Jump to content
Tyrion1991

Jon killing Dany doesn’t work for me

Recommended Posts

13 minutes ago, Lord Stackspear said:

Who exactly got a “grey” ending?  Everyone other than Dany are pretty much living their life in a happy, pretty much what they wanted sort of way - heck, even Jon basically gets what wants.  

That said, regardless of whether the endings were grey or Disney, they mostly just didn’t make much sense in the world of Westeros we have known up until this point.  

Neither Bronn nor Gendry could have become respected Lords of the Reach and the Stormlands without some sort of powerful monarch backing them up and not in just several weeks time.  

The idea that the North would want independence from a male, Stark king and would prefer Sansa as their Queen is just silly in the world of Westeros that had existed until now. 

The idea that any of the 6 other kingdoms would submit to a Stark king while allowing the North to go independent makes no sense.  Yara had really not fully submitted to Dany (was still calling herself Queen of the Iron Islands).  Dorne was always a more independent kingdom.

All of it was just quick, let’s wrap this up and be done with it.  Who cares whether it makes sense, let’s get it over with and get on to our Star Wars trilogy.  

I don’t think Jon got what he wanted. He looked genuinely gutted when he was saying his final goodbyes to his family. Looked like he wanted a family for once. I think it’s overrated how much he likes the far North. He only liked his interactions with Ygritte. He escaped back home the moment they asked him to kill someone. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, RFL said:

 

I don't think that is the case.  I think there is a vocal minority but that was going to be the case regardless of what happened.  

Am I in love with the ending.  No to me it feels like there wasn't one.  The wheel keeps on turning.  Which I think was really the story GRRM was telling all along.  The high lords will play the game of thrones and the rest will suffer because of it.  

Neither you nor i have stats. But anecdotally, I have 1 friend who was satisfied and at least 7 who absolutely hated it. So that is my basis for saying it's not just a vocal minority.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Kaapstad said:

I don’t think Jon got what he wanted. He looked genuinely gutted when he was saying his final goodbyes to his family. Looked like he wanted a family for once. I think it’s overrated how much he likes the far North. He only liked his interactions with Ygritte. He escaped back home the moment they asked him to kill someone. 

You might be right.  It’s hard to say what Jon really wanted.  We know he didn’t want to be King (of the North or of the 7 Kingdoms), he didn’t really want to be Lord of Winterfell.  He wanted to defeat the white walkers, he wanted humanity to survive - he accomplished those things.  So, freedom with his friends and his dog (I’m interpreting him going north of the wall as an act of leaving the 7 kingdoms to gain his freedom, which isn’t entirely clear) seems like it might make him pretty happy - happier than dealing with politics and questions about ruling which he would surely have to do if he stayed south of the wall.  

Edited by Lord Stackspear

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Lord Stackspear said:

 

The idea that any of the 6 other kingdoms would submit to a Stark king while allowing the North to go independent makes no sense.  Yara had really not fully submitted to Dany (was still calling herself Queen of the Iron Islands).  Dorne was always a more independent kingdom. 

Yara didn't submit to Dany. She allied with Dany, as Dany agreed to let them be independent in return for supporting her claim.   Than this season Yara decided to take the Iron Islands back in Dany's name and not her own name for reasons that don't make sense to me.   But then to top it off she now doesn't want to be independent and wants to be ruled by a Stark King?  Dumb and illogical on so many lelvels

Edited by El Guapo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I don't really want to read about Dany's increasing atrocities, paranoia and depression that all leads to her death and Jon Snow's exile.  Even if it's beautifully written and realized, that isn't what I signed up for: tragic endings for the main protagonists of the story, semi tragic ending for Arya, with only the inveterate schemers Sansa and Tyrion getting what they want.  Not interested.

I agree.

The one thing that's stuck in my craw is how nihilistic the ending was. Unless you're a schemer, things aren't going to work out for you. Dany dies, Arya essentially cannot abide by society, Jaime dies right where he began. And for people with some principles you are doomed either way. if you are Ned Stark/Robb Stark you get beheaded/stabbed then beheaded, if you are Jon who does something that would be deemed controversial, you get exiled. I was expecting bitter sweet. THis was bitter all the way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Lord Stackspear said:

You might be right.  It’s hard to say what Jon really wanted.  We know he didn’t want to be King (of the North or of the 7 Kingdoms), he didn’t really want to be Lord of Winterfell.  He wanted to defeat the white walkers, he wanted humanity to survive - he accomplished those things.  So, freedom with his friends and his dog (I’m interpreting him going north of the wall as an act of leaving the 7 kingdoms to gain his freedom, which isn’t entirely clear) seems like it might make him pretty happy - happier than dealing with politics and questions about ruling which he would surely have to do if he stayed south of the wall.  

They certainly don’t show if he is happy when is riding out. For instance,him throwing off the Nights Watch cape as he rides out symbolising his freedom or giving a warm smile to Tormund like he gives Sansa and Arya. It’s a melancholy face. 

‘Personally I think him going back to Winterfell and being king of the north was his happiest ending. He gets to be with his sister. (His only relative) and when he tells Dany that he is King of the North or when he tells Sansa " Until I come back the North is yours" there is a hint of pride in his voice. Everyone in the North loves him and that’s whom he should rule over. Sansa getting the role is crap. She did absolutely nothing to deserve it. Jon is the reason Winterfell was saved from the dead. He also is the reason Dany didn’t burn Winterfell like Kings Landing. He gets thrown over the wall like a sack of unwanted potatoes without so much as a Thank you.  And there’s just like 100 free folk moving out. The rest stay in the North. Not too big of a settlement to mingle with. 

Edited by Kaapstad

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Kaapstad said:

Well they have made it a little ambiguous whether he is going to live with the free folk permanently. Even so it depends on how long Jon plans to stay beyond the wall. I never really got the feeling he liked it there apart from his interactions with Ygritte. Even some of the free folk don’t like it which is why they kept trying break into the North.  Once he feels he has suffered enough for his sins, I expect he will return to the North eventually. 

I personally do not believe he stays with the Free Folk long term. He changed from his House Stark clothes and is now wearing NW clothes. I don’t view his small smile as an indication that he is leaving with them forever. I think Jon will stay at the NW until he is released from his duty. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, KingMudd said:

He's really not. He's writing a story he wants to tell and people buy that story.

 

I find it extremely unlikely that he doesn’t consider what people would and would not like. If you’re writing you have to be aware of your target audience. 

He might believe that I would like Dany to go Dark Phoenix, which isn’t an unfair assessment since I do love that comic arc, but that’s not the same thing as saying he’s just sitting atop his pillar of wisdom without any thought of the audience. Otherwise you might end up writing a character you intend people to take as a badass and people think he’s comic relief. Aside from Dark Star he tends to avoid that. He has to be be self aware of his work. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You know the negotiated for something Jon did not want.  He told Melisandre very specifically to not bring him back if he was killed in the Battle of the Bastards.  He was trying to save the realm of man from the white walkers.  Once that was done and he watched the atrocities of Kings Landing perpetuated by man, and not just Danaerys and her troops for Jon resorted to killing his own men, his desire to be part of the realm of men was even less.   He killed another woman he loved to defend mankind.  Could you imagine if he had been at the meeting and listened to them discuss giving the votes to dogs or asking their horses?  He saved individuals - the same as he saved Mance from a tortured death being burned.   In the end though he may like individuals but he has had enough with the realm.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, RFL said:

 

I don't think that is the case.  I think there is a vocal minority but that was going to be the case regardless of what happened.  

Am I in love with the ending.  No to me it feels like there wasn't one.  The wheel keeps on turning.  Which I think was really the story GRRM was telling all along.  The high lords will play the game of thrones and the rest will suffer because of it.  

Bran can see everything so I don’t think the wheel will keep on turning. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He surely has not appeared interested in stopping it.  Even during the council meeting at the end he's like - "yeh just handle the business of the kingdom without me".  He's just replacing Robert's drinking and whoring with wharging off and looking at things in history that he wants to.  Its not like he even has proven to be good at telling the stories that Tyrion argues are so important.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, RFL said:

He surely has not appeared interested in stopping it.  Even during the council meeting at the end he's like - "yeh just handle the business of the kingdom without me".  He's just replacing Robert's drinking and whoring with wharging off and looking at things in history that he wants to.  Its not like he even has proven to be good at telling the stories that Tyrion argues are so important.  

Well considering how he manipulated everyone into making him king, he likely knows why him not handling the business is probably for the best. He can see the future after all. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the entirety of your argument is that HBO should have done a better job giving me what I wanted because I am an HBO customer only because of GOT you kind of don't understand how negotiation works.  HBO has ended GOT - if that was the only reason you are a customer they have already taken that away.  Its not the first time we have had a suspect ending that left viewers unsatisfied.  They did fade to black in the Sopranos.  

Tell good stories and let the chips fall where they may.  This was good story.  It was not a satisfying ending because we are left wondering if Dany comes back.  Being raised from the dead after being stabbed by mutineers has already been established.  Does Jon join the nights watch or go with the wildings.  What about Arya?  Is Sansa happy now?  What do the unsullied and Dothraki do now?  What about Mereen?  The prophecies?  But because all these open ends are left it does what the story teller wanted (I think).  It reminds us that these stories are just stories in part of time with lots more before (see the size of the citadel and the white book) and lots more coming after.  This time in history is not special its just its time in history with its own stories to tell.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, Lord Stackspear said:

Sorry, yeah, I do agree with Arya and Jon - those two make sense.  Less so with Sansa - sure, she wants to be Queen, but I don’t think the North or Westeros in general (aside from Dorne) are places that would prefer a Queen and independence over a King of the 7 kingdoms that came from the Lord paramount’s family of their respective kingdom.  Dorne was historically the only kingdom not to have strict male primogeniture, and I don’t see how the North has suddenly changed, but it is somewhat believable in the context of the show only.  

If it's a choice between a female Stark and a male [insert other House here], they'll pick the Stark every time. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

If it's a choice between a female Stark and a male [insert other House here], they'll pick the Stark every time. 

Bastard Stark, then female Stark, Karstark then everyone else.

Edited by King Jon Snow Stark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Ice Queen said:

If it's a choice between a female Stark and a male [insert other House here], they'll pick the Stark every time. 

Agreed, but that wasn’t the choice here. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Lord Stackspear said:

Agreed, but that wasn’t the choice here. 

Sure it is. You said you doubted the North would prefer a female over a male of pretty much anywhere else in the Seven Kingdoms. I don't think that's true. The Starks have ruled the North for 8000 years and are well-loved. The Northerners are just biding their time with Ramsay--his authority and stature in Winterfell derives from his marriage to Arya/Jeyne. That's how much clout they have. It was the only way to get the North to even remotely accept him as overlord. (The North doesn't accept him, but we'll have to wait and see how that plays out.)

As I said, they would take Sansa and Arya in a hot minute over some dandy from the Reach or anywhere else in the realm. They may be women, but they're Starks and Northerners. That trumps all. 

Edited by Ice Queen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Ice Queen said:

Sure it is. You said you doubted the North would prefer a female over a male of pretty much anywhere else in the Seven Kingdoms. I don't think that's true. The Starks have ruled the North for 8000 years and are well-loved. The Northerners are just biding their time with Ramsay--his authority and stature in Winterfell derives from his marriage to Arya/Jeyne. That's how much clout they have.

As I said, they would take Sansa and Arya in a hot minute over some dandy from the Reach or anywhere else in the realm. They may be women, but they're Starks and Northerners. That trumps all. 

The choice was between a Queen Sansa Stark in Winterfell (and independence) or a King Stark in King’s Landing (and being part of the 7 kingdoms).  

I think you misunderstood what I was saying (or I didn’t make myself clear enough).  What I was saying in my prior post is that, with the exception of Dorne, the idea that any of the 7 kingdoms would want independence with a Queen from their kingdom’s ruling family over no independence but with a King from their kingdom’s ruling family doesn’t make much sense in the world of Westeros.  So, for example, what the Westerlands prefer?  A Queen Lannister and independence or being part of the 7 kingdoms with a King Lannister?  Would the Vale prefer a Queen Arryn with independce or being part of the 7 kingdoms with a King Arryn?     

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Lord Stackspear said:

The choice was between a Queen Sansa Stark in Winterfell (and independence) or a King Stark in King’s Landing (and being part of the 7 kingdoms).  

I think you misunderstood what I was saying (or I didn’t make myself clear enough).  What I was saying in my prior post is that, with the exception of Dorne, the idea that any of the 7 kingdoms would want independence with a Queen from their kingdom’s ruling family over no independence but with a King from their kingdom’s ruling family doesn’t make much sense in the world of Westeros.  So, for example, what the Westerlands prefer?  A Queen Lannister and independence or being part of the 7 kingdoms with a King Lannister?  Would the Vale prefer a Queen Arryn with independce or being part of the 7 kingdoms with a King Arryn?     

The North has made it clear that they want an independent kingdom with a Stark ruler--even a woman. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×