Loge Posted May 24, 2019 Share Posted May 24, 2019 Even if magic dies Westeros is still a fictitious world. Dunk and Egg works perfectly fine without magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted May 24, 2019 Share Posted May 24, 2019 11 hours ago, Queen Alysanne™ said: I disagree, the rising nature of the magic in ASOIAF is what makes the story unique IMO. Where LOTR we have magic dying, in ASOIAF it is the opposite and magic seems to be on the rise. The show had a good opportunity to incorporate several of the magical elements of the book such as glass candles, the stark's connections to their wolves, Dany's dragon dreams, Dorne's magic which has been hinted in the book, Marwyn the Mage etc. The list goes on. Them removing magic from the story is what ultimately led to the anti-climatic war against the others. I guess it's subjective in the end. To me the political maneuvering and interesting characters were what I enjoyed reading the most. Jon with the Others(Show failed us hugely there), Bran with Bloodraven, Melisandre and the other Red Priests, even Dany and her dragons in some ways, just seemed to be points where the story stalled to me. Even where many of the plot holes seem to lay. How much of our time is Qaithe going to be wasting ranting on about cryptic half truths(I swear she's just trying to make Dany trip over herself and distrust everyone around her, but that's another topic). I guess you can argue magic is "on the rise" but that's because it fell and they're trying to get a fraction of what they had back. Which is a trope in a lot of stories, so maybe that's why it's not really capturing my interest. All too often is just leaves the door open for some deus ex machina scenario that just makes you facepalm too. Though I guess you could say Bran doing something like that instead of just going to his happy place would've been way more satisfying than Arya just jumping out of nowhere. Though on that subject it still amazes me that Dany was the only one to question Bran "seeing Jon's ancestry in the trees." Maybe the books will give us something more.... magical. If we get them. I might have liked it if Drogon was shown laying a clutch of eggs or something at the end. Could symbolize that magic was in the world to stay again, instead of just seemed doomed to fade away again, as the show ending would suggest combined with what we know from the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gendelsdottir Posted May 25, 2019 Share Posted May 25, 2019 14 hours ago, Targaryen Peas said: Interesting way to explain it (never heard about these novels, so I will try and read them!) I tend to agree, I just can't see the point of creating a whole fantastic world, only to say "the only way for people to live here, is to kill the magical elements". To me, it doesn't serve the genre. If magic is presented as an unequivocal "bad" that must be wiped out in the name of progress, this should be supported in the narrative! There are ways this could be done well. Various pressure groups could maneuver, form alliances, and fight against each other, either to advance magic or bring it down. They might be acting out of pure self-interest, or in service to a greater good. Magic itself can be shown to help some, harm others, or a combination thereof. If magic is bad, what are the alternatives? What benefits do they bring? For whom? This could make for one hell of a story. Aaaaannd there are ways it can be done badly. In the show, various bits & pieces of magic were introduced, then simply dropped without explanation. Our gaze was directed elsewhere - "Okay, forget about warging & visions & blood magic; they were never the point - this is what's important." And we were given a power struggle divorced from most of its original context. It's been a long time since I've read the Dragonriders of Pern books, but it's my impression that they've held up very well since 1967 when the first two novellas appeared in print. Such entities as Warner Brothers and Ronald D. Moore have shown interest in making screen adaptations. (Oh gods, here we go again! ) I enjoyed those books immensely, and recommend them without hesitation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potsk Posted May 25, 2019 Share Posted May 25, 2019 I wonder what ASOIAF would be like if it went full Elder Scrolls and magic was just some casual thing you can get a college degree in. Ironically it would remove the magic of the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targaryen Peas Posted May 25, 2019 Author Share Posted May 25, 2019 2 hours ago, Gendelsdottir said: Aaaaannd there are ways it can be done badly. In the show, various bits & pieces of magic were introduced, then simply dropped without explanation. Our gaze was directed elsewhere - "Okay, forget about warging & visions & blood magic; they were never the point - this is what's important." And we were given a power struggle divorced from most of its original context. It's been a long time since I've read the Dragonriders of Pern books, but it's my impression that they've held up very well since 1967 when the first two novellas appeared in print. Such entities as Warner Brothers and Ronald D. Moore have shown interest in making screen adaptations. (Oh gods, here we go again! ) I enjoyed those books immensely, and recommend them without hesitation. The show probably got too big for them, and they just rushed with what they like/wanted to show us. I hope GRRM will explain things in a better way. As for the Dragonriders, I will definitely try and read them soon! 1 hour ago, Potsk said: I wonder what ASOIAF would be like if it went full Elder Scrolls and magic was just some casual thing you can get a college degree in. Ironically it would remove the magic of the story. But it doesn't seem that in ASOIAF magic is hard to get. It's only in Westeros where there's not much access to it. In Essos fire priest are everywhere, for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticWeirwood Posted May 25, 2019 Share Posted May 25, 2019 On 5/24/2019 at 8:36 AM, Loge said: Even if magic dies Westeros is still a fictitious world. Dunk and Egg works perfectly fine without magic. That's very interesting. I'd never thought of that before, but you're right. There's a bit of hidden magic in the tale of the Mystery Knight, but not so you'd notice without understanding that Bloodraven is a skinchanger and a sorcerer and how he was using animals for surveillance and Melisandre-style gem-magic for a glamour faking his appearance as she did with Mance and herself. Plus it doesn’t seem to affect the plot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beardy the Wildling Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 On 5/23/2019 at 10:43 AM, Loge said: if they even read the books. Given they claimed Sam was their favourite 'non-POV character' and referred to Dickon as his older brother, I think it's safe to say at the very least they don't care about the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Hedge Posted June 5, 2019 Share Posted June 5, 2019 On 5/25/2019 at 5:49 AM, Gendelsdottir said: Aaaaannd there are ways it can be done badly. In the show, various bits & pieces of magic were introduced, then simply dropped without explanation. Our gaze was directed elsewhere - "Okay, forget about warging & visions & blood magic; they were never the point - this is what's important." And we were given a power struggle divorced from most of its original context. Exactly! What did Varys see in the fire? Who the hell is Quaithe? Who sent the Direwolves? If there is just one 'master of them all' NK, what was he doing the last 8000 years? Ok, yeah, replenished his tribe from Craster's sacrifices the last 40 years, fine. If he had other people make offerings all along then he would have thousands of WWs, right? Some of the warlocks of Qarth survived in the show as well as they tried to assassinate Dany on the docks with the scorpion (the arachnid, not the dragon-killing marvel of technology) when Ser Barry rescues her. What happened to them? And the purpose of the FM was purely to give Arya the skills to climb a tree and jump down with precision? What was Mel doing in Essos before she came back for the short night? Kinvara and company just happy to let Mel light up a few Arrakhs by herself? To what extent can Bran see visions of the future? He had that vision of Drogon over KL when he received the data dump from BR, was that all? Does Bran have green dreams? Will he have green dreams now that he's in KL with no Weirwood tree. Sure, not all questions can be answered by every series, but to leave so many open? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
It_spelt_Magalhaes Posted June 5, 2019 Share Posted June 5, 2019 6 hours ago, Ser Hedge said: Exactly! What did Varys see in the fire? Who the hell is Quaithe? Who sent the Direwolves? If there is just one 'master of them all' NK, what was he doing the last 8000 years? Ok, yeah, replenished his tribe from Craster's sacrifices the last 40 years, fine. If he had other people make offerings all along then he would have thousands of WWs, right? Some of the warlocks of Qarth survived in the show as well as they tried to assassinate Dany on the docks with the scorpion (the arachnid, not the dragon-killing marvel of technology) when Ser Barry rescues her. What happened to them? And the purpose of the FM was purely to give Arya the skills to climb a tree and jump down with precision? What was Mel doing in Essos before she came back for the short night? Kinvara and company just happy to let Mel light up a few Arrakhs by herself? To what extent can Bran see visions of the future? He had that vision of Drogon over KL when he received the data dump from BR, was that all? Does Bran have green dreams? Will he have green dreams now that he's in KL with no Weirwood tree. Sure, not all questions can be answered by every series, but to leave so many open? Which is why I'm tempted to go over to the 'Important character amputated upon translating from book to show' and claim it's the whole supernatural element. Sure there’s talk of the Red Priests and Mel's shadow baby, we see the WW but where did they really come from, we get Sparrow!Euron, or Urine, but what of his ambitions and higher motives, or Victarion, we see the Children, but what do we truly know of them? It's like magic is an afterthought, a bit of bling that doesn’t make sense, just there to look pretty. What about the Maesters? Their take on magic versus the knowledge they 'own'? What of human societal development as opposed to the chokehold of mythos and magic? Can mankind advance or merely hobble along at the whims of gods and monsters? The conflict of humanity or within a single person, trying to survive when confronted with entities that could 'mash'em like peas'. I guess that was just too much for tv, was it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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