Jon killing Dany doesn’t work for me

[King Jon Snow Stark]

8 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

In some ways I think maybe it's a positive thing for people. The shitty ending forcing people to stop obsessing about a fantasy world living in a guys head which they have no control over instead of focusing on their real life problems.

Hmm. I’m probably going to pick up the books after I move in June. Mostly for decorating my new office. I might read them. Haha! 

[Techmaester]

1 hour ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Hmm. I’m probably going to pick up the books after I move in June. Mostly for decorating my new office. I might read them. Haha! 

Maybe it's having the opposite effect, maybe the ending was a conscious effort to make people argue about it. They clearly like turning screws in people.

If we had a satisfying ending we wouldnt be here arguing about it. But the problem is, I'm not going to be paying again to be subverted.

[digiFemme]

The problem isn’t that Jon killed her...it’s the fact that they set the story and characters up so that he had to do it. There were so many better ways they could have depicted her descent not some kind of pavlovian horror. This shows that they didn’t care for her character as much as- say, the lannisters. Fine, you are free to pick your own favorites but if you are scriptwriter adapting someone else’s story and not your own, at least be objective about these characters.

[Kaapstad]

7 hours ago, Techmaester said:

You would think a guy kidnapped and brainwashed his whole life into thinking he was Neds mistake and treated as second class wouldn't be so quick to reject his aunt and true heritage nor would he be so committed to the Starks(this ignoring of course how they helped kills his father).

Another completely absurd character decision that insults both the viewers and the character himself.

If anything learning his identity will make him love his Stark family even more.It was done to protect him and it worked. Also unlike Dany, his Stark family treated him as equals not subservient to them. In Jon and Dany’s relationship she kept implying she was the one in charge. The moment she threatened Sansa, he should have seen her for what she was 

[Kaapstad]

2 hours ago, Techmaester said:

We payed for it, practically speaking there is some degree of obligation to make it not feel like complete garbage to most people. The end result will simply be people not watching anything made by him in the future.

In some ways I think maybe it's a positive thing for people. The shitty ending forcing people to stop obsessing about a fantasy world living in a guys head which they have no control over instead of focusing on their real life problems.

(I admit I will probably never find out I have a long lost super hot aunt who wants to reform the world with me but damn, it makes me more motivated to find an IRL Dany with a similar fiery and aggressive personality).  

It wasn’t even an ending. We don’t really know where everyone ended up at the end as there is no epilogue. Will Arya return or die? Is Jon at the wall or living with the Wildlings? Will House Stark and Lannister go extinct? What happens to Dario? Does meereen fall back to the slavers? Will Jon marry? This is the last time we are going to see the characters. Surely nothing wrong in showing us their final endgame  

I want some straight up confirmation, not hints and symbolism which can be taken any way you want. 

[Techmaester]

33 minutes ago, Kaapstad said:

If anything learning his identity will make him love his Stark family even more.It was done to protect him and it worked. Also unlike Dany, his Stark family treated him as equals not subservient to them. In Jon and Dany’s relationship she kept implying she was the one in charge. The moment she threatened Sansa, he should have seen her for what she was 

It was done to hide him from who and what he was and deny him his identity(in fact, how can people go from one hand saying Dany telling Jon to hide his identity is wrong as it's destroying him to be a bastard and on the other hand say he shouldn't make any decisions based upon it?). If you think he was treated equal you're not remembering much. It was so bad he was actually going to sign up for being stuck on an icy wall as a celibate his whole life filed with the bottom of society. Disgusting. 

Dany was in charge as Jon supposedly wanted it when he pledged loyalty. Sansa had an obligation to kneel for her Queen. But I agree Dany should have further emphasized Jons/Aegons heritage to him. I'm disappointed I didn't get to see him wear Targaryen armor and banner during the sacking of Kings Landing, would have been very satisfying.  Sadly considering how the show went it wasn't going to happen, maybe in fanfiction. 

[Kaapstad]

51 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

Dany was in charge as Jon supposedly wanted it when he pledged loyalty. Sansa had an obligation to kneel for her Queen. But I agree Dany should have further emphasized Jons/Aegons heritage to him. I'm disappointed I didn't get to see him wear Targaryen armor and banner during the sacking of Kings Landing, would have been very satisfying.  Sadly considering how the show went it wasn't going to happen, maybe in fanfiction. 

It was necessary as if Catelyn and the others treated him warmly, everyone would notice something was wrong. News would spread and before long people would begin poking around and would know the truth. As it is people were finding it unbelievable that the honourable Ned even had a bastard. Sansa couldn’t keep the secret for 20 mins. If his family knew about it, Catelyn would probably have traded him in to the Lannisters for her daughters. Ned told him he would tell him his identity after he joined the Nights Watch as that way once the news spread, Robert can’t kill him. In addition, Ned had promised Lyanna he would tell no one. No one means no one. If he tells Jon, then the next time Catelyn treats him badly, he could blurt out his identity in anger.

The difference between Dany’s treatment of Jon and the Starks is that Dany asking him to live a lie is for her own selfish interests. She is manipulating him by threatening his family and asking him to live a lie but still wants to have sex with him. The Starks lying to Jon was in his own interests.  

[Techmaester]

6 hours ago, Kaapstad said:

It was necessary as if Catelyn and the others treated him warmly, everyone would notice something was wrong. News would spread and before long people would begin poking around and would know the truth. As it is people were finding it unbelievable that the honourable Ned even had a bastard. Sansa couldn’t keep the secret for 20 mins. If his family knew about it, Catelyn would probably have traded him in to the Lannisters for her daughters. Ned told him he would tell him his identity after he joined the Nights Watch as that way once the news spread, Robert can’t kill him. In addition, Ned had promised Lyanna he would tell no one. No one means no one. If he tells Jon, then the next time Catelyn treats him badly, he could blurt out his identity in anger.

The difference between Dany’s treatment of Jon and the Starks is that Dany asking him to live a lie is for her own selfish interests. She is manipulating him by threatening his family and asking him to live a lie but still wants to have sex with him. The Starks lying to Jon was in his own interests.  

It had nothing to do with Bobby B killing him and everything to do with Ned attempting to end the Targaryens. The Starks lying to Jon was in their interests as it prevented him from doing the only thing any remotely driven individual would have done: attempt to reclaim the throne. It's clear everyone is manipulating Jon during this season, as you pointed out Sansa couldn't keep the secret because it benefited her to attempt to cause disunity. Dany wasn't asking Jon to do something that wasn't forced on him his whole life by someone else already, her actions were far less evil than Neds as they weren't revolving around attempting to kill off half of Jons heritage.

We obviously have fundamentally different ideals so I don't think we will come to a resolution in this discussion. 

[KingMudd]

10 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

It had nothing to do with Bobby B killing him and everything to do with Ned attempting to end the Targaryens. The Starks lying to Jon was in their interests as it prevented him from doing the only thing any remotely driven individual would have done: attempt to reclaim the throne. It's clear everyone is manipulating Jon during this season, as you pointed out Sansa couldn't keep the secret because it benefited her to attempt to cause disunity. Dany wasn't asking Jon to do something that wasn't forced on him his whole life by someone else already, her actions were far less evil than Neds as they weren't revolving around attempting to kill off half of Jons heritage.

We obviously have fundamentally different ideals so I don't think we will come to a resolution in this discussion. 

You have completely misunderstood Ned as a character. Ned loved Jon as much as his own children. He didn't want another war and wanted to protect Jon. He couldn't care less about ending the Targaryens becasue if he did he would have been on board with what Tywin done to Aegon and Rhaenys and he would have been fine with assassinating Daenerys. Throughout the time we see Ned he has given us no reason to think he wanted the Targaryens extinct. You are completely making this up to fit your own view.

[KingMudd]

10 hours ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Hmm. I’m probably going to pick up the books after I move in June. Mostly for decorating my new office. I might read them. Haha! 

You should read them. They are a great read.

[chatty83]

On ‎5‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 8:18 AM, JagLover said:

I think the deeper problem is that it doesn't feel particularly real or earned. Conquerors in history didn't tend to be killed off by their friends they were left to finish what they started, no matter what the cost to the rest of humanity.

It introduces an element of fairy tale to a story that was always so realistic. A better ending, IMO, would for Dany to have ended up on the IT, but most of the audience to have turned against her. A warning that history's conquerors were usually not very nice people by modern standards.  

Maybes not conquerors as such but a lot of people who took the throne did do it with backers who they fell out with and ended up battling, in fact it seemed to happen on repeat. Pretty much the whole saga of War of the Roses was someone staking a claim to the throne, someone backing them, conquering and taking the throne, not fulfilling the wishes of the backer, backer goes to war with them with other backers, takes the throne, doesn't fulfil the wishes of their backers......repeat.

But whilst its based on history, its still fantasy, I do think if he finishes the books martin can do a similar ending and itll work because he'll do a good job of writing it, filling in the blanks and creating the story and tension to do so that the show just missed out or assumed didn't need to be told.

Conquerors are never nice people nor are they now, the whole King/ruler set up dictates you end up bad even if you have good intentions because you can please anyone and in those times the way to solve that was usually violence. Just about even British King/Queen come out despised at the end of their rule, ven if they were popular. Some of the biggest conquerors tend to have a really bad name despite taking their people to new heights and success as a country - see Alexander, Genghis, Cesar, Attila etc I think the point of the show ultimately is that it never ends well.

[King Jon Snow Stark]

10 minutes ago, KingMudd said:

You should read them. They are a great read.

I am thinking about getting one at a time and not the box set. I don't think I would read them if I had all 5. They would end up being decoration for real. 

 

[KingMudd]

7 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

I am thinking about getting one at a time and not the box set. I don't think I would read them if I had all 5. They would end up being decoration for real. 

 

That's what I done. Had A Game of Thrones for a while, read it and then bought A Clash of Kings and read that, and so on. It means you can read other stuff in between if you get burnt out. I think if I had all the book before reading them it would make me think I have to read them all one after the other.

[Techmaester]

31 minutes ago, KingMudd said:

You have completely misunderstood Ned as a character. Ned loved Jon as much as his own children. He didn't want another war and wanted to protect Jon. He couldn't care less about ending the Targaryens becasue if he did he would have been on board with what Tywin done to Aegon and Rhaenys and he would have been fine with assassinating Daenerys. Throughout the time we see Ned he has given us no reason to think he wanted the Targaryens extinct. You are completely making this up to fit your own view.

He loved Jon so much he would only tell Jon his ancestry if Jon agreed to be a celibate on a wall of ice guaranteeing he would never threaten Bobby Bs rule or reproduce?

Ned was simply balancing his sisters wishes against his own goals and this was his best compromise. It wasn't for Jon. Nothing the Starks did was for Jon, at least Dany he was getting something from.

[KingMudd]

Just now, Techmaester said:

He loved Jon so much he would only tell Jon his ancestry if Jon agreed to be a celibate on a wall of ice guaranteeing he would never threaten Bobby Bs rule or reproduce?

Ned didn't want Jon to join the wall. That was Benjen and Catelyn.

[Kaapstad]

5 hours ago, Techmaester said:

It had nothing to do with Bobby B killing him and everything to do with Ned attempting to end the Targaryens. The Starks lying to Jon was in their interests as it prevented him from doing the only thing any remotely driven individual would have done: attempt to reclaim the throne. It's clear everyone is manipulating Jon during this season, as you pointed out Sansa couldn't keep the secret because it benefited her to attempt to cause disunity. Dany wasn't asking Jon to do something that wasn't forced on him his whole life by someone else already, her actions were far less evil than Neds as they weren't revolving around attempting to kill off half of Jons heritage.

We obviously have fundamentally different ideals so I don't think we will come to a resolution in this discussion.  

There is no difference of opinion here. You clearly don't understand what happened

1.Lyanna told Ned not to tell anyone. Tell no one means just that. No one. You think it was easy for Ned to face Catelyn and besmirch his honour forever? Any coward could have ratted out the secret and be done with it. If Ned wanted to end the Tarygaryens, all he had to do was tell Catelyn and the secret would spread and Jon would be killed. There is no possible way to reveal his identity without severe risk of life at that time. If he told only Jon, then it would only be so long before Theon's and Catelyn's taunts would anger him and cause him to blurt out the secret. And he can't tell anyone else as Lyanna forbade him to as her dying wish

2. Sansa didn't cause disunity as the disunity was already happening before she even revealed it. Dany was finding Jon an obstacle to the throne. She had no authority to it and was forcing Jon to live a lie just so she can rule unchallenged. A person who does something like this isn't going to end up being a good queen anyway. You could say revealing his secret merely accelerated the inevitable to happen.

The consequences are really very clear

Ned tells everyone who Jon is----> Jon dies

Jon tells everyone his identity now------> Dany has no right to the throne and Jon is the rightful King. Is it any surprise Dany asks him to stay silent? The secret benefit's no one but Dany. In Ned's case, keeping it a secret keeps Jon alive.

 

 

[Kaapstad]

4 hours ago, Techmaester said:

He loved Jon so much he would only tell Jon his ancestry if Jon agreed to be a celibate on a wall of ice guaranteeing he would never threaten Bobby Bs rule or reproduce?

Ned was simply balancing his sisters wishes against his own goals and this was his best compromise. It wasn't for Jon. Nothing the Starks did was for Jon, at least Dany he was getting something from.

Once he joins the Watch, Robert can't kill him legally if his identity spreads. 

[It_spelt_Magalhaes]

2 minutes ago, Kaapstad said:

Once he joins the Watch, Robert can't kill him legally if his identity spreads. 

Well, to mirror the idea that, in rl medieval times, Dany's advisors would've simply ventured an accident could happen and bye bye prospective claimant?

Even in the show we saw a pretty nice fellow taking a trek to the Wall to get rid of an inconvenience.

Oopsie.

[Techmaester]

1 hour ago, Kaapstad said:

There is no difference of opinion here. You clearly don't understand what happened

1.Lyanna told Ned not to tell anyone. Tell no one means just that. No one. You think it was easy for Ned to face Catelyn and besmirch his honour forever? Any coward could have ratted out the secret and be done with it. If Ned wanted to end the Tarygaryens, all he had to do was tell Catelyn and the secret would spread and Jon would be killed. There is no possible way to reveal his identity without severe risk of life at that time. If he told only Jon, then it would only be so long before Theon's and Catelyn's taunts would anger him and cause him to blurt out the secret. And he can't tell anyone else as Lyanna forbade him to as her dying wish

2. Sansa didn't cause disunity as the disunity was already happening before she even revealed it. Dany was finding Jon an obstacle to the throne. She had no authority to it and was forcing Jon to live a lie just so she can rule unchallenged. A person who does something like this isn't going to end up being a good queen anyway. You could say revealing his secret merely accelerated the inevitable to happen.

The consequences are really very clear

Ned tells everyone who Jon is----> Jon dies

Jon tells everyone his identity now------> Dany has no right to the throne and Jon is the rightful King. Is it any surprise Dany asks him to stay silent? The secret benefit's no one but Dany. In Ned's case, keeping it a secret keeps Jon alive.

 

 

The question was never if he was planning on killing Jon, clearly he wasn't going to based upon his sister. The question was did he purposefully conceal Jon's ancestry in an attempt to stop Jon from challenging Bobby's rule and continuing on the Targaryens and I think it's clear he did. 

Sansa revealing the information is an explicit attempt to cause problems, we both know it. You can't have it both ways, either Jon was so distraught over being a bastard, that it ate away at his identity(making Neds actions unacceptable) that he had to tell others. In which case he would obviously value it(which he didn't). Or he wouldn't care about it and thus wouldn't share it knowing the problems it would cause and the damage it would do his Aunt.

About claim, ultimately Dany had the most claim as she has both the army and the ancestry. A king without an army isn't a king.(Also we're again ignoring that Jon supposedly gave up claim and Dany decided to fight at Winterfell without any real need to..)

1 hour ago, Kaapstad said:

Once he joins the Watch, Robert can't kill him legally if his identity spreads. 

Like that stopped anyone ever.

[CrypticWeirwood]

3 hours ago, Techmaester said:

The question was never if he was planning on killing Jon, clearly he wasn't going to based upon his sister. The question was did he purposefully conceal Jon's ancestry in an attempt to stop Jon from challenging Bobby's rule and continuing on the Targaryens and I think it's clear he did. 

Kindly cite the specific evidence behind your claim.