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Tyrion1991

Jon killing Dany doesn’t work for me

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3 hours ago, Ice Queen said:

Yeah, I don't get that either, especially from Dorne and the Iron Islands. 

I don't think it really does matter who Sansa marries, although here's a sticky issue: Can Sansa make her children Starks instead of taking the surname of her consort? If not, then the Stark name ends with this generation. 

The Starks and the Vale are also related through Cat and Lysa. The Stark kids are cousins to Robert Arryn. 

Yeah, Sansa could give her children the Stark last name or her husband can take the last name Stark. I think it's happened a number of times in Westeros history.

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Posted (edited)

I hate it too, but for kind of the opposite reason.

I’m a Jon fan (book Jon anyway), who’s now pissed his arc ends in misery because a chararcter I’m indifferent to turned into Hitler. 

His whole arc is choosing duty over love, and being miserable and punished for it. That’s crazy unsatisfying. At least kill him off if that’s the case.

I never wanted them to rule happily ever after Disney style. I wanted them to go through back-to-back Pyrrhic victories, have them thoroughly sick of death and betrayal and “the game”, realize there will never be peace and just bounce. Have them live traumatically ever after somewhere (obviously in a house with a red door).

That said, I can’t imagine what the show gave us is even remotely close to what we get in the books, even if the outcome is generally the same.

No way GRRM has Dany turn into a one-dimensional villain in the 11th hour, and kills her off without devoting several POV chapters to both Dany and Jon. And I’m not sure if there’s enough space for that. 

Edited by King Wyman

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I don't really want to read about Dany's increasing atrocities, paranoia and depression that all leads to her death and Jon Snow's exile.  Even if it's beautifully written and realized, that isn't what I signed up for: tragic endings for the main protagonists of the story, semi tragic ending for Arya, with only the inveterate schemers Sansa and Tyrion getting what they want.  Not interested.

I couldn't agree more. It's disgusting that "mad queen" Cersei gets to die having the consolation of someone who loves her and comes back to try to save her or die with her; and "mad queen" Daenerys dies, in a treacherous way,  at the hands of the man she loves. NO WAY. Cersei was way worse than Dany, never did a single selfless thing, and didn't torch  all the people that opposed her just because SHE DIDN'T HAVE a dragon. 
Sansa, gets rewarded with a kingdom, after becoming Littlefinger 2.
Tyrion, gets rewarded with being Hand of the King, after being the proven worst Hand of the King in the histoty of Westeros, not to mention highly responsible for the carnage of  King's Landing population.
Sam, a coward oathbreaker and manipulator, gets rewarded with a position in the King's Counsel.
Bran, who to this very moment we don't know if he is just an autistic tree or the worst villain of all, gets the throne. 
And Jon, the only character that always acted with the greater good in mind -albeit cluelessly-  gets exiled and banished. 

This is a very dark hopeless story.

And no, this is nothing like real life. There are tragedies in real life, but  life is also full of beauty, of good, of true heroism. It's full of people who fall and get up again, who fight their demons and adictions and succeed, and then help others to do the same. It's full of selfless people who do the right thing when the easy way is to do the opposite.

Some people in this forum  think that the end doesn't matter, that what matters is the journey. So I understand that they are willing to read the remaining books, even when the end is so unsatisfactory. But for me, the only thing that gives meaning to a "journey", is it's destination.

From this story, I only got frustration, I don't need more of that.

 

Edited by LucyMormont

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Regarding what GRRM told D&D and whether the book will be different, I have to think that GRRM told them just the broad outline/brushstrokes of Dany turning bad, making morally wrong choices in her battle to take back the IT, and Jon being the one to kill her.  GRRM has said he's a "gardener," and, if he is to be believed, has not even started on A Dream of Spring.  I don't think he has worked out the details of how Dany will get from A to Z other than knowing that is where he wants to take her.  Heck, I wouldn't put it past GRRM to write it one way and then to decide it doesn't work with Dany and change what he had in mind from the start.  What I don't see is GRRM writing Dany to have a psychotic break after she has essentially won the IT, killing thousands of innocents unprovoked, and then turning into some fascist, crazy super dictator that just babbles nonsense to Jon and then is killed.  IMO, that is basically as nihilistic an ending as if the white walkers win and kill everyone - I understand Dany's decisions and motivations about as much as I understand the NK's.  Now, an ending where Dany makes tragic decisions that, on some level are justified, but are ultimately wrong and beyond redemption and Jon, a man who has always lived by the Stark honor code, is forced to kill the woman he loved and swore allegiance has the potential to be quite tragic and quite complex if the story is told well.  I can see it being one of those scenes where you have all sorts of complex and disparate feelings about both characters and where you can debate what the right outcome was.  Here's to hoping GRRM finishes the books.     

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It was the abruptness that made no sense to me.

Otherwise there is some interesting metaphorical work. Danny’s IT is like Frodo’s ring. Ultimately the Game turned her. Character wise she had flashes of blood and fire in debatable ways and then went Bloody Mary...convictions that led her to marry an enemy, have false pregnancies( really far along) and burn more people who died to force them to agree with her religion. Mary started off sweet girl, as agreed by people of the times, and ended up, well, emotionally driven, thinking her non child would justify her suffering, and vindictive.

I think the message is that if anyone is wanting to lead nations with fire and blood, good people should resist, even if she is beautiful, only 16 years old, courageous, smart, heroic, and better than the throne occupant by miles.  Good people can break bad, bad people can break good and it is very confusing to try to do the right thing.

Danys dragon flamed the throne. Metaphorically, Drogon chose the correct target. 

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Posted (edited)

I kind of relate to what OP is saying. This isn't Daenerys' story, but nor is it Jon's (or Tyrion's). It also shouldn't be a story of Starks vs. everyone, at least, that's not the impression I got before but now I'm not so sure. It's a world of grey and greyer and really dark grey. It was not sold to me as a world of black and white. Therefore, for example, like OP you could not really like Jon at all and still have a satisfying, engrossing story because he's not "the hero" of the story, not the protagonist, not "the good guy" you're supposed to root for 100%. But in this ending as presented he becomes exactly that.

On the other hand, if you like Daenerys as a character it's still okay for her to have a tragic end, but not to become a pure black villain in her final moments, murdered by the Christ-like hero Jon Snow. It wasn't that kind of story! It feels like a bait and switch. He's a Queenslayer, kinslayer, and oathbreaker now but the only reason he is sent to the Wall is to satisfy non-Westerosi Greyworm, also turned into darkest villainy and ineffective buffoonery at the end. While Daenerys is delusional, dragon Hitler, worse even than Aerys (who only wanted to burn Kings Landing because he was losing). She's given far less sympathy than Cersei, who at the moment of death is in the arms of someone who actually loves her, and she is portrayed as desperate to save the life of her child and sad because she cannot. That's human. Daenerys is left completely unrelateable, and it was not supposed to be that kind of story. It wasn't before.

There's a reason these kinds of Face-Heel Turn stories where a "good" person becomes the really bad guy usually are reserved for stories that are already black and white, good vs. bad stories.

Edited by theladyinspring

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Posted (edited)
On 5/21/2019 at 5:44 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

Which means in the books Danys arc will rely on her loving a character I despise. Never mind foreknowledge that this guys gonna kill her.

Its actually is worse that Dany is killed by Jon. Because he represents everything I don’t like about the series. It means that GRRM considers Jon the protagonist and ultimately the story hinges on him making his decision to murder Daenerys. Then focus on his emo feelings on the matter. Which is very difficult if you’ve never liked Jon Snow.

What do you mean that "GRRM considers Jon the protagonist"?

Why does Jon pulling a Jaime and saving the kingdom by killing a cruel tyrant somehow make Jon "the protagonist"?  What does that even mean

Does that mean Jaime was "the protagonist" of Robert's Rebellion? Was Laertes and not Hamlet therefore the protagonist of Hamlet

Why can't Dany be "the protagonist" or at least "a protagonist"? Because she died? Because she became ugly and dangerous? Because she committed mass murder? How would any of those rule her out?

Shouldn't Bran be "the protagonist" here? After all, he's not only the character who opened the story, he's also the character who won the game of thrones in the end.

This is clearly the story of the Stark children including Jon, and Dany and Tyrion. Aren't they all "the protagonists"?

Finally, what are "emotional feelings"?  Aren't all feelings emotional and all emotions feelings?  Why wouldn't you focus on Jon's feelings here?  He's just had to do a terrible, terrible thing that he'll never heal from in order to save their world, and save it not for himself mind you but for the others. More personally, it was to save his sisters. You can't minimize that damage by pretending it didn't happen, pretend that it had no effect on these "emotional feelings" you strangely refer to so disparagingly.

The emotional feelings that result from "the human heart in conflict with itself" are central to what this tale is all about according to its author. Those are the emotional feelings that come from the conflicts in our own heart,  from the horrible things that do to ourselves or to others — or have done to us — because of those heart-felt conflicts.

This curious thing happens when you decide you like or dislike this or that character. You interpret everything about them through the lens of confirmation bias so that no matter what they do you consider it evidence that your view of them is right. But this bias means you cannot see them fairly. You overlook, even ignore or cannot acknowledge, the bad things in the characters who have won you over: they're your guys now just like the "my mother drunk or sober" slogan. You blind yourself to their faults and your confirmation bias makes you interpret everything that happens in the light you want to see it in. Then you go and do the very same thing but reversed  in whoever you've decided you don't like. That person now can do no right, and you're forever nitpicking and dwelling on the things your confirmation bias has confirmed are surely reality.

And yet neither of those two approaches is anything close to true.  They're fictions we tell to ourselves about others, and about ourselves too.

If Jon killing Dany with a dagger to the heart hurt you, imagine what it did to Jon! Don't you think this hard-sick emotion you're feeling right now was Martin's deliberate intent here? Those dagger-through-the-heart feelings are what gives the story its power. You may even feel yourself empathizing with either or both of Jon and Dany. And so you'll remember this story for a long time. It got to you.

That's what it was supposed to do, so mission accomplished.

 

Edited by CrypticWeirwood

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5 hours ago, KingMudd said:

Sansa can have Stark Children. Look at House Mormont. The current Starks are decended from Brandon the Daughterless's Daughter anyway. Also look at Ser Joffrey Lydden, who married the last Lannister at the time (who was a woman) and took her name so their children would be Lannisters.

Thanks. I forgot all about that. ☺

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13 hours ago, Pacala said:

This is a world about Targaryen family.

Is it? Would you rather it were called The Fall of the House of Dragonstone instead of A Song of Ice and Fire

These are the final chapters in the saga of three hundred years of disputed hereditary rulership by horrible self-entitled conquerors wielding weapons of mass destruction, and the endless wars and unthinkable atrocities that ensued.

The hidden-rightful-heir motif is used to close off that saga not by a glorious Targaryen Restoration but by this hidden rightful heir realising how terrible the Targaryen family actually are, why they must not return, and snuffing them out forever.

Then after that he goes quietly off into the wild without telling anyone who he is.

Brilliant, Mr Martin, pure brilliance.

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11 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Is it? Would you rather it were called The Fall of the House of Dragonstone instead of A Song of Ice and Fire

These are the final chapters in the saga of three hundred years of disputed hereditary rulership by horrible self-entitled conquerors wielding weapons of mass destruction, and the endless wars and unthinkable atrocities that ensued.

The hidden-rightful-heir motif is used to close off that saga not by a glorious Targaryen Restoration but by this hidden rightful heir realising how terrible the Targaryen family actually are, why they must not return, and snuffing them out forever.

Then after that he goes quietly off into the wild without telling anyone who he is.

Brilliant, Mr Martin, pure brilliance.

But they aren't, I mean the show developed a character who was good in nearly every aspect but willing to commit violence to spread it. We have a war created by Bobby B because he couldn't lay Neds sister, We have a collection of houses all fighting for power in perpetual war after the real Kings dethronment. 

How can you respect a character who killed his closest relative, destroyed his bloodline, failed to avenge his actual father and mother and went on to wander about an ice desert because "ai dunt wunt eht"?

It's insulting, he is exactly what not to aspire to. A protector of the status quo so afraid of change and it's outcome that he disregards the entirety of who he is. 

I didn't read the books but if this summarizes Jon in them I won't be reading them.

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Posted (edited)

@Tyrion1991 Don't feel bad dude. Jon killing Dany didn't work, doesn't work and will continue to not work for anyone. At lesat not 

But you're Dark Phoenix analogy doesn't quite work. It's more like finding out the Dark Phoenix Saga takes place over 2 comic book issues, the actual Phoenix Force is never explained, you don't know what Jean Grey is doing, you don't care for Cyclops because he hasn't done anything for 20 issues...AND THEN he kills her with a knife to a heart in front of the police.

But he never gets arrested for it.

Edited by Jabar of House Titan

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Posted (edited)

I absolutely despise Dany and love Jon so I think we're on different ends of the spectrum here. 

I knew Dany was always going to go dark and turn into a tyrant, so watching Jon act so stupidly blind about who she was from S7 onward is like watching my favorite character slowly become a brainwashed lemming. I wanted Jon to be smarter. I didn't want him to become another man worshiping her feet and kissing her ass. Even worse, he EXCUSED her actions. Absolute heinous. It was a totally unpleasant experience all the way through. I started hate watching and just hoping that they both died. That's when you know something went wrong. I was happy that he killed her but you know... did he have to be such a dumbass right at the end?

However, I also think this will happen in the books too and no matter how well GRRM writes it, he can't make these two incompatible figures actually feel "right" for me. Moreover, he doesn't have enough time. They'll only have a book? And I'm supposed to believe this was the deepest love of their lives or something. Give me a break. 

10 hours ago, Kaapstad said:

I don’t think Jon got what he wanted. He looked genuinely gutted when he was saying his final goodbyes to his family. Looked like he wanted a family for once. I think it’s overrated how much he likes the far North. He only liked his interactions with Ygritte. He escaped back home the moment they asked him to kill someone. 

THIS. How can any Jon fan be happy with this ending? His scenes with Gilly and Sam indicated he wanted what they had. In the books I hope it ends with him fathering a bastard - not with Dany though because pureblood Targaryen genes gotta go. He hasn't had a single "sweet" thing happen to him in his entire life. Its just non-stop bitterness.

On the duty vs. love thing: Aemon's speech was mostly about honor, to a vow. I hope the books lean more into the idea that it's his duty to uphold his vow to Dany and this would ruin his honor if he didn't. I can see a choice between feudal obligation to Daenerys vs. family love to the Starks. Tyrion mentioned his sisters but he was still acting like an immature 12 year old at that point, so who knows who/what he even killed her for. However, we know that Jon almost ruined his own honor for Ned and Arya in the books. The third time should also be for family. 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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Is there any reason Jon can't eventually have what Gilly and Sam have? He's got the rest of his life ahead of him, surely he'll meet another fun and daring wildling girl and fall in love and this time there's no reason he can't just go off with her. He'll always have some trauma, but so does everyone else. 

In the immediate what happened to Jon is devastating and a tremendous burden he has to carry. It's actually kind of sickening that everyone in his family is fine with him carrying that alone. But he's got friends and a people he relates to that he can join. He can still have a life.

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4 minutes ago, theladyinspring said:

Is there any reason Jon can't eventually have what Gilly and Sam have? He's got the rest of his life ahead of him, surely he'll meet another fun and daring wildling girl and fall in love and this time there's no reason he can't just go off with her. He'll always have some trauma, but so does everyone else. 

In the immediate what happened to Jon is devastating and a tremendous burden he has to carry. It's actually kind of sickening that everyone in his family is fine with him carrying that alone. But he's got friends and a people he relates to that he can join. He can still have a life.

The show played it ambiguous. You don't know if he's joining the wildlings or leading them on a ranging. D&D interviews have said conflicting things about his ending. So if he's in the Night's Watch, taking another vow celibacy, it's SUPER depressing. I think GRRM would have something in epilogue for him because I need closure for him. This ending was just not it because it could go either way. Frustrating.

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Just now, Rose of Red Lake said:

The show played it ambiguous. You don't know if he's joining the wildlings or leading them on a ranging. D&D interviews have said conflicting things about his ending. So if he's in the Night's Watch, taking another vow celibacy, it's SUPER depressing. I think GRRM would have something in epilogue for him because I need closure for him. This ending was just not it because it could go either way. Frustrating.

I agree that if Jon is really back in the Nights Watch for good then it's a brutal end for him.

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1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

The show played it ambiguous. You don't know if he's joining the wildlings or leading them on a ranging. D&D interviews have said conflicting things about his ending. So if he's in the Night's Watch, taking another vow celibacy, it's SUPER depressing. I think GRRM would have something in epilogue for him because I need closure for him. This ending was just not it because it could go either way. Frustrating.

He was on a ranging mission and the kicker is that Jorah was suppose to be with him in the alternate ending as deleted scenes indicated he betrayed Dany too and supported Jon.  He was filmed at the feast celebrating with the Northerners and advising her against going to KL too.  This further explains why Daenerys felt so distraught and looked disheveled.  Glad they backed away from this ending.

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12 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I agree, I was always mystified as to why GRRM had her rule of Meereen turn into such a mess, believing she was still going to be one of the heroes of the story.  Now that I know her path is tragic, GRRM doesn't have to pull a rabbit out of the hat and find a way to 'fix' Meereen before she leaves.  She won't fix Meereen, she will torch it, and tell herself that it was beyond saving, but Westeros will be different......but she will have learned all the wrong lessons and things will go badly in Westeros from the beginning.

I think your vision is likely enough. Think what happened to Astapor. She betrayed her own word when "purchasing" the Unsullied, murdered the people she was supposed to be paying, then had the city sacked during which she ordered all the slave masters as well as all all adult nobles murdered. She left the crushed city in the hands of three weakings who were quickly overthrown, replacing them with a series of ill-fated, brutality-loving tyrants who hunted down all the small boys of the nobility, castrated them, and enslaved them. As Ghael said to Daenerys:

Daenerys: Many of my freedmen were slaves in Astapor. Perhaps some will wish to help defend your king. That is their choice, as free men. I gave Astapor its freedom. It is up to you to defend it.

Ghael: We are all dead, then. You gave us death, not freedom.

"Good" characters do not do these things. But this is who she is, what she does. Repeatedly. Her word means nothing, and she leaves only destruction in her wake.

Pretending that this sort of person "should" rule anywhere, let alone Westeros where she's never been, is dangerous and deceptive.

Viewers deceived by her beauty have conditioned themselves to ignore the many, many indications of her calamitous character. They refuse to see them all because Dany is "pretty" and because they bought into her "I DESERVE IT!" rants hook, line, and sinker.

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11 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Exactly. There's a reason why George refused all those adaption proposals who only wanted to focus on Dany.

Considering that George knew who she really was and where she was going, it would have been a travesty in the end. They probably would have killed Bran and made Dany the good queen of Westeros.

I'd have refused them too. That isn't his story. They can make their own story that ends that way. His doesn't.

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11 hours ago, RFL said:

The show was clear that she did not just stop at torching the Red Keep and Cersei and those who had sought refuge there.  She torched Kings Landing.  

It's not like she has never sacked a city after she'd won before.  Astapor, anyone?

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11 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

I can see that. I was indifferent towards Dany and Jon, but I won't be surprised if Dany fans stop reading the books.

Perhaps they'll instead reread her chapters, this time more closely looking for all the signs they'd missed before.

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