Jump to content

Jon killing Dany doesn’t work for me


Tyrion1991

Recommended Posts

2 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

Why do people keep calling Arya and Sansa his sisters? He was technically closer to Dany. Worse yet, he was always accepted by Dany while he was always rejected by his "Stark" family. 

In this I have to stand by calling them his sisters. 

Regardless of true blood relation, emotionally his attachment, especially to Arya, is that of an older sibling.

Also, doesn't show!Jon strike you as the type of stubborn idiot who'd keep calling them sisters?

He persistently avoids his true identity.

Wait...

Unless it's to blab.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My perfect ending for the show would have been the Night King as the final Finale boss. But there was a better way to make the ending that actually subverts expectations AND makes sense, in my humble opinion. Finale as it ended, was open ended plenty, so even more open endedness wouldn't hurt it. Here is the things I'd change. Starting with episode 4. Leave Jaime and Varys in Winterfell. They don't move south. Varys makes up an excuse, he's sick, he can't travel , something. Dany is completely aware that he jumped from the Team Khaleesi train but can't actually kill him, and does not, but kind of wishes she could and shares her thoughts that Varys betrayed her to Jon and Tyrion. Jon is kind of shocked, Tyrion even more worried, they try to reassure her that no one betrayed her. Varys actually found out about Jon's parentage through his own spy ways and decided that the smartest and safest thing for him if he was going to agitate things for Jon's cause was to stay at WF. He talks with Tyrion before he leaves for KL to join him. Tyrion remains loyal to Dany. Things move on. Miss Sandy and the dragon die. Episode 5 starts with Jon actually consoling Dany when arriving, being supportive and emotionally available to her. He is even able to have awkward pity sex. Varys  already started with the letters of support for Jon, she shows one to him, he swears his loyalty to her and his love. Muh qwin!! She believes him, for now... Meanwhile outside of their quarters, Tyrion is a freak that drinks wine and waits and watches Jon as he leaves Dany's room later at night. He talks with him, saying that maybe Varys is right. Planting seeds that Dany is not mentally stable or suitable enough to rule wisely. We get that he is actually jealous.  Episode moves on, bells clang and rang, BUT Dany DOES NOT destroy the entire city, she just goes for the Red Keep, which IS chock full of smallfolk, women and children, yet she goes for the keep to burn Cersei. She tries to control the damage done by Drogon, but it gets out of hand and the keep is being destroyed and innocent people killed. And we see it from Cersei's perspective who is running away through the secret entrance/exit leaving in a small boat that Qyburn  prepared. We realize that the Cersei that was taunting Dany from the balcony  is just some dressed up girl that was hired to double for Cersei now dying from fear and seconds later just actually dying. Clegane fight happens more or less the same, the Mountain had to be left as a decoy also. He's a fraking zombie, who cares. Arya barely escapes Dany's attack on the Keep, witnesses dying children, BUT it happens after she realized that the real Cersei escaped. I don't know how, but somehow she sees, hears, or just gets the info that Cersei escaped. We see Euron who survived the burning of the fleet and swam so he gets to escape with Cersei. Dragonfire causes wildfire to explode, so some other parts of the city also get destroyed. More innocents die. Grey Worm mistakes all of the chaos as a signal to slaughter Lannister men that surrendered. Jon is just shocked, tries to stop his troops from joining, stops the rape like it happened, orders his men to fall back. Dothraki and the Unsullied are indiscriminately killing people. Slow mo of the chaos, of Fire and blood, Drogon shrieking from the top of the Red Keep. Jon's horrified face. End episode 5.

This is where I'm torn. Enough shit happened that Jon can be almost justified for killing Dany so the last episode happening as it did for real would work. But ... I'll go for a different set of events. just for fun.

So,  Jon has the talk with Tyrion, who tries his hardest to push him to murder Dany. After that Jon sees Arya who tells him that Cersei is alive, that Dany is mad and that she's had enough and is leaving all of this behind. Jon asks where, she whispers what is west of westeros in his ear, they hug long time. He goes to the throne room. Have you seen the children, innocent children. Dany tells her little story, tries to explain that she did what she could to control the damage, that the wildfire was not her fault. He reveals to her that Cersei actually survived. that the entire bloody attack on the Red Keep was actually futile. Dany is mad, seething with rage, wows to find her and kill her no matter what hole she crawled up in. Jon asks, even if the children are blocking the entrance? Dany composes herself, starts the topic of ruling together. They were meant to do this together. She stands next to him. They kiss. The cameras are positioned somewhat differently, so that we can see Jon going for the hilt of the dagger, almost taking it out. Almost... but actually backing out in the last second and continuing the kiss with Dany. He then looks her in the eyes and says that he is done. He wants no part of it. She can rule by herself, but she must leave the North alone, that it's off the limits for her. He also says that he'll be taking Tyrion with him. Dany is shocked, tries to reason with him, then she is flooded with emotions, she begs him to stay. She promises stuff, he says; no Dany, it is too late and turns to leave. Drogon lands in the throne room at that moment. a tear slides down her cheek. Dracarys she says. Slow mo of Jon's look of ultimate disappointment, Drogon prepares the flames and releases them! But they are not directed at Jon but on the damn Iron Throne.  He melts the thing down. Jon watches it then leaves the room. Dany collapses on the floor sobbing. It's a tragedy alright. End scene.

Time has passed. We see a smelly, stuffy old room in some forsaken brothel in Pentos. We hear a woman scream, a bed of blood is shown. It is Cersei after giving birth. Things did not go well. We see her pale face, short of breath, death is upon her. Jaime... is the last word she whispers to herself before dying. Her little valonquar killed her in the end. Euron is there beside the bed with a flagon of wine. Drunk to the max. the old woman that delivered the baby asks if he wants to see the baby's body. It was stillborn. He pushes her away and bolts out the door. He's getting more drunk in a brothel when 6 men with the Kraken insignia surround him, Yara walks in and says: Hello uncle.

Meanwhile at King's landing another bed of blood, midwifes are tending to Dany. She gave birth to twins. She WAS pregnant with Jon's children. Lords and ladies are gathered in the new great hall to pay their respects and bring gifts. Gendry, new prince of Dorne, Sweetrobin are there, Yara's emissary, freaking Bronn, other people. Camera goes back to Dany, she smiles happily while holding the babies in her arms. Outside Drogon roars in the ruin of the old Red Keep where he nested. There are eggs there and they are cracking.

Camera pans us to Winterfell. Tyrion and Jaime are talking. Sam is there also, visibly nervous. He can't find it. He was the one responsible for making the new crown for the Queen in the North, and he had it just a moment ago. Tyrion asks him to check the bag on the table. Oh there it is. The team gathers and goes into the hall where Sansa is being crowned. We see Jaime, Brienne, Pod, being the Queen's guard, we see Gilly and little Sam amongst the crowd of northern lords and ladies in attendance, Edmure is there, but who cares about him. Sansa is being crowned, afterwards Tyrion kneels and kisses her hand. they sit in the big chairs. Varys is near,  looking worried but content.Camera pans out of the hall where it is snowing. We are shown the Godswood. Bran is there warging. Solemn music is playing. We are shown scenes from the show's past, the present, and some from the future. :=) Then we see the raven flying above the ship where Arya commands the North men what to do. She smiles. Watch out unknown lands, here comes the she wolf, Arya Stark The camera pans out and hurls back to the North, the real North.

Up and up it goes, then down, snow is swirling, north and north and north it goes.  It show us The Wall, to castle Black, where there are wildlings doing their daily stuff. Children playing, Tormund sharing his stories with some impressionable lads. but the camera pans out and continues even further north. through the woods. Alive, peaceful woods. It comes out on a snowy meadow. The snow is still slowly falling, but there is the taste of the coming spring in the air. We see a new town, village, whatever, that wildlings build. Children are playing. There is a big tent in the middle, there is a small river nearby. Ghost is walking beside someone. The King beyond the Wall enters the big tent with Ghost at his side. We expect it to be empty, but there is a honey blonde haired wildling princess inside. A small babe in her arms, suckling. Yep, it is the last tit we'll see on Game of Thrones ever :=)  The camera turns on the Jon Snow, the King Beyond the Wall who smiles at sight, the camera closes on his eyes, soulful, dark eyes, then just one eye, in which we see Fire and Ice battling their eternal duel while the Game of thrones theme music plays in the background.

The End.

There I finished it for D&D, for George, anyone who wants it.


Good night.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

In this I have to stand by calling them his sisters. 

Regardless of true blood relation, emotionally his attachment, especially to Arya, is that of an older sibling.

Also, doesn't show!Jon strike you as the type of stubborn idiot who'd keep calling them sisters?

He persistently avoids his true identity.

Wait...

Unless it's to blab.

You would think a guy kidnapped and brainwashed his whole life into thinking he was Neds mistake and treated as second class wouldn't be so quick to reject his aunt and true heritage nor would he be so committed to the Starks(this ignoring of course how they helped kills his father).

Another completely absurd character decision that insults both the viewers and the character himself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

Tyrion's own motivations were also at least partly self serving. Selfpreservation is a mighty good motive to get someone to get rid of your executioner.

But you're right, we don't know if he would've killed Daenerys if his sisters weren't under threat either.

We just see a conversation.

But he was slapped in the face with that fact that his sisters would be killed.

And then he went and killed her.

I attribute that to show Jon's stupidity. Everything needed to be spelled out for him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

You would think a guy kidnapped and brainwashed his whole life into thinking he was Neds mistake and treated as second class wouldn't be so quick to reject his aunt and true heritage nor would he be so committed to the Starks(this ignoring of course how they helped kills his father).

Another completely absurd character decision that insults both the viewers and the character himself.

I disagree. He is extremely attached to the Starks. And he is half Stark after all. Whatever wrongs were done to him, it wasn't Arya and Sansa's fault. And the show has displayed his brotherly feelings towards Sansa, in addition to being extremely attached to Arya.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Techmaester said:

You would think a guy kidnapped and brainwashed his whole life into thinking he was Neds mistake and treated as second class wouldn't be so quick to reject his aunt and true heritage nor would he be so committed to the Starks(this ignoring of course how they helped kills his father).

Another completely absurd character decision that insults both the viewers and the character himself.

He wasn’t kidnapped though. His uncle took him in and raised him. Yea he hid jon’s ID from the king so the king did not kill Jon. Jon was raised with half his family. The other half was in exile and the king was hunting them. You think his Uncle Ned should have drop him off with Dany and her brother so his nephew can be hunted?

Ned is clearly not a shitty person. He raised his nephew who was also the grandson of the man who killed his brother and father.    

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jon wants three things in life: to be a legitimate son of Ned Stark, to be in Winterfell, to have a son/daughter of his own.

For me the bad writing for Jon comes in when Jon can only repeat 2 statements, "I dont want it" and "you're mah kween." I know Jon is an internal, introverted character but this is too much.

I also think the glacially slow pace it took for him to realize that Dany was bad news was unrealistic to Jon in the books who is actually quite perceptive. Varys, Sam, Tyrion, Arya, Sansa all caught on faster than him. 

The worst part was seeing him justify Dany’s actions AFTER she needlessly slaughtered the city and then saying “she doesn’t get to choose” about Sansa. He's basically saying that Sansa would have to bend the knee to this mass murderer. He also knows that Dany considers Sansa a traitor because she was making veiled threats about her constantly. 

I know GRRM said people who come back from resurrection are 1) attempting to complete the last mission they went on before they died and 2) don't come back nicer - but I don't think he meant that they come back stupider?

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Techmaester said:

Why do people keep calling Arya and Sansa his sisters? He was technically closer to Dany. Worse yet, he was always accepted by Dany while he was always rejected by his "Stark" family. 

Because they are. He grew up with them as a foster child. You always call your foster family brother and sister when you were brought in as a baby.

Dany is someone he barely knows. He is much closer to Sansa and Arya whom he grew up with.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Techmaester said:

You would think a guy kidnapped and brainwashed his whole life into thinking he was Neds mistake and treated as second class wouldn't be so quick to reject his aunt and true heritage nor would he be so committed to the Starks(this ignoring of course how they helped kills his father).

Another completely absurd character decision that insults both the viewers and the character himself.

He wasn't. Ned brought him up as his son. He wasn't brainwashed. He's the one out of all of them who truly learned how and what it was to be a true son of Ned Stark.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Jon wants three things in life: to be a legitimate son of Ned Stark, to be in Winterfell, to have a son/daughter of his own.

For me the bad writing for Jon comes in when Jon can only repeat 2 statements, "I dont want it" and "you're mah kween." I know Jon is an internal, introverted character but this is too much.

I also think the glacially slow pace it took for him to realize that Dany was bad news was unrealistic to Jon in the books who is actually quite perceptive. Varys, Sam, Tyrion, Arya, Sansa all caught on faster than him. 

The worst part was seeing him justify Dany’s actions AFTER she needlessly slaughtered the city and then saying “she doesn’t get to choose” about Sansa. He's basically saying that Sansa would have to bend the knee to this mass murderer. He also knows that Dany considers Sansa a traitor because she was making veiled threats about her constantly. 

You're right that it would have been more believable if he'd shown that he was catching on to her terrible, brutal nature. It would have shown growth, and that would have made it make better sense.

When did he say Sansa "didn't get to choose"? Sounds like Dany to me.

Have you thought about what it means to "liberate" everyone from Dorne to Winterfell, as Dany announced she planned to do. There are no slaves in Westeros, so just exactly who was she going to kill to make that possible? All the nobility? All the peasants? Both?

She can't go to Winterfell to "liberate" people without committing mass murder. It's what she does.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

He wasn’t kidnapped though. His uncle took him in and raised him. Yea he hid jon’s ID from the king so the king did not kill Jon. Jon was raised with half his family. The other half was in exile and the king was hunting them. You think his Uncle Ned should have drop him off with Dany and her brother so his nephew can be hunted?

Ned is clearly not a shitty person. He raised his nephew who was also the grandson of the man who killed his brother and father.    

Indeed. One of Jon's grandfathers burnt Jon's other grandfather alive. I'm sure he can never pretend that never happened, and now that he knows who's who, it's got to hurt him deeply. 

People shouldn't be surprised that he chose to end the Targaryen dynasty and hide his own identity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

He wasn’t kidnapped though. His uncle took him in and raised him. Yea he hid jon’s ID from the king so the king did not kill Jon. Jon was raised with half his family. The other half was in exile and the king was hunting them. You think his Uncle Ned should have drop him off with Dany and her brother so his nephew can be hunted?

Ned is clearly not a shitty person. He raised his nephew who was also the grandson of the man who killed his brother and father.    

He is a shitty person for hiding it and attempting to deny Jon half of his heritage. But he knew he had to as if he didn't Aegon would eventually go to war with Bobby B(as he should) for killing his father and attempting to kill his aunt and uncle. 

1 minute ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Because they are. He grew up with them as a foster child. You always call your foster family brother and sister when you were brought in as a baby.

Dany is someone he barely knows. He is much closer to Sansa and Arya whom he grew up with.

They are not. In Jons case the fostering was an active attempt to hide who he was and he wasn't given the choice. He knows enough to know he's not fully one of them and never will be. Which makes his obsession even funnier after learning he descended from people who controlled dragons and conquered the continent 200 years before. 

Obviously we won't agree on this, showJon made his choice, I think a fundamentally poor one that nobody in their right mind would make and which isn't consistent with the "realism" aspect of this show. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

He is a shitty person for hiding it and attempting to deny Jon half of his heritage. But he knew he had to as if he didn't Aegon would eventually go to war with Bobby B(as he should) for killing his father and attempting to kill his aunt and uncle. 

Ned kept Jon alive. If he hadn't hidden it, Jon would have been dead. He promised his sister. He kept his promise.

He was a saint.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

They are not. In Jons case the fostering was an active attempt to hide who he was and he wasn't given the choice. He knows enough to know he's not fully one of them and never will be. Which makes his obsession even funnier after learning he descended from people who controlled dragons and conquered the continent 200 years before. 

Obviously we won't agree on this, showJon made his choice, I think a fundamentally poor one that nobody in their right mind would make and which isn't consistent with the "realism" aspect of this show. 

He had the sound judgement of the family he grew up with to end the Targaryen dynasty forever. It was the best choice he could have made, and it shows us how smart he really was. In the end, he chose Grandpa Rickard over Grandpa Aerys. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Ned kept Jon alive. If he hadn't hidden it, Jon would have been dead. He promised his sister. He kept his promise.

He was a saint.

If by "alive" you mean keeping him in a state of self hatred to the point he wanted to spend the rest of his life guarding a wall of ice with criminals - maybe. 

5 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

He had the sound judgement of the family he grew up with to end the Targaryen dynasty forever. It was the best choice he could have made, and it shows us how smart he really was. In the end, he chose Grandpa Rickard over Grandpa Aerys. 

It's not sound judgement to reject your heritage for their successes. It's simply an act of self destruction and is just another subversive message being promoted by the show. A message of choosing failure when success is right infront of you because of fear. 

Apparently a lot of other people agree with me per the massive outcry on the shows terrible ending. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Techmaester said:

Apparently a lot of other people agree with me per the massive outcry on the shows terrible ending. 

They didn't understand it because the writers failed to convey Martin's vision properly. This was always how it ended, for many deep reasons. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

They didn't understand it because the writers failed to convey Martin's vision properly. This was always how it ended, for many deep reasons. 

By the last two episodes of a show the viewership has reached the point of not wanting their expectations subverted anymore. I think the biggest thing it conveyed to people is they wasted the last 10 years on something which ended in a completely unsatisfactory way. 

Maybe it was martins vision but if it reflects his social "message" I won't be looking into any more of his content. We probably wouldn't see eye to eye. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

By the last two episodes of a show the viewership has reached the point of not wanting their expectations subverted anymore.

Well of course the purpose of a show's ending is fan service. You have to give people want they're looking for. What do you think this is anyway, art or something?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

You're right that it would have been more believable if he'd shown that he was catching on to her terrible, brutal nature. It would have shown growth, and that would have made it make better sense.

When did he say Sansa "didn't get to choose"? Sounds like Dany to me.

Have you thought about what it means to "liberate" everyone from Dorne to Winterfell, as Dany announced she planned to do. There are no slaves in Westeros, so just exactly who was she going to kill to make that possible? All the nobility? All the peasants? Both?

She can't go to Winterfell to "liberate" people without committing mass murder. It's what she does.

Yeah, Jon wouldn't even have to do it quickly, but PAST the point of her dark turn was ridiculous. I cant believe they did that to a main character.

I have thought about her liberation propaganda, and I have to give credit to someone on these boards for predicting it way back in Season 6. They (can't remember who) said that if Dany started to use "slave liberator" thinking in Westeros, then she would be disturbingly creepy.

The (atrocious) dialogue for Jon:

Tyrion: And your sisters? Do you see them bending the knee?

Jon: My sisters will be loyal to the crown.

Tyrion: Why do you think Sansa told me the truth about you? Because she doesn't want Dany to be queen!

Jon: She [Sansa] doesn't get to choose.

Tyrion: No, but you do. And you have to choose now!

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Well of course the purpose of a show's ending is fan service. You have to give people want they're looking for. What do you think this is anyway, art or something?

We payed for it, practically speaking there is some degree of obligation to make it not feel like complete garbage to most people. The end result will simply be people not watching anything made by him in the future.

In some ways I think maybe it's a positive thing for people. The shitty ending forcing people to stop obsessing about a fantasy world living in a guys head which they have no control over instead of focusing on their real life problems.

(I admit I will probably never find out I have a long lost super hot aunt who wants to reform the world with me but damn, it makes me more motivated to find an IRL Dany with a similar fiery and aggressive personality).  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...