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Jon killing Dany doesn’t work for me


Tyrion1991

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11 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

He did shank her after she massacred an entire city. I'm not saying that was the ideal way to deal with the situation, but the show did have dany behaving pretty erratically. Working under the assumption that dany was indeed on the rampage and was going to murder civilians all across westeros to achieve her goal, I dont blame Jon for doing what he did.

He was a traitor, kinslayer and oathbreaker, who should have been hanged from the city walls.

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6 minutes ago, SeanF said:

He was a traitor, kinslayer and oathbreaker, who should have been hanged from the city walls.

He was very much like Jaime Lannister during Roberts Rebellion. The worst thing they could have done was kill Jon. He had just fought and defeated the Night King and many in the North still saw him as their King (including Sansa), not to mention the Wildlings love him and the Vale followed him into battle. Killing Jon would probably have caused another war much like killing Jaime after he stabbed Aerys in the back would have probably caused a war.

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10 hours ago, Techmaester said:

No, Jons last interaction with Dany was terrible - there was no conversation, Jon didn't ask anything directly or confront her about anything she did. 

That's the scene. He confronts her about killing prisoners and burning people (3:50 onwards). Maybe you missed that part?

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1 minute ago, KingMudd said:

That's the scene. He confronts her about killing prisoners and burning people. Maybe you missed that part?

A sovereign is acting well within her rights by executing prisoners.

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Just now, SeanF said:

A sovereign is acting well within her rights by executing prisoners.

I wasn't saying she isn't. The person I quoted said Jon didn't confront her about anything and quite clearly he did.

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2 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

I don't know about the "only wants an easy life etc" part, but your last paragraph seems possible. It’s ironic then that the same person who talked him into his final act was the same one who had once said "Death is so terribly final, while life is full of possibilities."

You can't blame him for that come on! He kind of forgot!

 

There are 2 problems with this whole Jon kills Dany:

1) Dany didn't NEED to destroy KL: 

They surrendered, and her argument "Cersei used them against me" only shows bad writing. Because she had won

2) Jon "tried" to talk with her, when she was still on "shock":

when you are mad/angry you can't be reasonned, eyes, ears and brains don't work the same way.

The only help you can get is getting appeased. After that, we can try and talk some sense into you.

And that is Jon's mistake. He should have behaved differently. Patience is the key with angry or mad (mad as in angry anyways)  

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10 minutes ago, Targaryen Peas said:

You can't blame him for that come on! He kind of forgot!

 

There are 2 problems with this whole Jon kills Dany:

1) Dany didn't NEED to destroy KL: 

They surrendered, and her argument "Cersei used them against me" only shows bad writing. Because she had won. 

2) Jon "tried" to talk with her, when she was still on "shock":

when you are mad/angry you can't be reasonned, eyes, ears and brains don't work the same way.

The only help you can get is getting appeased. After that, we can try and talk some sense into you.

And that is Jon's mistake. He should have behaved differently. Patience is the key with angry or mad (mad as in angry anyways)  

It would make sense if she'd burned down the Red Keep, killing civilians in the process, but that would not have provided any justification for stabbing her.

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2 hours ago, Targaryen Peas said:

You can't blame him for that come on! He kind of forgot!

 

There are 2 problems with this whole Jon kills Dany:

1) Dany didn't NEED to destroy KL: 

They surrendered, and her argument "Cersei used them against me" only shows bad writing. Because she had won

2) Jon "tried" to talk with her, when she was still on "shock":

when you are mad/angry you can't be reasonned, eyes, ears and brains don't work the same way.

The only help you can get is getting appeased. After that, we can try and talk some sense into you.

And that is Jon's mistake. He should have behaved differently. Patience is the key with angry or mad (mad as in angry anyways)  

Perhaps I'm misreading, but isn't the point that she is "mad", and not necessarily just mad as in angry, but insane?  Of course her argument is wrong, she is insane in that moment.  She's trying to justify something that in her mind she has no real way of justifying.

And Jon in that conversation is trying to see where her head is at.  He has conflicted feelings about killing her and wants her to show him that there's still some good in there, maybe show extreme remorse over what she did.  But he doesn't get that.  Instead she shows this flat and meaningless "justification" that proves she doesn't feel real remorse.  Then not only that but Dany makes it worse by promising more violence and insanity (you can see Jon's face kind of drop once she says "I know what is right" and "it doesn't matter what other people think is right" ((paraphrasing)).

I think again the major problem here comes before Dany goes mad...there was just not nearly enough work done to establish it well enough.  But the things that come afterwards make sense to me.

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10 hours ago, SeanF said:

He was a traitor, kinslayer and oathbreaker, who should have been hanged from the city walls.

I don't agree he was any of those things except a kinslayer, but let's say he was all of those. The fact remains, he killed a mad tyrant. 

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10 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I don't agree he was any of those things except a kinslayer, but let's say he was all of those. The fact remains, he killed a mad tyrant. 

He killed his closest living relative and as far as I know, the last Targaryen. The magnitude of his crime against his family cannot be overstated. I hate his character more and more it's kind of astonishing how bad he is.

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1 minute ago, Techmaester said:

He killed his closest living relative and as far as I know, the last Targaryen. The magnitude of his crime against his family cannot be overstated. I hate his character more and more it's kind of astonishing how bad he is.

Is the life of one family member more important than those of possibly millions of people whom said family could have massacred? Jon's choice was similar to Jaime's when he killed Aerys (except he wasn't related to aerys)

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2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Is the life of one family member more important than those of possibly millions of people whom said family could have massacred? Jon's choice was similar to Jaime's when he killed Aerys (except he wasn't related to aerys)

Well as we wrote about before the outcome wasn't guaranteed. I can only say that if myself and my Aunt were the last of our family line(and apparently an actual separate people with magical abilities), surviving a war sent upon us by my parents killers there is no way I would I kill her regardless of what she did as it would guarantee an end to us. I would do what I could to prevent violence but I wouldn't kill her. That's crossing a line for me that's not acceptable. 

(Also considering, I would probably try really, really hard to get a kid out of her but I digress.....)

Guess I am a Lannister at heart.

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4 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

I don't agree he was any of those things except a kinslayer, but let's say he was all of those. The fact remains, he killed a mad tyrant. 

He swore allegiance to Dany who was his Queen. And, his closest living relative.  Those things are supposed to matter in Westeros (kinslaying, especially is the crime most detested by gods and men).

I agree with you that Daenerys was insane, by the end.  She could not be allowed to rule.  But given his oaths, his blood tie, and the fact that she could not be held morally responsible for her actions, by reason of her state of mind, the morally correct course of action was to attempt to take her into custody.  Difficult, yes, but he had thousands of soldiers of his own so a coup would not have been impossible.

 

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2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

He swore allegiance to Dany who was his Queen. And, his closest living relative.  Those things are supposed to matter in Westeros (kinslaying, especially is the crime most detested by gods and men).

I agree with you that Daenerys was insane, by the end.  She could not be allowed to rule.  But given his oaths, his blood tie, and the fact that she could not be held morally responsible for her actions, by reason of her state of mind, the correct course of action was to attempt to take her into custody.

 

OMG it's SeanF :o 

But I have to disagree, she wan't insane, she was mad/angry but not insane. At least not in the show, not now

She wanted to see the world (KL) burn for all she suffered, but that's all. There was no madness. A lot of people would have sadly done the same. 

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2 hours ago, Targaryen Peas said:

OMG it's SeanF :o 

But I have to disagree, she wan't insane, she was mad/angry but not insane. At least not in the show, not now

She wanted to see the world (KL) burn for all she suffered, but that's all. There was no madness. A lot of people would have sadly done the same. 

Do we know each other?

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7 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Is the life of one family member more important than those of possibly millions of people whom said family could have massacred? Jon's choice was similar to Jaime's when he killed Aerys (except he wasn't related to aerys)

I'd be fully on board with this, as you set it in this particular sentence, if he hadn't almost walked out on Tyrion before the argument about his sisters was presented.

Then you can place a more personal cast on the 'What about everybody else? They don't get to choose.' conversation.

Then, it's a decision on who lives and who dies, made by Jon, based on his emotional attachments.

The duty to save the world isn't as great a motivation as saving 'some people', his dear ones.

Else people wouldn't put so much emphasis on how it was the 'from Winterfell to Dorne' bit that decided him.

He didn't decide untill he was sure her plans included his sisters being killed for not submitting.

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22 hours ago, Techmaester said:

She said it was necessary, not that she didn't do it and her statement about Cersie isn't wrong.... Obviously the question to ask is why? And point out alternatives. Show her the damage personally. Give her time to process and come down from a possible mental breakdown. Dany didn't torch the city for fun, there was a sequence of events leading to it. 

Regardless of who else would have killed her I think the only way Jon could have justified his action is if she was moments from torching Winterfell. Even then he could have clearly stood  in strong direct opposition instead. A hero dies with honor is better than living shanking a girl you're kissing.

I obviously feel Jon had a greater obligation to his queen/aunt/gf than to a population he had no connection to being used as human shields by an enemy that died during the conflict, we may just have to disagree on values. Ultimately Dany was always going to go on a campaign of conquest, the question should have been how to get her to reduce causalities. In retrospect her speech was perfectly reasonable.

 

So lets say Jon and Daeny went to another city afterwards, say gulltown in the Vale. Daeny gives her speech about breaking the wheel and the city says nope, not interested before Daeny proceeds to torch and/or sack the place. Do you expect Jon to sit there and not do or say anything about it?

What right does Daeny have to expect that of anyone? Only a tyrant expects such blind obedience.

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