doesn’t have the option of dropping a title and retaining all the power like Jon did as King of the North.

So his ego is more important than her life? That’s a mighty selfish thing to want. To vindicate himself from all the bad men which called him names by dropping a truth bomb. For a man who ran away from his problems to the wall like a coward that doesn’t surprise me. 

 

[Apoplexy]

16 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Thats belittling what sitting on the chair means to her. Dany becomes nothing and all her struggles meaningless if she doesn’t sit the throne. She doesn’t have the option of dropping a title and retaining all the power like Jon did as King of the North.. 

I get that sitting on the IT means more to Dany than Jon. But the trouble is, Jon does indeed have the better claim. I don't see this as a question of who loves whom more, or who would be selfish to not put their claim aside.

The truth was Jon had a better claim, yet did not want the throne. Imo, trying to hide his parentage wouldn't do any good as the secret was likely to leak one way or another. A better way to deal with things would be to try to do damage control so that Dany could hold the throne (if that is what Jon and Dany decided).

As for Jon telling Sansa and Arya, I kinda take your point. Dany could easily view that as Jon conspiring against her. But Dany shouldve realized that she needs more than 'I want to be queen' to hold and retain the IT. She sounded like a petulant 4 yr old. (much of which was the writers fault)

[Tyrion1991]

2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

I get that sitting on the IT means more to Dany than Jon. But the trouble is, Jon does indeed have the better claim. I don't see this as a question of who loves whom more, or who would be selfish to not put their claim aside.

The truth was Jon had a better claim, yet did not want the throne. Imo, trying to hide his parentage wouldn't do any good as the secret was likely to leak one way or another. A better way to deal with things would be to try to do damage control so that Dany could hold the throne (if that is what Jon and Dany decided).

As for Jon telling Sansa and Arya, I kinda take your point. Dany could easily view that as Jon conspiring against her. But Dany shouldve realized that she needs more than 'I want to be queen' to hold and retain the IT. She sounded like a petulant 4 yr old. (much of which was the writers fault)

 

I was hardly backing Viserys to be King. The blood claim Jon has means nothing to me and it shouldn’t mean anything to the audience. That isn’t the primary reason Dany is presented as having deserved the IT. She’s a hero and she’s made the sacrifices to get there. Jon has not. He’s being shunted onto it because his redhead sister doesn’t like blondes and because he has some meat between his legs. These are not sympathetic positions. Northern Independence arguably caused the Red Wedding and was one of Rob’s greatest mistakes because it diplomatically isolates the North. 

Him not wanting the throne is irrelevant. It shows that he’s an insipid and vacuous fool. It’s not a virtue. It’s contemptible. Never mind that he’s lying, I recall in the books him wishing that he was the Young Dragon. You’re saying he didn’t revel in being declared King of the North? I say that he hasn’t been tested or went through what Dany went through. He could easily be broken if you truly him through the crucible. So it’s not a fair comparison.

It is not damage control to go blabbing it to Sansa. Coming from anyone else it’s gossip. From him and Bran it’s a certainty.

Because she’s awesome. Like, really, why is she not being compared to Visenya? Why aren’t the bands singing of this amazing person and all the crazy stuff she’s done? You remember Arya talking about her with Tywin in Harrenhal about Visenya? You’re telling me nobody in Westeros think “wow this person sounds amazing”. In the opening chapter of AFFC you have people gossiping about her exploits in Qaarth. She would be Queen on the grounds of all the amazing feats that she’s done. Those aren’t empty titles. She really is the Breaker of Chains, the Khaleesi of the Dothraki and faced off against the Night King. She brought dragons back into the world by walking through the flames.It requires massive contrivance that nobody in Westeros thinks that this person is awesome. People have been declared Gods in the real world for far, far less than what Dany has achieved.

What has Jon achieved in comparison? He  almost lost the Battle of the Bastards until the Vale saved him. He was Lord commander for a month before getting stabbed and abandoning his oath. He has achieved absolutely nothing to warrant people liking him to the extent that Varys implies. People in the Reach and Westeros should not care about Jon Snow.

 

[lancerman]

20 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Thats belittling what sitting on the chair means to her. Dany becomes nothing and all her struggles meaningless if she doesn’t sit the throne. She doesn’t have the option of dropping a title and retaining all the power like Jon did as King of the North.

So his ego is more important than her life? That’s a mighty selfish thing to want. To vindicate himself from all the bad men which called him names by dropping a truth bomb. For a man who ran away from his problems to the wall like a coward that doesn’t surprise me. 

 

Regardless of her purpose in life, it's not her place to ask Jon Snow to continually hide who he really is for her sake. Imo it makes her look worse that she's so married to an entitlement of the throne that she's desperate for her only living relative to pretend he's someone he's not just because of the possibility that people might want place him there over her. 

Why is what the throne means to her more important than what Jon's identity means to him? Her family lost the throne. She's no more entitled to it than any other would be king or queen anymore. Jon will always be the son of Rheagar and Lyanna. That's something nobody can take away from hima and he already lived a life of being a bastard without a place in the world under the guise of that secret. Dany for better or worse got to spend her life proudly proclaiming and using her name to get every advantage she could out of it. Jorah and Barristan woudn't have followed her if she didn't have her last name. Illyrio would have never cared enough to give her three dragon eggs and married her off to a Khal if it weren't for her last name. She wouldn't have a single justification to do anything she's done if not for her last name. Jon has the same last name and he was denied all of that, and all he wants to do is let the people closest to him know who he is. 

[Tyrion1991]

10 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Regardless of her purpose in life, it's not her place to ask Jon Snow to continually hide who he really is for her sake. Imo it makes her look worse that she's so married to an entitlement of the throne that she's desperate for her only living relative to pretend he's someone he's not just because of the possibility that people might want place him there over her. 

Why is what the throne means to her more important than what Jon's identity means to him? Her family lost the throne. She's no more entitled to it than any other would be king or queen anymore. Jon will always be the son of Rheagar and Lyanna. That's something nobody can take away from hima and he already lived a life of being a bastard without a place in the world under the guise of that secret. Dany for better or worse got to spend her life proudly proclaiming and using her name to get every advantage she could out of it. Jorah and Barristan woudn't have followed her if she didn't have her last name. Illyrio would have never cared enough to give her three dragon eggs and married her off to a Khal if it weren't for her last name. She wouldn't have a single justification to do anything she's done if not for her last name. Jon has the same last name and he was denied all of that, and all he wants to do is let the people closest to him know who he is. 

 

Its a legitimate fear. Sansa and Varys immediately try to overthrow her. That puts her life directly at risk. It’s selfish for him to put his feelings over that.

Hmm, people calling you a nasty name as son to Ned Stark versus being a beggar with an abusive brother who gets thrown out of her childhood home. Yes he had it so hard. 

Because his identity isn’t important. It’s a plot device designed to create discord between him and Dany. Versus 7 seasons of showing her as a hero. 

Hell I laughed when Alister Thorne knocked him down a few pegs and called him a bastard. Jon’s a joke. George thinks he can have this Aragon cosplayer and expects me to automatically like him? He does nothing to impress me or earn my sympathy. He’s a joke who deserves every misfortune which befell him.

Jorah did not love her because of her last name. He was at the Trident and Knighted by Robert.

 

[Apoplexy]

1 hour ago, Tyrion1991 said:

The blood claim Jon has means nothing to me and it shouldn’t mean anything to the audience.

It doesn't mean much to me either. But in the show universe, it's an important detail and shouldve been addressed as such. Instead, they just had dany repeating she wants to be queen, and hence Jon should not speak up about his claim. She was in the wrong the minute she demanded that Jon lie ( by omission ) for her.

1 hour ago, Tyrion1991 said:

She’s a hero and she’s made the sacrifices to get there. Jon has not. He’s being shunted onto it because his redhead sister doesn’t like blondes and because he has some meat between his legs.

I agree she has made sacrifices, but that does not justify her asking Jon to make sacrifices for her benefit. I dislike comparing hardships and whether or not Jon has suffered doesnt matter (although I think he has). He has the better claim. 

As much as I loathe patriarchy, lying and imposing on someone else isn't the solution.

1 hour ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Him not wanting the throne is irrelevant. It shows that he’s an insipid and vacuous fool. It’s not a virtue. It’s contemptible. Never mind that he’s lying, I recall in the books him wishing that he was the Young Dragon. You’re saying he didn’t revel in being declared King of the North? I say that he hasn’t been tested or went through what Dany went through. He could easily be broken if you truly him through the crucible. So it’s not a fair comparison.

If it's irrelevant, then Jon has the better claim by law. I don't agree with the law, but that's how it will be, if what Jon wants is irrelevant, regardless of their relative capabilities to rule.

1 hour ago, Tyrion1991 said:

It is not damage control to go blabbing it to Sansa. Coming from anyone else it’s gossip. From him and Bran it’s a certainty.

I never said it was. And the secret was going to come out regardless.

1 hour ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Because she’s awesome. Like, really, why is she not being compared to Visenya? Why aren’t the bands singing of this amazing person and all the crazy stuff she’s done? You remember Arya talking about her with Tywin in Harrenhal about Visenya? You’re telling me nobody in Westeros think “wow this person sounds amazing”. In the opening chapter of AFFC you have people gossiping about her exploits in Qaarth. She would be Queen on the grounds of all the amazing feats that she’s done. Those aren’t empty titles. She really is the Breaker of Chains, the Khaleesi of the Dothraki and faced off against the Night King. She brought dragons back into the world by walking through the flames.It requires massive contrivance that nobody in Westeros thinks that this person is awesome. People have been declared Gods in the real world for far, far less than what Dany has achieved.

Yet she is a foreigner. Xenophobia runs deep in westeros. And as for Visenya, she has conquered westeros with her siblings. Ppeople had no option but to fall in line. Dany's armies are weak and she only has one dragon.

1 hour ago, Tyrion1991 said:

What has Jon achieved in comparison? He  almost lost the Battle of the Bastards until the Vale saved him. He was Lord commander for a month before getting stabbed and abandoning his oath. He has achieved absolutely nothing to warrant people liking him to the extent that Varys implies. People in the Reach and Westeros should not care about Jon Snow.

He has a better claim, he is male and he isn't an outsider. That counts for a lot in westeros. People were never going to just accept Dany, she would need to be tactful about it. Whatever else may have helped her retain the throne, Jon lying for her was never going to.

[RYShh]

31 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Regardless of her purpose in life, it's not her place to ask Jon Snow to continually hide who he really is for her sake. Imo it makes her look worse that she's so married to an entitlement of the throne that she's desperate for her only living relative to pretend he's someone he's not just because of the possibility that people might want place him there over her. 

Why is what the throne means to her more important than what Jon's identity means to him? Her family lost the throne. She's no more entitled to it than any other would be king or queen anymore. Jon will always be the son of Rheagar and Lyanna. That's something nobody can take away from hima and he already lived a life of being a bastard without a place in the world under the guise of that secret. Dany for better or worse got to spend her life proudly proclaiming and using her name to get every advantage she could out of it. Jorah and Barristan woudn't have followed her if she didn't have her last name. Illyrio would have never cared enough to give her three dragon eggs and married her off to a Khal if it weren't for her last name. She wouldn't have a single justification to do anything she's done if not for her last name. Jon has the same last name and he was denied all of that, and all he wants to do is let the people closest to him know who he is. 

Totally agree. Great post. 

[lancerman]

Just now, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Its a legitimate fear. Sansa and Varys immediately try to overthrow her. That puts her life directly at risk. It’s selfish for him to put his feelings over that.

Hmm, people calling you a nasty name as son to Ned Stark versus being a beggar with an abusive brother who gets thrown out of her childhood home. Yes he had it so hard. 

Because his identity isn’t important. It’s a plot device designed to create discord between him and Dany. Versus 7 seasons of showing her as a hero. 

Hell I laughed when Alister Thorne knocked him down a few pegs and called him a bastard. Jon’s a joke. George thinks he can have this Aragon cosplayer and expects me to automatically like him? He does nothing to impress me or earn my sympathy. He’s a joke who deserves every misfortune which befell him.

Jorah did not love her because of her last name. He was at the Trident and Knighted by Robert.

 

No it's not a legitimate fear. Her life is at risk for no other reason than because she decided she wanted to take the Iron the Throne. If she wasn't vying for it, she would never be in any danger. She literally could have sold her dragons for a fortune and lived the life of arguably the wealthiest women in the world and would have been safe and wanted for nothing. Any danger she is ever in is a result of her bid for the throne, which yes makes any rival claimants a potential risk. She could withdraw her claim at any time and be perfectly safe. 

Why is Dany wanting the throne more important than Jon's identity? You're framing far too sympathetic for Dany to make it look like she is entitled to something. Dany didn't get kicked out of her home. Her dad was a horrible monarch who got kicked out before she was ever born. She's no different than any other child of any other great house that was stripped of lands and titles. And she wasn't a beggar, her brother was. Her brother also could have easily decided she was dead weight and left her to die years before. Dany got a lot of privlidge from her last name. You think some peasant is going to be entertained by wealthy nobles as a child? You think Illyrio is going to care for some nobody? I'm sure every poor girl in fleabottom gets married off to a Dothraki Khal and is given three dragon eggs and has knights and kingsguard flocking to her. 

 

Jon's not being selfish. Jon at any point in this could say "actually lawfully your claim is wrong and I'm the real king, so step aside or face the entire North and Vale, and Riverlands presumably, and maybe I'll find some Dornish Princess to marry to get them as well. Oh and since Rheagar was beloved I'll be far more accepted as his son and if you oppose me, we'll label you a foreign usurper who is pretending to care about her family dynasty while trying to step over the line of succession and bringing a bunch of barbarians and dragons to destroy the kingdom". As dickish as that is, it would be lawfully correct and Jon would be entitled to press that stance if he wanted. He's not. 

This is about spoiled Dany being upset that her own ambitions have a speedbump. 

[Techmaester]

If Jon was going to pull that, she should have immediately pulled her forces from the North and let them all die right? Ultimately her contribution fundamentally entitles her to the IT more than anyone else in the series. Arya killed the NK sure but the entire setup rested on the contributions of the rest of the fighters, Danys forces probably making up the significant majority.

Fundamentally it was a betrayal(the first of a line of them) on Jons part, no question about it. 

 

[Apoplexy]

39 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

If Jon was going to pull that, she should have immediately pulled her forces from the North and let them all die right? Ultimately her contribution fundamentally entitles her to the IT more than anyone else in the series. Arya killed the NK sure but the entire setup rested on the contributions of the rest of the fighters, Danys forces probably making up the significant majority.

Fundamentally it was a betrayal(the first of a line of them) on Jons part, no question about it. 

 

As much as Dany 's forces were needed to defeat the NK, it doesn't solve the question of Jon having a better claim. And Jon isn't completely incompetent, and has done a lot in his lifetime. And he didn't have 3 dragons guarding him.

I don't get why is what Dany wants more important than Jon's legal right? I'm not claiming he deserves the throne more, but Dany asking him to just set his claim aside for her was just unreasonable. Jon went back on his promise, sure, but betrayal is a strong word.

[Techmaester]

30 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

As much as Dany 's forces were needed to defeat the NK, it doesn't solve the question of Jon having a better claim. And Jon isn't completely incompetent, and has done a lot in his lifetime. And he didn't have 3 dragons guarding him.

I don't get why is what Dany wants more important than Jon's legal right? I'm not claiming he deserves the throne more, but Dany asking him to just set his claim aside for her was just unreasonable. Jon went back on his promise, sure, but betrayal is a strong word.

Normally when you have something done for you by someone(as in them saving you from death or sending their army to fight dead people), normally you reciprocate that favor in some way(as in not attempt to destroy their entire purpose of being in Westeros).

We just have to disagree, Jon not setting it aside for her was fundamentally unreasonable and a betrayal. Even more so if he "dunt wunt eht" - what was the point?  Just to stir the pot? Jon was either an idiot or he wanted to cause trouble to begin with. 

I have no problem with Jon staking claim, I have a problem with him pretending to care about Dany during the process after immensely benefiting from her contributions.  

 

[Rose of Red Lake]

I think it's just an instance of a toxic situation - it's not "tragic lovers" or whatever b.s. the show was trying to pull.

It's not even a real relationship. 

If Dany really cared for jon she would have been concerned about how this identity crisis is affecting him.

If Jon really cared for dany he would never have killed her and also wouldn't be that bothered by the incest

[Apoplexy]

11 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

Normally when you have something done for you by someone(as in them saving you from death or sending their army to fight dead people), normally you reciprocate that favor in some way(as in not attempt to destroy their entire purpose of being in Westeros).

We just have to disagree, Jon not setting it aside for her was fundamentally unreasonable and a betrayal. Even more so if he "dunt wunt eht" - what was the point?  Just to stir the pot? Jon was either an idiot or he wanted to cause trouble to begin with. 

I have no problem with Jon staking claim, I have a problem with him pretending to care about Dany during the process after immensely benefiting from her contributions.  

 

I suppose we disagree.

Imo, dany benefited from Jon backing her just as much as she helped Jon. And as for Jon telling his cousins about his parentage, it was indeed him being stupid. He wanted advice since he had begun doubting Dany, and failed to see that the secret would not be kept.

[Apoplexy]

37 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think it's just an instance of a toxic situation - it's not "tragic lovers" or whatever b.s. the show was trying to pull.

It's not even a real relationship. 

If Dany really cared for jon she would have been concerned about how this identity crisis is affecting him.

If Jon really cared for dany he would never have killed her and also wouldn't be that bothered by the incest

I agre e, the show handled the situation pretty badly.

Dany didn't care at all about Jon's identity crisis, which was weird considering she was portrayed as empathetic in prior seasons. And as for Jon, he didn't even try to reason with Dany. He just stabbed her. If he had tried (and failed) at convincing Dany to abandon her conquer the world idea, the stabbing would've been more justifiable.

[lancerman]

1 hour ago, Techmaester said:

Normally when you have something done for you by someone(as in them saving you from death or sending their army to fight dead people), normally you reciprocate that favor in some way(as in not attempt to destroy their entire purpose of being in Westeros).

We just have to disagree, Jon not setting it aside for her was fundamentally unreasonable and a betrayal. Even more so if he "dunt wunt eht" - what was the point?  Just to stir the pot? Jon was either an idiot or he wanted to cause trouble to begin with. 

I have no problem with Jon staking claim, I have a problem with him pretending to care about Dany during the process after immensely benefiting from her contributions.  

 

The important point you're missing is that Jon did do her favor. His favor was that he took a bunch of Northmen down South to fight her war for her. 

The othe point you're missing is Jon didn't stake a claim.  He told his family members who he really was. It's unreasonable for Dany to ask him otherwise. 

[Techmaester]

37 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I agree, the show handled the situation pretty badly.

Dany didn't care at all about Jon's identity crisis, which was weird considering she was portrayed as empathetic in prior seasons. And as for Jon, he didn't even try to reason with Dany. He just stabbed her. If he had tried (and failed) at convincing Dany to abandon her conquer the world idea, the stabbing would've been more justifiable.

I agree also, I mean I would say Jon shanking her is way worse on the spectrum of things you can do to someone you're in a relationship with but she should have immediately said they should marry solving both. But Jon was already not into it at that point(guess that's an expectation D&D couldn't subvert). 

[Techmaester]

35 minutes ago, lancerman said:

The important point you're missing is that Jon did do her favor. His favor was that he took a bunch of Northmen down South to fight her war for her. 

The othe point you're missing is Jon didn't stake a claim.  He told his family members who he really was. It's unreasonable for Dany to ask him otherwise. 

Last I remembered the North was still at war with the Lannisters and Cersie, they were just losing(I suppose one could say they lost). It wasn't only a war for Dany, Sansa and the rest of the North had wanted it a long time.

Clearly if Jon was wanting to war for her he wouldn't have murdered her at the end when she talked about expanding their empire(and based upon what happened, he wasn't needed and the people gained from the north are probably way less than what Dany lost fighting the dead - basically it was a shit deal for her made out of her love for Jon).

We have different definitions of unreasonable or what's expected of someone.