Jump to content
Tyrion1991

Jon killing Dany doesn’t work for me

Recommended Posts

2 minutes ago, RYShh said:

You think Dany would accept otherwise? If Jon said ''I want it'' she would help Jon to win the IT? I guess we all know that's not true, Jon was only saying that so Dany can have it, he knew Dany would never give up and since he love her he didn't want to upset her.

Both Tyrion and Arya warned Jon about Dany, they said Jon has the better claim and she would kill Jon for it, Jon also knew that. She is basically a kinslayer and a usurper according to both Tyrion and Arya, can you say that they are wrong?

 

If he didn’t want to upset her then he shouldn’t have told her.

But yes, Jon could have argued that “I can restore our house. People would accept me. You can rule Essos and be loved.” It’s a dam risky strategy but he could have went with that. Instead the stoic man of such blinding virtue decided “I dunna wannit” instead of actually talking it through with Dany. Either you formally abdicate to silence the idea (take the black) or you convince Dany that you should be King and make it her decision. He’ll become King of Westeros and her Empress of Essos; his overlord. There are so many ways of approaching that question. He picked none of them because he’s a freak.

Arya is a psychopath. People in glass houses don’t throw stones. She does not get to lecture anyone on morality or have an opinion.

Tyrion? Don’t even get me started on that almighty bungler. All he had to do was provide Dany a way of winning without bloodshed. She was listening, he wasn’t providing. He bears a terrible amount of blame. So I don’t believe a man making excuses for himself. “Oh dear things have escalated because that Dany is so so crazy...if only there was another way!”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

If he didn’t want to upset her then he shouldn’t have told her.

But yes, Jon could have argued that “I can restore our house. People would accept me. You can rule Essos and be loved.” It’s a dam risky strategy but he could have went with that. Instead the stoic man of such blinding virtue decided “I dunna wannit” instead of actually talking it through with Dany. Either you formally abdicate to silence the idea (take the black) or you convince Dany that you should be King and make it her decision. He’ll become King of Westeros and her Empress of Essos; his overlord. There are so many ways of approaching that question. He picked none of them because he’s a freak.

Arya is a psychopath. People in glass houses don’t throw stones. She does not get to lecture anyone on morality or have an opinion.

Tyrion? Don’t even get me started on that almighty bungler. All he had to do was provide Dany a way of winning without bloodshed. She was listening, he wasn’t providing. He bears a terrible amount of blame. So I don’t believe a man making excuses for himself. “Oh dear things have escalated because that Dany is so so crazy...if only there was another way!”

He told her because they were lovers before I think she had to know why Jon isn't interested in her anymore,

How could Jon know Dany is a usurper and she doesn't care about the law of succession? Only after she told him to say no one, Jon says I don't want it, maybe Jon thought she would accept that and she would follow the line of succession? How could he know that without telling her?

But no, somehow she believes it's her right when she wasn't even born or raised in Westeros, and when she know Jon had better right than hers, she still insisted on ''its mine''...

If Arya is a psychopath, she would kill Sansa, but she isn't.

Tyrion knows Dany very well, and he was right to tell that to Jon, but Jon wasn't afraid of dying, only when Tyrion said that crazy bitch can kill your sisters as well, then Jon decided to stab her guts with a knife after kissing her for the last time as a goodbye.

Edited by RYShh

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Arya is a psychopath, she would kill Sansa, but she isn't.

Why would she?  Psychopathology has to deal with empathy and how it creates a willingness to kill, lie, cheat, steal, etc..  It is not some uncontrollable desire to kill.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

If Jon cared about Dany he would never have told her the truth and certainly wouldn’t have told Sansa. He knows Dany. She reacted badly when she was told about Jorah. It’s inviting disaster. He should not be that ignorant of her. He should not be that ignorant of Sansa. 

You make sacrifices for the people you love otherwise you don’t love or respect them.

How is it more shameful for him to comfort Dany knowing she’s considering killing thousands instead of letting it happen and then murdering her? If he had cared about the common people and wanted to make a stand ;) for the realm, well, the sacrifices “great” men have to make.

Only a weak man would throw up his hands and murder his lover. He was given multiple opportunities to avoid that situation and each time blundered into it. He then washed his hands of any blame or responsibility. Duty is the death of love indeed, the pretty lies murderers tell themselves.

I knew he was a loser but even I didn’t think he was that pathetic and contemptible. Greyworm should have cut his head off or Drogon should have eaten him. Instead he gets a slap on the wrists. Freak. 

The reason he told her was to test Sam's theory and to confirm if she really was as good a person as he thought. Sam tells him that Dany burned his family alive when they refused to bend the knee and asked him whether she would give up her crown like he did when she realised she didn't have a claim on the Iron throne. Jon tries it out and is hurt when Sam is proven correct by her responses. Her first response is not happiness at finding out that she is not the lone Targ and has a male nephew. She subtly tries to imply they are all lying by saying "Don't you feel its strange that the ones who mention you are a Targ are your own brother and your own friend?". Then when he still insists that its true, she still tries to deny it by saing "If that's true, you have a claim on the Iron throne". She doesn't say "I no longer have the right to the throne. I will assist you but you should take it" . That's the exact point when Jon gets a little turned off by her and stops being intimate with her. When she tells him not to tell Sansa, he insists that his sisters who he grew up with have a right to know but she tells him Sansa would tell everyone and not to tell her. He does it anyway despite knowing the consequences as probably he wanted the secret to come out sub-consciously.

Although I do agree, they did her bad in the end. He should have tried persuading her for days before taking this drastic step. But they were in a rush. No time for dialogue so he ends up killing her the same day she went "mad" . There was no other option for him though. At that point, he was her only blind spot. She would have kept Drogon by her side at all times for everyone else.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Kaapstad said:

The reason he told her was to test Sam's theory and to confirm if she really was as good a person as he thought. Sam tells him that Dany burned his family alive when they refused to bend the knee and asked him whether she would give up her crown like he did when she realised she didn't have a claim on the Iron throne. Jon tries it out and is hurt when Sam is proven correct by her responses. Her first response is not happiness at finding out that she is not the lone Targ and has a male nephew. She subtly tries to imply they are all lying by saying "Don't you feel its strange that the ones who mention you are a Targ are your own brother and your own friend?". Then when he still insists that its true, she still tries to deny it by saing "If that's true, you have a claim on the Iron throne". She doesn't say "I no longer have the right to the throne. I will assist you but you should take it" . That's the exact point when Jon gets a little turned off by her and stops being intimate with her. When she tells him not to tell Sansa, he insists that his sisters who he grew up with have a right to know but she tells him Sansa would tell everyone and not to tell her. He does it anyway despite knowing the consequences as probably he wanted the secret to come out sub-consciously.

Although I do agree, they did her bad in the end. He should have tried persuading her for days before taking this drastic step. But they were in a rush. No time for dialogue so he ends up killing her the same day she went "mad" . There was no other option for him though. At that point, he was her only blind spot. She would have kept Drogon by her side at all times for everyone else.

 

So he messes with her head to play mind games? He’s even more of a creature than I thought.

Thats belittling what Dany has went through in her quest to get the throne. It’s not like him giving up Horn Hill or Jon giving up being King of the North. 

Dany showed mercy when she forgave Jorah who tried to have her killed. Jon hanged a child. People in glass houses do not throw stones. 

Sam wouldn’t have cared had they been anyone other than his family so his concern is insincere. Imagine if Alistar Thornes son had learnt what had happened to him and said that Jon shouldn’t be King of the North. Hmm? Me thinks he’s a biased little turd.

Edited by Tyrion1991

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tyrion1991 said:

He’s even more of a creature than I thought.

This is hilarious. I have to thank D&D for the finale, without which there wouldn't be threads like these. Keep em coming.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, RYShh said:

It's not something on wanting it or not, it's the law. It was Jon's duty to be the king.

What, just like it was Maester's Aemon's "duty" to be king? Or mad and merciless  Aerion Brightflame's infant son Maegor's duty too?

There certainly is no such law. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

What, just like it was Maester's Aemon's "duty" to be king? Or mad and merciless  Aerion Brightflame's infant son Maegor's duty too?

There certainly is no such law. 

Aemon was Night's Watch, Jon isn't. He was KitN.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, RYShh said:

It's not something on wanting it or not, it's the law. It was Jon's duty to be the king. And I am pretty sure Jon wouldn't say that if he didn't bent the knee to Dany before, he was just trying to get along with her aunt's desire, but she can't change law, the succession is clear.

Yes, they gave her the old stone dragons eggs, then she burns a witch, her dead husband and comes out with 3 Dragons. If that's not helping her, I don't know what is.

Hypocrisy is that she wants to return to Westeros because she is a targaryen, and then she learns that there is another targaryen, and even a better claim than hers, then she tries to erase that so no one should take the throne from her, I can't imagine stark children would do that to each other, as if Bran or Rickon would try to usurp Robb's right to the Winterfell, we wouldn't even think that, but somehow, just because she had the dragons and an army, she tries to usurp Jon's right to the Throne.

Well, Bran actually DID usurp his brother's right, didn't he? Or because Jon wasn't really his brother, this is less questionable and treacherous? 

And that, after making look like the most important thing was that Jon had to know that he was the "true heir" to the throne. In fact, also Sansa betrayed Jon, it all looked like Sansa and Bran teamed up to manipulate Jon to get rid of Danaerys, and then throw him under the bus.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, RYShh said:

Aemon was Night's Watch, Jon isn't. He was KitN.

So was it a betrayal of Jon’s ”duty” to give up his crown by bending the knee to Dany just as his ancestor Torrhen Stark, the King Who Knelt, did with Jon’s other ancestor, Aegon the Conqueror?

Think of all the lives this saved. Isn't that the only kingly duty that counts, saving the kingdom's people?

Edited by CrypticWeirwood

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, RFL said:

Jon did not have days to try to persuade her.  The moment he showed anything but pure loyalty to her was the moment he signed his own death warrant  

My interpretation of their final scene is that Jon was the one person left in the world who she cared for, and was in no danger at all from her.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, LucyMormont said:

Well, Bran actually DID usurp his brother's right, didn't he? Or because Jon wasn't really his brother, this is less questionable and treacherous? 

And that, after making look like the most important thing was that Jon had to know that he was the "true heir" to the throne. In fact, also Sansa betrayed Jon, it all looked like Sansa and Bran teamed up to manipulate Jon to get rid of Danaerys, and then throw him under the bus.

Right Bran went: “you need to tell him Sam and he needs to know”, only to tell us in the end that he had already packed his suitcases for the throne. 

Sansa betrayed Jon to Varys to get Dany out of the way and didn’t  care about the implications. Because becoming Queen in the North was more important from protecting her brother or keeping his secrets as family. And since personally she had nothing to lose the gain was greater than the risk; Jon was stupid enough to protect her. 

At the end he proves to be indeed stupid as he thanks them, but  he was only used as a tool for them to get the thrones. 

Edited by Nightwish

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

Right Bran went: “you need to tell him Sam and he needs to know”, only to tell us in the end that he had already packed his suitcases for the throne. 

Sansa betrayed Jon to Varys to get Dany out of the way and didn’t  care about the implications. Bebause becoming Queen in the North was more important from protecting her brother or keeping his secrets as family. And since personally she had nothing to lose the gain was greater than the risk; Jon was stupid enough to protect her. 

At the end he proves to be indeed stupid as he thanks them, but  he was only used as a tool for them to get the thrones. 

The show has ceased to do political intrigue convincingly, but my interpretation is that Sansa was stirring shit by revealing what she knew to Tyrion.  she wanted to drive a wedge between Daenerys and Jon, and to undermine the former.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The show has ceased to do political intrigue convincingly, but my interpretation is that Sansa was stirring shit by revealing what she knew to Tyrion.  she wanted to drive a wedge between Daenerys and Jon, and to undermine the former.

I agree, Sansa just wanted to be Queen in the North, it never came well to her that the Northerners had given Jon the throne, so creating a conflict between Jon and Dany was her great opportunity to actually get rid of both; As it happened. 

And Bran was supposed to be neutral and even said to Tyrion he had no interest in ruling Winterfell. Well Tyrion was asking the wrong question, he should have questioned him about the throne of Westeros.  

“Ah for that, I have packed my things and promised Sansa the North so when do we leave?” :lmao:

Edited by Nightwish

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, LucyMormont said:

Well, Bran actually DID usurp his brother's right, didn't he? Or because Jon wasn't really his brother, this is less questionable and treacherous? 

And that, after making look like the most important thing was that Jon had to know that he was the "true heir" to the throne. In fact, also Sansa betrayed Jon, it all looked like Sansa and Bran teamed up to manipulate Jon to get rid of Danaerys, and then throw him under the bus.

They choose Bran, that wasn't the line of succession. It was an election. Bran didn't ask for it.

This is totally an irrelevant and illogical example.

Dany wanted to usurp Jon, even when she knew no one wants her as Queen in Westeros, a lot more people wanted Jon.

They told Jon, 1-It's Jon's right to know who his real parents are, 2-so they can actually see Dany's true intention, did she really care about House Targaryen, or she just wanted to throne for no other reason than being a tyrant? They learned that it was the latter.

Sansa didn't betray Jon as well, not sure where you're getting this, she specifically denied Glover and Yohn Royce after Jon went to the Dragonstone, they wanted Sansa to lead them, but Sansa denied their offer and said Jon is their king. Then she told Tyrion, because she believed Jon would be a better ruler than Dany, then again she went to KL and tried to free Jon, and then she said the North lost its King, if they could take Jon back without sending to Night's Watch, Sansa was fine with Jon being the king,

Dany on the other hand, wanted no such a thing like that, on the contrary, she executed Varys for it, and she could even kill Jon for the throne.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

So was it a betrayal of Jon’s ”duty” to give up his crown by bending the knee to Dany just as his ancestor Torrhen Stark, the King Who Knelt, did with Jon’s other ancestor, Aegon the Conqueror?

Think of all the lives this saved. Isn't that the only kingly duty that counts, saving the kingdom's people?

They both saved each other from the Night King, after all Dany couldn't defeat the Night King as well.

What is better for the realm? Dany knew and told that a lot more people loves Jon in Westeros, and they wanted Jon as their king, but even after seeing that she still tried to usurp Jon, and insisted on taking the throne for herself. The people wanted Jon, and Dany still wanted stole Jon's right.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

So he messes with her head to play mind games? He’s even more of a creature than I thought.

Thats belittling what Dany has went through in her quest to get the throne. It’s not like him giving up Horn Hill or Jon giving up being King of the North. 

Dany showed mercy when she forgave Jorah who tried to have her killed. Jon hanged a child. People in glass houses do not throw stones. 

Sam wouldn’t have cared had they been anyone other than his family so his concern is insincere. Imagine if Alistar Thornes son had learnt what had happened to him and said that Jon shouldn’t be King of the North. Hmm? Me thinks he’s a biased little turd.

I would say it took hell of a lot of trouble for Jon to become King of the North than it took Dany to become a prospective queen. Jon did not have 3 dragons. He had to suffer through betrayals, walk through enemy territory and save his enemies and become friends with him. He won the North through sheer hard work and he willingly gave it up with a smile. What did Dany do? Use her dragons whenever she was threatened or whenever she wanted something. The fact that he gave up his crown and she didn’t shows who is the better leader. 

Jorah had to go through hell to win back her mercy. He almost died thanks to her stupidity. She flies off the handle very quickly unlike Jon can comes to conclusions faster. 

Edited by Kaapstad

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Kaapstad said:

I would say it took hell of a lot of trouble for Jon to become King of the North than it took Dany to become a prospective queen. Jon did not have 3 dragons. He had to suffer through betrayals, walk through enemy territory and save his enemies and become friends with him. He won the North through sheer hard work and he willingly gave it up with a smile. What did Dany do? Use her dragons whenever she was threatened or whenever she wanted something. The fact that he gave up his crown and she didn’t shows who is the better leader. 

Jorah had to go through hell to win back her mercy. He almost died thanks to her stupidity. She flies off the handle very quickly unlike Jon can comes to conclusions faster. 

I totally agree,

I would say the only period that Dany actually suffered is until they find a shelter for her small Dothraki group and her baby dragons after Khal Drogo's death, and still she had a few Dothraki fighters and Ser Jorah at her side, and then Qarth accepted them into the city, she was always a rich and secured afterwards, and as you say whenever she was threatened or wanted something she used her magical dragons to get it.

Even that small period between Drogo's death and acceptance to the Qarth isn't comparable to what Jon has suffered at Wall, at the beyond of the Wall, and then in the North.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, RYShh said:

I totally agree,

I would say the only period that Dany actually suffered is until they find a shelter for her small Dothraki group and her baby dragons after Khal Drogo's death, and still she had a few Dothraki fighters and Ser Jorah at her side, and then Qarth accepted them into the city, she was always a rich and secured afterwards, and as you say whenever she was threatened or wanted something she used her magical dragons to get it.

Even that small period between Drogo's death and acceptance to the Qarth isn't comparable to what Jon has suffered at Wall, at the beyond of the Wall, and then in the North.

Dany is 23 at the time of her death.  Seventy per cent of her life was an absolute nightmare of abuse.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×