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Why Did the Show Turn on Jon?

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3 hours ago, Darryk said:

They've never been good at writing him, they've always written him as a boy scout who is not particularly bright, whereas in the books he is honorable but also cunning and pragmatic. But by season 8 he had basically became a glorified extra.

The guy who, at the beginning of the series, was the only one who saw the real threat and tried to mobilize the realms to fight it, becomes a character completely stripped of all agency; not only does season 8 Jon Snow know nothing, he also does nothing, unless someone else tells him to. His sole contribution to the Battle of Winterfell, which he entire journey has built up, was to yell at a dragon.  

They couldn't even give him the heroic moment of rejecting the throne and choosing self-imposed exile so as to prevent further bloodshed; even that had to be because someone else said so.

 

^ This. D&D really hated this character, and I believe did so from the very beginning. The only reason they were forced to have him as a central character on the show is because that’s how the books were structured. However, their frat boy morality was so opposed to a morally good character that they decided to sideline him from the very beginning. They couldn’t wrap their brains around someone being good in fiction or in the real world, that would be so boring for them.

Jon Snow wasn’t badass enough for them, he was the cliche good guy so they didn’t have much use for him. Until they discovered Kit Harington’s ability with a sword. Then they decided to make him the greatest swordsman and put Kit in as many battles as they could. If D&D cared to read the books in its entirety they would have seen that Jon Snow in the books is not really a great swordsman, but is a good strategist and leader. Like you said, he’s someone who is cunning and pragmatic and not the naive idiot the showrunners made him into. In the last couple of seasons, considering the number of times show!Jon says “we should work together” or “she is my queen”, it almost seemed like these were the only words this dumb character they created knew.

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26 minutes ago, RFL said:

So if a subject of a leader determines said leaders actions are tyrannical in nature said subject has the moral justification to kill them?  What about someone who authorizes air strikes that kill innocents?  Or authorizes the use of nuclear weapons?  What is the line that allows it?   As noted clearly the nobility of Westeros was not overly disturbed by the destruction of Kings Landing.  They branded Jaime as dishonorable for his role in preventing the same. They were remarkably undisturbed with Cersei’s destruction of the Sept.  in the past they bent the knee when confronted with similar weapons. In Westeros at least Danys actions are not unprecedented. 

The nobility didn't know about the wildfire and Aerys' wishes to burn them all. They thought Jaime just killed him on a whim to benefit his family. 

There is no evidence in the show that the nobility doesn't care about the destruction in E5.

Cersei's destruction of the sept was similar to what Maegor did. Dany went even further and destroyed the entire city of half a million people. She exterminated people like they were vermin. She flew her dragon up and down the streets like she was plowing a field. Then she gave a speech that indicated she would continue to do this to other places. 

Dany is the one who makes air strikes and has nuclear weapons. No one else has that ability and her actions are unprecedented. 

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Posted (edited)

They really did a complete rewrite of Jon. D&D did a hatchet job on this guy, insisting in interviews that Jon could never tell a lie. 

But Jon has lied many times in the book so far and I expect him to lie again at some point with Dany. 

1. He lied so he wouldn’t have to hang out with his friends: “My lord, will you sup with us? Owen, shove over and make room for Jon.”

Quote

Jon wanted nothing more. No, he had to tell himself, those days are gone. The realization twisted in his belly like a knife. They had chosen him to rule. The Wall was his, and their lives were his as well. A lord may love the men that he commands, he could hear his lord father saying, but he cannot be a friend to them. One day he may need to sit in judgment on them, or send them forth to die. “Another day,” the lord commander lied. “Edd, best see to your own supper. I have work to finish.”

2. He lied to his best friend about why his girlfriend was crying:

Quote

“I will.” Sam sounded relieved. “My lord, if I might ask … I saw Gilly leaving. She was almost crying.”
“Val sent her to plead for Mance again,” Jon lied, and they talked for a while of Mance and Stannis and Melisandre of Asshai, until the raven ate the last corn kernel and screamed, “Blood.”
“I am sending Gilly away,” Jon said. “Her and the boy. We will need to find another wet nurse for his milk brother.”

3. He lied to the wildlings about the defenses at the Wall:

Quote

After each day’s march the Magnar summoned him to ask shrewd sharp questions about Castle Black, its garrison and defenses. Jon lied where he dared and feigned ignorance a few times, but Grigg the Goat and Errok listened as well, and they knew enough to make Jon careful. Too blatant a lie would betray him. But the truth was terrible. Castle Black had no defenses, but for the Wall itself.

4. He lied to Mance about his loyalties and lied about belonging to Ygritte:

Quote

“Ygritte stepped in front of Jon. “You can’t kill a man for lying to protect them as was his brothers.”
“They are still his brothers,” declared Styr.
“They’re not,” insisted Ygritte. “He never killed me, like they told him. And he slew the Halfhand, we all saw.”
Jon’s breath misted the air. If I lie to him, he’ll know. He looked Mance Rayder in the eyes, opened and closed his burned hand. “I wear the cloak you gave me, Your Grace.”
“A sheepskin cloak!” said Ygritte. “And there’s many a night we dance beneath it, too!”
Jarl laughed, and even Harma Dogshead smirked. “Is that the way of it, Jon Snow?” asked Mance Rayder, mildly. “Her and you?”
It was easy to lose your way beyond the Wall. Jon did not know that he could tell honor from shame anymore, or right from wrong. Father forgive me. “Yes,” he said.

5. He lied to Mance about how many men were at the Fist:

Quote

"Them. Three hundred of them.” Whatever is asked, the Halfhand said. So why do I feel so craven? “Two hundred from Castle Black, and one hundred from the Shadow Tower.”
“There’s a truer song than the one you sang in my tent.” Mance looked to Harma Dogshead. “How many horses have we found?”
“More’n a hundred,” that huge woman replied, “less than two. There’s more dead to the east, under the snow, hard t’ know how many.” Behind her stood her banner bearer, holding a pole with a dog’s head on it, fresh enough to still be leaking blood.
“You should never have lied to me, Jon Snow,” said Mance.
“I … I know that.” What could he say?”

6. He lied about his reasons to avoid fucking Ygritte:

Quote

“Do you mislike the girl?” Tormund asked him as they passed another twenty mammoths, these bearing wildlings in tall wooden towers instead of giants.
“No, but I … ” What can I say that he will believe? “I am still too young to wed.”

7. He lied by sin of omission to Ygritte:

Quote

“And when I’m free,” he said slowly, “will I be free to go?”
“Sure you will.” She had a warm smile, despite her crooked teeth. “And we’ll be free to kill you. It’s dangerous being free, but most come to like the taste o’ it.” She put her gloved hand on his leg, just above the knee. “You’ll see.”
I will, thought Jon. I will see, and hear, and learn, and when I have I will carry the word back to the Wall. The wildlings had taken him for an oathbreaker, but in his heart he was still a man of the Night’s Watch.

8. He lied to his girlfriend and pretended to be hers forever and ever:

Quote

“You’re mine,” she whispered. “Mine, as I’m yours. And if we die, we die. All men must die, Jon Snow. But first we’ll live.”
“Yes.” His voice was thick. “First we’ll live.”
She grinned at that, showing Jon the crooked teeth that he had somehow come to love. Wildling to the bone, he thought again, with a sick sad feeling in the pit of his stomach.

9. He didn’t tell his friends that they would all probably be dead soon:

Quote

Every day he spent among the wildlings made what he had to do that much harder. He was going to have to find some way to betray these men, and when he did they would die. He did not want their friendship, any more than he wanted Ygritte’s love…The worst of the lot was Del, a horsefaced youth near Jon’s own age, who would talk dreamily of this wildling girl he meant to steal. “She’s lucky, like your Ygritte. She’s kissed by fire.” Jon had to bite his tongue. He didn’t want to know about Del’s girl or Bodger’s mother, the place by the sea that Henk the Helm came from, how Grigg yearned to visit the green men on the Isle of Faces, or the time a moose had chased Toefinger up a tree. 

10. He lied to his best friend, for the second time, about the fucked up shit he did to his girlfriend, and Aemon clocks that it was a choice indicating maturity:

Quote

“She nursed them both and loved them both,” said Aemon, “but not alike. No mother loves all her children the same, not even the Mother Above. Gilly did not leave the child willingly, I am certain. What threats the Lord Commander made, what promises, I can only guess … but threats and promises there surely were.”
“No. No, that’s wrong. Jon would never …”
“Jon would never. Lord Snow did. Sometimes there is no happy choice, Sam, only one less grievous than the others.”

11. He lies to Mormont about the condition of his burned hand. 

Quote

“Are you well, Snow?” Lord Mormont asked, scowling.
“Well,” his raven squawked. “Well.”
“I am, my lord,” Jon lied . . . loudly, as if that could make it true. “And you?”

12. He intentionally lies to Stannis about the characteristics of Mance's son vs. Crasters to hide his ruse. 

Quote

“Melisandre touched the ruby at her neck. “Gilly is giving suck to Dalla’s son as well as her own. It seems cruel of you to part our little prince from his milk brother, my lord.”
Careful now, careful. “Mother’s milk is all they share. Gilly’s son is larger and more robust. He kicks the prince and pinches him, and shoves him from the breast. Craster was his father, a cruel man and greedy, and blood tells.”

Later, he admits that if Stannis found out it would be treason. So Jon is already willing to commit treason when necessary. 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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On 5/22/2019 at 4:03 PM, RFL said:

 

 

Arya kills Greyworm (who brought no allies to the council?).  "Greyworm" tells the unsullied all is well and they are sailing back across the narrow sea.  

You did see the Unsullied that lined the entrance to the Dragon Pit, didn't you?

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On 5/22/2019 at 7:17 PM, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

 

However I thought it was stunning they tried to have him rationalise Dany's actions. Not even Ned was that stupid. Ned's backbone was shown in Tyrion and not Jon.

 

He loved her though. And we all know what love is the death of.

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A humanist falls in love with an egoist and gives up all his principles to defend her. Wow I cant wait to read it. <_<

So GRRM  intends for Jon to simply become Jorah. 

This entire thing is ridiculous.

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You did see the Unsullied that lined the entrance to the Dragon Pit, didn't you?

I did not.  

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What bugs me is that jons heritage counted for for fuck all...if it was not revealed jon and dany would have been happyish, no KL burned and they would have married uniting the realm.

Guess this would have been too happy  an ending...

He just tagged along the whole season. I get the impression kit hated the script

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And who confirmed and then insisted that Jon be told about it?  This is why I reject the idea of a neutral Brann who just happened to fall into the throne

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2 minutes ago, Sir Hedge of Hog said:

What bugs me is that jons heritage counted for for fuck all...if it was not revealed jon and dany would have been happyish, no KL burned and they would have married uniting the realm.

Guess this would have been too happy  an ending...

He just tagged along the whole season. I get the impression kit hated the script

Its all about them(maybe including Martin) subverting our expectations for any competent action on the part of the protagonists. Stories can't have good(or even believable) endings because the writers expect their viewers to be a mix of emotional masochists and staunch supporters of the status quo.

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14 hours ago, RFL said:

Jon empathizes with people.  The wildings has been dehumanized his whole life for instance. 

But Jon lived with them for a time, did he not? He never lived in KL or anywhere in the south, and chances are that his empathy for people who failed to support their efforts against the Others wouldn't exactly be that high. Especially not to people who also were the mortal enemies of his family since the wars began.

I mean, you do recall that he tried to war against the Boltons and helped Stannis in his campaigns despite the fact that he should protect them from the Others, too?

14 hours ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

Didn't even think about this. What was he going to do, kill all of the Northern soldiers who failed to hold? But he might consider he was honorbound to?

I know we are repeatedly told the North Remembers. Do the soldiers truly distinguish individuals from the people that stood to watch Ned be executed?

And bland!Jon would be just the type to ignore duty and even allegiance for the ideal of the 'right thing'.

I hope the character never becomes this one dimensional idiot we saw on the show.

Just ask Lord Wyman Manderly. Was Walda Frey involved in the Red Wedding? Not that we know. But he still fed her her own kinsmen and really enjoyed himself doing so. Not to mention his disgusting attitude towards the murdered Frey squire. What we can draw from that - as well as the clansmen attitude in ADwD (bathe in Bolton blood before they die) - is that killings are going to be indiscriminate. There will be no quarter giving to any person associated with either the Freys or the Boltons. They will be all killed.

13 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I'm sure the the guy who saw the injustice of condemning people to death because of an arbitrary geographic barrier will just say "oh well they deserved it they all betrayed my kweeeen!" Death by fire is the purest death right? And death by ice zombies is the "real fight." As a humanist Jon Snow would absolutely not give a damn about people in this location. But he will care about people in other locations. 

Again, he lived among them. And he wants to help them not out of the goodness of his heart - he knows there is bad blood between the North and the wildlings - he wants to help them to help the Watch and the Seven Kingdoms because he doesn't want that the Others use them as their pawns.

But I'm sure he would never harm any civilians would he ever get around to sack a Bolton/Frey-controlled Winterfell or a Bolton-controlled Dreadfort... ;-). Just as I'm sure the wildlings he planned to unleash on the North would have never raped any women or sacked any of the places the conquered during the campaign... We never learn what the overall point of the burning of KL was supposed to be in the show - but it certainly has strategic value as a symbol. Resistance is futile. Like it was done with Harrenhal.

In the books we cannot really expect such a burning of KL, anyway. Dragonfire does not cause buildings to explode, and while KL is built mainly of wood in the books, wooden structures covered in snow and ice don't burn (well). Not to mention that Dany's dragons are far too small to ever become a great danger to a city. If they are ever unleashed on KL - or a city of comparable size - both the dragons and their riders should be shot down.

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13 hours ago, teej6 said:

^ This. D&D really hated this character, and I believe did so from the very beginning. The only reason they were forced to have him as a central character on the show is because that’s how the books were structured. However, their frat boy morality was so opposed to a morally good character that they decided to sideline him from the very beginning. They couldn’t wrap their brains around someone being good in fiction or in the real world, that would be so boring for them.

Jon Snow wasn’t badass enough for them, he was the cliche good guy so they didn’t have much use for him. Until they discovered Kit Harington’s ability with a sword. Then they decided to make him the greatest swordsman and put Kit in as many battles as they could. If D&D cared to read the books in its entirety they would have seen that Jon Snow in the books is not really a great swordsman, but is a good strategist and leader. Like you said, he’s someone who is cunning and pragmatic and not the naive idiot the showrunners made him into. In the last couple of seasons, considering the number of times show!Jon says “we should work together” or “she is my queen”, it almost seemed like these were the only words this dumb character they created knew.

No, they just don't give crap about characters. No character even remotely resembles George's characters in the books. This is not exclusive to Jon Snow. But I tend to think that Harrington's non-existing acting talents and his way of talking make the TV Jon one of the least alluring characters in the entire show.

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Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

In the books we cannot really expect such a burning of KL, anyway. Dragonfire does not cause buildings to explode, 

No, but apparently the pyromancers’ wildfire very much does so.

Edited by CrypticWeirwood

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1 hour ago, Sir Hedge of Hog said:

What bugs me is that jons heritage counted for for fuck all...if it was not revealed jon and dany would have been happyish, no KL burned and they would have married uniting the realm.

It was immensely important in many, many, many ways.

One of the most important was that it showed us that Daenerys didn’t actually give one flipping fig about who the so-called “rightful heir to the Iron Throne” was, only about her own destructive obsession.

It also fueled many other critical plot points. It underpins almost the whole story. Without that, everything means nothing and nothing means anything.

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Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Again, he lived among them. And he wants to help them not out by the goodness of his heart - he knows there is bad blood between the North and the wildlings - he wants to help them to help the Watch and the Seven Kingdoms because he doesn't want that the Others use them as their pawns

He's a humanist and a realist. He doesnt see divisions between people and this reflects the authors' views toward immigrants and refugees in the U.S. His mission to Hardhome wasnt purely about them becoming zombies, he couldn't believe Selyse was condemning women and children to death. At the same time he's focused beyond just the wildlings, as you said. I think his views are a mix of humanism and realism. My point was that Jon would always stick by that view even if it meant killing his completely unworthy kweeeeeen.

57 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

In the books we cannot really expect such a burning of KL, anyway. Dragonfire does not cause buildings to explode, and while KL is built mainly of wood in the books, wooden structures covered in snow and ice don't burn (well). Not to mention that Dany's dragons are far too small to ever become a great danger to a city. If they are ever unleashed on KL - or a city of comparable size - both the dragons and their riders should be shot down.

I believe the author has said that Dany's dragons will be "tougher than anything we've seen since Aegon the Conqueror" (x).

I think this is what the Stallion that Mounts the World and a "warrior of fire" and "fire for death" was referring to - the destruction of KL. In Clash, she says she "doesn't want to turn Kings Landing into a ruin of unquiet ghosts." Well...

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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14 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

No, but apparently the pyromancers’ wildfire very much does so.

Which was never stored in the upper floors of the buildings, so dragons should be able to burn down the entire city without actually causing any wildfire to explode since whatever is left from Aerys II's days - if there is any left - should be in some caverns and cellars beneath the buildings.

9 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

He's a humanist and a realist. He doesnt see divisions between people and this reflects the authors' views toward immigrants and refugees in the U.S. His mission to Hardhome wasnt purely about them becoming zombies, he couldn't believe Selyse was condemning women and children to death. At the same time he's focused beyond just the wildlings, as you said. I think his views are a mix of humanism and realism. My point was that Jon would always stick by that view even if it meant killing his completely unworthy kweeeeeen.

Yeah, because he lived among them. Before he did that he murdered an innocent sleeping wildling and nearly killed Ygritte. Not to mention how he rejected the notion of helping Gilly back at Craster's.

You are aware of the fact that Jon Snow is very much in love with Daenerys, right? And that she is also his aunt. What he did made him not only a murderer and a traitor but a kinslayer as well. And for what? Because of a phantom threat to his cousins.

But I don't buy the notion that Jon is going to continue to be some sentimental nice guy after he comes back from death. If KL were burned after the Others are defeated - which I don't buy either, because there would be literally no need for that - nobody among the victors would care. They would have lived through so much shit that most of them would be barely human anymore.

9 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I believe the author has said that Dany's dragons will be "tougher than anything we've seen since Aegon the Conqueror" (x).

I think this is what the Stallion that Mounts the World and a "warrior of fire" and "fire for death" was referring to - the destruction of KL. In Clash, she says she "doesn't want to turn Kings Landing into a ruin of unquiet ghosts." Well...

Well, then I guess Dany is only going to arrive in Westeros in 10-20 years or so. Because there is no way Drogon is going to grow even remotely to the same size as Balerion in just a couple of months - or a year. George can say what he wants, that's not going to happen. The dragons may grow somewhat bigger, but not even remotely to the size that they could burn down cities.

If KL is going to be destroyed it should be sacked, not burned to the ground. And the Dothraki don't need dragons to sack a place. They can do that all by themselves.

But I actually consider it more likely that Dany is going to sack and burn Lannisport. If there as a family she might want to eradicate root and stem it could indeed be the Lannisters. But they won't hold KL by the time she arrives. Aegon will be there, or Euron, perhaps, but no Lannister king or queen. And even if the Lannisters were there, the Kingslanders would let her in any case. She is a Targaryen, and KL is a Targaryen city.

In any case, though, it remains a pretty strong fact that nobody is going to think about killing Dany just because she sacked/destroyed a city, nor because she killed thousands of innocents. It might not help her popularity much, but it is not something that is going to turn her own people against her. For that, she would really have to start arbitrarily kill her own people - and if she did that then her own Dothraki, freedmen, Unsullied, etc. could also take her out. The story would not need Jon for that.

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18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Which was never stored in the upper floors of the buildings, so dragons should be able to burn down the entire city without actually causing any wildfire to explode since whatever is left from Aerys II's days - if there is any left - should be in some caverns and cellars beneath the buildings.

I dunno, you tell me. The green wildfire explosions in S8E5 were coming from weird places.

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2 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

I dunno, you tell me. The green wildfire explosions in S8E5 were coming from weird places.

Oh, sure, in the show they had that. I was talking about the possibility of the burning of KL in the books. That I can't see happening by means of dragonfire in winter (unless winter suddenly means bright weather and no snow for weeks). Wildfire certainly could help burn down the city even in winter, but that would then have to be produced and distributed by people in the city, not by the people attacking it.

I certainly could see Euron/Cersei prepare to burn down the city with wildfire, not sure whether Aegon would do that, though.

And Dany I see doing everything in her power to not burn down the city and castle of her ancestors. She has never seen the place in her life, she likely would not be particularly keen to destroy it before she has walked through the streets of the city and through the hallways of the Red Keep. If she were pushed to such an extreme measure she must be in a very weak or desperate situation.

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18 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

That's nonsense. Accidental homicide is not murder: it's manslaughter.  Which is a crime, but it's not murder.

And self-defence has never, ever, ever been murder. Having to take someone's life to save your own or others' lives has never been murder, either.

There was no element of self-defence.

Dany was plainly out of her mind by the end, but she wasn't threatening him or his family.

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2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If she were pushed to such an extreme measure she must be in a very weak or desperate situation

I may have been blindsided, and call me out if it's something you see differently, but the way it happened in the infamous Bells scene, I had a moment where I thought: 'Oh shit, they're surrendering to HIM, after she just single handedly brought the city to it's knees? I have a bad feeling about this.'

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