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Tyrion1991

Jon killing Dany doesn’t work for me

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1 minute ago, Ice Queen said:

The North has made it clear that they want an independent kingdom with a Stark ruler--even a woman. 

I guess.  How did they make that clear?  Because Sansa said so?  Even in the face of a Stark king?  I mean, even Sansa’s last words to Tyrion was “what if there’s a better choice?”  She seemed like she’d be perfectly fine bending the knee to Jon (a Targaryen) as ruler of the 7 kingdoms, but not Bran?  Sorry, just doesn’t fully compute for me.  If Dorne and/or the Iron Islands had also asked for their independence after Sansa did, maybe I could buy it a little more.    

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32 minutes ago, Kaapstad said:

Well considering how he manipulated everyone into making him king, he likely knows why him not handling the business is probably for the best. He can see the future after all. 

The best for who exactly?  Himself perhaps if his ambition is to be king.  Surely not the common people of Kings Landing.  Not the Lannister soldiers for certain.  Not Jon.  Not Danaerys.  Not those still loyal to Dany such as Yara.  Not Missandei.  We spent a lot of the episode being reminded how believing one is right does not mean one is right.  

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20 minutes ago, Lord Stackspear said:

The choice was between a Queen Sansa Stark in Winterfell (and independence) or a King Stark in King’s Landing (and being part of the 7 kingdoms).  

I think you misunderstood what I was saying (or I didn’t make myself clear enough).  What I was saying in my prior post is that, with the exception of Dorne, the idea that any of the 7 kingdoms would want independence with a Queen from their kingdom’s ruling family over no independence but with a King from their kingdom’s ruling family doesn’t make much sense in the world of Westeros.  So, for example, what the Westerlands prefer?  A Queen Lannister and independence or being part of the 7 kingdoms with a King Lannister?  Would the Vale prefer a Queen Arryn with independce or being part of the 7 kingdoms with a King Arryn?     

Once Brans gone then it wont be a Stark as King of the 7 kingdoms. The northerners chose an independent North so that it would always be a Stark that rules over them.

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11 minutes ago, Lord Stackspear said:

I guess.  How did they make that clear?  Because Sansa said so?  Even in the face of a Stark king?  I mean, even Sansa’s last words to Tyrion was “what if there’s a better choice?”  She seemed like she’d be perfectly fine bending the knee to Jon (a Targaryen) as ruler of the 7 kingdoms, but not Bran?  Sorry, just doesn’t fully compute for me.  If Dorne and/or the Iron Islands had also asked for their independence after Sansa did, maybe I could buy it a little more.    

She was talking about the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, and even then she could have asked Jon for the North's independence. Jon was the king of an independent North; there was no reason for that arrangement to stop. Even with Daenerys, Sansa made it clear the North wanted to remain independent, which is why Daenerys would have been A-OK with burning it and Sansa to the ground. 

To her, Jon is not a Targaryen. He is her brother, just as Bran is. There will be family ties between the North and the throne of the Six Kingdoms for at least a generation, possibly longer depending on who she marries.

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Pretty sure each of the seven kingdoms would take independence once that was an option.  They only gave up their independence because of Aegon's dragons, and then later because seceding would result in war and probable destruction.

 

But the North got to secede peacefully just by asking, no way they wouldn't all take that chance over being ruled by some weird kid with magical powers derived from a religion they don't follow.  They'd be more likely to burn him at the stake.

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7 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

She was talking about the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, and even then she could have asked Jon for the North's independence. Jon was the king of an independent North; there was no reason for that arrangement to stop. Even with Daenerys, Sansa made it clear the North wanted to remain independent, which is why Daenerys would have been A-OK with burning it and Sansa to the ground. 

To her, Jon is not a Targaryen. He is her brother, just as Bran is. There will be family ties between the North and the throne of the Six Kingdoms for at least a generation, possibly longer depending on who she marries.

Does it matter who Sansa marries. The next king or queen will be the Nephew of King of the 6 kingdoms until Bran dies. If Edmure's son gets elected that king will be related to Sansa and her family. I really dont understand why there wasnt a revolt by the other lords. Two Stark Monarchs in charged of the 7 kingdoms. That is crazy. 

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1 minute ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Does it matter who Sansa marries. The next king or queen will be the Nephew of King of the 6 kingdoms until Bran dies. If Edmure's son gets elected that king will be related to Sansa and her family. I really dont understand why there wasnt a revolt by the other lords. Two Stark Monarchs in charged of the 7 kingdoms. That is crazy. 

Yeah, I don't get that either, especially from Dorne and the Iron Islands. 

I don't think it really does matter who Sansa marries, although here's a sticky issue: Can Sansa make her children Starks instead of taking the surname of her consort? If not, then the Stark name ends with this generation. 

The Starks and the Vale are also related through Cat and Lysa. The Stark kids are cousins to Robert Arryn. 

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36 minutes ago, RFL said:

The best for who exactly?  Himself perhaps if his ambition is to be king.  Surely not the common people of Kings Landing.  Not the Lannister soldiers for certain.  Not Jon.  Not Danaerys.  Not those still loyal to Dany such as Yara.  Not Missandei.  We spent a lot of the episode being reminded how believing one is right does not mean one is right.  

Personally I thought the way he said "Why do you think I came all this way?" in that tone after declining to be lord of winterfell suggests he is evil but D&D just didn't have time to fit in the evil Bran plot into 6 episodes. Maybe GRRM's novels could give an insight later

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20 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

Yeah, I don't get that either, especially from Dorne and the Iron Islands. 

I don't think it really does matter who Sansa marries, although here's a sticky issue: Can Sansa make her children Starks instead of taking the surname of her consort? If not, then the Stark name ends with this generation. 

The Starks and the Vale are also related through Cat and Lysa. The Stark kids are cousins to Robert Arryn. 

Granted it is a modern example but Queen Elizabeth did not take her husband's surname when she married Prince Phillip. The British royal family remains the House of Windsor.

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9 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

Yeah, I don't get that either, especially from Dorne and the Iron Islands. 

I don't think it really does matter who Sansa marries, although here's a sticky issue: Can Sansa make her children Starks instead of taking the surname of her consort? If not, then the Stark name ends with this generation. 

The Starks and the Vale are also related through Cat and Lysa. The Stark kids are cousins to Robert Arryn. 

I guess most of the lords there where related. Even Gendry. His father was best friends with the Starks' father. Sam is Jon's best friend.

2 minutes ago, Kaapstad said:

Personally I thought the way he said "Why do you think I came all this way?" in that tone after declining to be lord of winterfell suggests he is evil but D&D just didn't have time to fit in the evil Bran plot into 6 episodes. Maybe GRRM's novels could give an insight later

Maybe he is becoming human again and losing his raven powers... 

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7 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

Granted it is a modern example but Queen Elizabeth did not take her husband's surname when she married Prince Phillip. The British royal family remains the House of Windsor.

Exactly. The grand kids who are far down line of succession use a hybrid name that includes Windsor. If Sansa has children it would always be House Stark in charge of the North. There must always been a Stark in Winterfell even if its a bastard who is legitimatized. 

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On 5/21/2019 at 8:44 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

Since this is the direction GRRM is going this is a massive problem because I really do not like Jon Snow. Which, given that he kills my favourite character is adding insult to injury. Yet, in the show you are very much being put in Jon Snows shoes and the show assumes that you like him. To make his grief your grief. 

But if you don’t care for Jon that’s very difficult to do. I didn’t buy that Jon cared about Daenerys. They hadn’t shared much time together at all. He hadn’t been on a journey with her. So I didn’t feel his pain and frankly I wanted Drogon to kill him. Which is clearly not the writers intent.

Which means in the books Danys arc will rely on her loving a character I despise. Never mind foreknowledge that this guys gonna kill her.

Its actually is worse that Dany is killed by Jon. Because he represents everything I don’t like about the series. It means that GRRM considers Jon the protagonist and ultimately the story hinges on him making his decision to murder Daenerys. Then focus on his emo feelings on the matter. Which is very difficult if you’ve never liked Jon Snow.

I love Jon Snow, and he killing Daenerys does not work for me either. 

Or maybe I should say that I used to love him. He and Arya were my favorite characters. I liked Dany, but  not to the extent I loved those two. And then, just before the finale, I've reached the point where I couldn't care less for any of the characters. They were all pretty disgusting to me.

The show has taken from the characters almost all "likeable" qualities, those that made them who they used to be. ShowJon was made a mindless clueless fool manipulated by everyone, and Dany "madness" was not built up.  I could see her progresively becoming more entitled, more power hungry, more arrogant. But not more illogical, or more paranoid (like some people say -it's not paranoia when the people surrounding you are plotting against you and treat you badly for NO reason-), or more willing to destroy innocent human lives indiscriminately. Narratively, you can't jump from A to Z without passing through B,C,D, and so on. She was depicted as a heroine, although a troubled and flawed one, practically up to 2 episodes before. 

Anyway, I don't think the show wants to put you in Jon's shoes, because it never depicts what "Jon's shoes" are. His POV is hidden from us practically the whole season. We don't know whether he loved her or he used her, we don't know if he bent the knee because he truly believed she was going to be a good queen, or because he was just infatuated with her. We don't know how he felt about his Targaryen heritage and all its implicances. The show just makes no sense; it made all characters act out of character, stupidly, incoherently or evil (even Dany herself)  to make Danaerys feel isolated and "doom" her. Tyrion the Smart oh-so-big-mind made the stupidest of plans; Varys the Great Spy schemmed and plotted in the open for everyone to see, Sansa betrayed her brother; Dany "forgot" the Iron Fleet -and apparently likes to fly looking up and not down-; the dragons are flying cows that anybody can take down or the most powerful weapons against which all defense is useless, and so on. 

And how can be Jon the protagonist? He is a moron, they don't even made him take by himself the decision that Daenerys had to be taken down. After seeing all the destruction,  he was still "she's everyone's queen" and "we are done with the war now". And then he changed his mind because Tyrion said so! He was manipulated by Tyrion, 

My grief is that the characters I used to love are nowhere to be found, and that the moral of this story is that nothing makes sense. All those years following it, absolutely for nothing. 

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I'm not sure GRRM would consider anyone the protagonist and antagonist.  The deviation from normal story telling methods by using so many different characters points of view really lets the focus be on the story and not the characters.  While we are used to seeing the story revolve around the characters in this case the characters end up only being part of the story - and I hope that makes more sense than it is written as.    

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9 minutes ago, RFL said:

I'm not sure GRRM would consider anyone the protagonist and antagonist.  The deviation from normal story telling methods by using so many different characters points of view really lets the focus be on the story and not the characters.  While we are used to seeing the story revolve around the characters in this case the characters end up only being part of the story - and I hope that makes more sense than it is written as.    

 

Since GRRM told them the ending Iam assuming he also told them the general theme and underlying message. Power and heroes are bad. Stoic drones who don’t want power are good. I think D&D lack George’s complexity but I think it will ultimately go there.

Which will mean painting Dany in a horrendous light and setting Jon as finally putting Duty above Love. Which George has been saying over and over is the pinnacle of morality and the highest virtue; apparently. 

That ending confirms to me that Dany is an “evil superman” and that George really is going there. To me, that’s satire and not really a morally grey story where events play out organically. This is set up as a tragedy in which a character who embodies what the author advocates has to kill a character who embodies everything he is advocating against. It’s very clear cut.

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Ice Queen said:

Yeah, I don't get that either, especially from Dorne and the Iron Islands. 

I don't think it really does matter who Sansa marries, although here's a sticky issue: Can Sansa make her children Starks instead of taking the surname of her consort? If not, then the Stark name ends with this generation. 

The Starks and the Vale are also related through Cat and Lysa. The Stark kids are cousins to Robert Arryn. 

Sansa can have Stark Children. Look at House Mormont. The current Starks are decended from Brandon the Daughterless's Daughter anyway. Also look at Ser Joffrey Lydden, who married the last Lannister at the time (who was a woman) and took her name so their children would be Lannisters.

Edited by KingMudd

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14 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Since GRRM told them the ending Iam assuming he also told them the general theme and underlying message. Power and heroes are bad. Stoic drones who don’t want power are good. I think D&D lack George’s complexity but I think it will ultimately go there.

Which will mean painting Dany in a horrendous light and setting Jon as finally putting Duty above Love. Which George has been saying over and over is the pinnacle of morality and the highest virtue; apparently. 

That ending confirms to me that Dany is an “evil superman” and that George really is going there. To me, that’s satire and not really a morally grey story where events play out organically. This is set up as a tragedy in which a character who embodies what the author advocates has to kill a character who embodies everything he is advocating against. It’s very clear cut.

You're clearly quite upset at the moment about the handling of Dany in the show. The only thing to do is wait for the books and see what GRRM has planned. If it is the same ending I have no doubt it will be more fleshed out and organic than what the show gave us. Maybe have some trust that GRRM will bring them to a final conclusion in a satisfying way.

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Since GRRM told them the ending Iam assuming he also told them the general theme and underlying message. Power and heroes are bad. Stoic drones who don’t want power are good. I think D&D lack George’s complexity but I think it will ultimately go there.

Which will mean painting Dany in a horrendous light and setting Jon as finally putting Duty above Love. Which George has been saying over and over is the pinnacle of morality and the highest virtue; apparently. 

That ending confirms to me that Dany is an “evil superman” and that George really is going there. To me, that’s satire and not really a morally grey story where events play out organically. This is set up as a tragedy in which a character who embodies what the author advocates has to kill a character who embodies everything he is advocating against. It’s very clear cut.

 

 

 

 

 

Isn't it Jon's duty to protect and advance Danys agenda since he declared for her? Isn't the statement that he killed her for the North is putting love for Sansa(another betrayer) above duty? His actions were clearly honorless.

Him killing her can easily be said as him rejecting his duty in the face of fear of (real) change. Him rejecting his lineage, him rejecting his role in shaping the future.

"Ai dunt wunt eht"

Edited by Techmaester

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7 minutes ago, KingMudd said:

You're clearly quite upset at the moment about the handling of Dany in the show. The only thing to do is wait for the books and see what GRRM has planned. If it is the same ending I have no doubt it will be more fleshed out and organic than what the show gave us. Maybe have some trust that GRRM will bring them to a final conclusion in a satisfying way.

I stan for Dany, quite obviously, but I stan even more for GRRM.

If we get this exact same ending in the books, I would be surprised ... but I would expect it to be excellently done and not surprising by the time it happened. Or at least it would not be surprising in the "no this is bullshit that contradicts everything" way that the show was surprising in Season 8.

I just hope to hell we actually get to read that.

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3 hours ago, SeanF said:

It depends on the grounds.  If it ends like the show, yes, I think that would be a poor ending.  I would expect that Martin would do better than that.

I can live with Jon killing Daenerys because they've become political enemies, and one of them has to take the other down.

One reason why we should expect the endgame in the books to be very different (even if the main characters meet similar fates) is because Tyrion in the books is very different to St. Tyrion of the Show.

I dunno.  The butterfly effect can only take us so far.  So unless the show consciously decided on a major break with how GRRM told them character arcs would end this looks to be it.  The books might take us there by a different route with more development but I think this pretty much it.

Which is surprising to me.  Dany's arc is straight up tragic.  From a dream of going home, of breaking the chains of slaves, of being a liberator who sees the point of ruling as to do justice to becoming the mad queen.  From admiring Rhaegar to imitating Aerys.  She even managed to one-up Aerys, he only managed to plan to destroy KL whereas she achieved it and didn't blink before planning more fire and blood.  Is that really the point of it: that we turn full circle to another mad Targaryen and another King(Queen)slayer as Dany becomes Aerys and Jon becomes Jaime?

Meh.  I know the arcs have to end somewhere and Good Queen Dany and Good King Jon ruling wisely and justly would be way too saccharine but I'm genuinely left puzzled as to the purpose of Dany's character (except to bring in dragons) and I can't see that the show would part too far from what the author had in mind.  And I guess that the ending provided will make me less invested in the ten year wait for GRRM to spend cranking away at finishing the books.  Endings are always sad as you have to part with characters and stories you have followed for years (or decades) and an emotionally satisfying pay-off is tricky for the author to reach without the cliche of a happy ending but right now I feel like Aragorn turned into Denethor mk 2 and got offed by Gandalf and Faramir chosen to continue the line of Stewards.  The world was saved at a heavy price but what was the point of the character?  Was it just to do a rug pull and subvert expectations?

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21 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

I dunno.  The butterfly effect can only take us so far.  So unless the show consciously decided on a major break with how GRRM told them character arcs would end this looks to be it.  The books might take us there by a different route with more development but I think this pretty much it.

Which is surprising to me.  Dany's arc is straight up tragic.  From a dream of going home, of breaking the chains of slaves, of being a liberator who sees the point of ruling as to do justice to becoming the mad queen.  From admiring Rhaegar to imitating Aerys.  She even managed to one-up Aerys, he only managed to plan to destroy KL whereas she achieved it and didn't blink before planning more fire and blood.  Is that really the point of it: that we turn full circle to another mad Targaryen and another King(Queen)slayer as Dany becomes Aerys and Jon becomes Jaime?

Meh.  I know the arcs have to end somewhere and Good Queen Dany and Good King Jon ruling wisely and justly would be way too saccharine but I'm genuinely left puzzled as to the purpose of Dany's character (except to bring in dragons) and I can't see that the show would part too far from what the author had in mind.  And I guess that the ending provided will make me less invested in the ten year wait for GRRM to spend cranking away at finishing the books.  Endings are always sad as you have to part with characters and stories you have followed for years (or decades) and an emotionally satisfying pay-off is tricky for the author to reach without the cliche of a happy ending but right now I feel like Aragorn turned into Denethor mk 2 and got offed by Gandalf and Faramir chosen to continue the line of Stewards.  The world was saved at a heavy price but what was the point of the character?  Was it just to do a rug pull and subvert expectations?

I'd see Tyrion as becoming Dany's evil genius when he starts working for her (he is a complete shit by Book 5) egging her on to take revenge on those who have wronged him.

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