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darmody

Why Did the Show Turn on Jon?

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Okay, they gave the Night King kill to Arya because they wuv kick-ass ninja turtle girl and all the build-up between Jon and Ice Satan led people to believe they would clash. Because not to do so would be teasing. But expectations had to be subverted. 

What does Jon do instead? Nothing, until he stabs his lady love at the end. In the meantime he's inert. He 's allowed two lines of dialogue ("Ah dun wannitt," "you ah mah queen), and struggles between desire and ickiness as regards Dany I guess. 

Then, when he does get to be heoric or tragic or something, first he has to try and rationalize motiveless mass murder of perhaps a million people. Then there's an awkward scene and...that's it. We don't see what happens next, and are left to guess he walked up to an Unsullied, tapped him on the shoulder, and said, "[clears throat] Terribly sorry, but I just assassinated your queen."

This is aggravating, because it sets up the farcical, drama-free remainder of the episode. Jon doesn't get a fight. We don't get any payoff for the growing tension between Greyworm and he. (Jon hasn't dueled since the Battle of the Bastards, wtf?) Jon had no escape plan, though escape seemed easy given Drogon makes an incredible ruckus without arousing immediate suspicion. Even if the Unsullied were to show up the moment we cut away, Jon had plenty of time to flee. 

Upshot is Jon is captured. Dany wasn't ever really queen, so he's a hostage of the Unsullied and at most guilty of kinslaying. A council is convened, and the great lords of Westeros plus a bunch of interlopers (Brienne, Sam, Arya, Bran, Davos) are awaiting...what? Tyrion is brought out...why? Jon is still alive...why? Jon is not present...why? This entire scene is so fanfic-y that I can't analyze it in earnest. 

Not to get too bogged down, essentially we are: deciding Tyrion/Jon's fates and picking a new king. Right off the bat, this council is stacked with people related to Jon by blood, extended family, indirect oath, and/or alliance. We have his former best friend, his second-in-command, his cousins, Edmure Tully and Sweet Robin who are closely tied to the Starks through the Tully sisters, and a newly-minted knight in the service of his cousin. No one, not a single person, brings up the fact that he has a claim to the throne. Nor that he is either the King in the North or at least the Lord of Winterfell. Because the Northmen acclaimed him. 

What the hell? Why? Because he happens to be in Unsullied custody? Yet the traitorous patricidal convicted regicide Tyrion gets reinstated in a place of honor? More than that, he frickin picks the king!

 

Not that Jon's punishment is all that bad. The Night's Watch doesn't exist anymore. There's no great danger up there. He's with his buddies and his dog. Yet he looks miserable. And isn't he over worrying about fathering children now? Doesn't he want a family? 

In any case, it's a ridiculous set-up. If the North is independent how does the crown control the Night's Watch? What would prevent Jon from leaving the second Unsullied and Dothraki were gone? Nothing. 

But they need those shots of him being perma-grumpy, living in a tundra for no reason. Because why? He loved Dany allegedly and since bells made her lose her mind he must suffer for the rest of his life?

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Because Kit Harrington had criticized D&D's writing so he had to be punished.

It's just like how they loved Lena Headey so they kept Cersei around for far longer than she should have been and then magically became the most competent ruler and schemer in the world.

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They gave the Night King kill to Arya to parallel Jon. That is the entire reason the Night King exists in the show, to be an opposite to Daenerys. Ice King/Fire Queen. Arya Stark stabs ice in the heart, Aegon Targaryen stabs fire in the heart.

However I thought it was stunning they tried to have him rationalise Dany's actions. Not even Ned was that stupid. Ned's backbone was shown in Tyrion and not Jon.

Jon could not be King because the council must elect a King to determine the fate of himself and Tyrion. Greyworm would never allow it. Its easier to choose someone else than start more bloodshed.

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Ah the more I think about it the more blatantly stupid basically every plot point that happens after Dany's death turns out to be. They might as well have instituted Sam's proposal; it could hardly have seemed more out of left field than the epilogue we got. And Winter! Winter has come, saw and made right off again.

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This is pure speculation, but I think it had to do with some weird level of personal jealousy regarding Kit Harrington being a hot guy, and also I expect the showrunners with their fake auteur sensibility, are probably hostile to the idea of good guys and heroes, so, the result is that they not only took away Jon Snow's book story, but made him an impotent bystander at best and at worst a bumbling fool who never does anything right, which is not at all how he has ever been portrayed in the books.

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5 hours ago, darmody said:

But they need those shots of him being perma-grumpy, living in a tundra for no reason. Because why? He loved Dany allegedly and since bells made her lose her mind he must suffer for the rest of his life?

I don't think he suffers. What he got is not a punishment. 

He just needed to move North so that the story could give room to the rest of the Stark children to shine - Sansa as Queen in the North and Bran in Westeros. Arya is a happy traveller after all and that's all. 

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Greyworm would never allow it.
  Greyworm vs Arya?  I mean its not like we have a chain of command with the unsullied ever show.  Greyworm is the chain of command.  

And don't give me the "its a diplomatic" situation.  Arya has already threatened to slit one throat,  Sansa and Tyrion are running rough shod over the concept of "Roberts Rules of Order" already.  

 

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Maybe they finally realised that Kit can't act so decided to minimise his part and limit him to saying "She's my queen" and I don't want it".

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35 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

They gave the Night King kill to Arya to parallel Jon. That is the entire reason the Night King exists in the show, to be an opposite to Daenerys. Ice King/Fire Queen. Arya Stark stabs ice in the heart, Aegon Targaryen stabs fire in the heart.

However I thought it was stunning they tried to have him rationalise Dany's actions. Not even Ned was that stupid. Ned's backbone was shown in Tyrion and not Jon.

Jon could not be King because the council must elect a King to determine the fate of himself and Tyrion. Greyworm would never allow it. Its easier to choose someone else than start more bloodshed.

Bran and Sansa become Monarchs then they "punished" Jon to go to the Wall a place Jon famously chose to go to in the past.  Turns out Greyworm is an idiot. 

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33 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

This is pure speculation, but I think it had to do with some weird level of personal jealousy regarding Kit Harrington being a hot guy, and also I expect the showrunners with their fake auteur sensibility, are probably hostile to the idea of good guys and heroes, so, the result is that they not only took away Jon Snow's book story, but made him an impotent bystander at best and at worst a bumbling fool who never does anything right, which is not at all how he has ever been portrayed in the books.

It's hard not to think that all their digs at Jon being little, as well as the extreme dumbing down of his character, is based on anything except some sort of not even subconscious jealousy of Kit himself and of decent guys like the character of Jon is supposed to be.  They've shown their preference of personality type, I think, in their Lannister loving, minus Jaime, of course. 

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Because they really go for cheap twists. And since it was rather obvious that Jon and/or Dany would be the ones defeating the Lich King they changed that. Just as they changed who would be king in the end because one expected that Jon would be the one if Dany was killed.

In general, doing what they did to Daenerys necessitated making all the other characters caricatures as well.

But one has to say that Jon's story is likely the one changed the most in the last couple of seasons, starting with his silly resurrection. The purpose of his true heritage was to make his lover jealous for irrational reasons, and he never had a story of his own.

He is just dumb-looking Kit Harrington getting fucked by life and other people. Even his act to murder his lover wasn't his own idea but something that was fed to him by the caricature of a character that referred to Varys as 'my best friend' (!).

But it is a mistake to think in terms of characters here. They only care about actors and what they can do. 

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Not to mention the fact they glossed right over the whole "Jon's parentage" revelation that should've been one of the series' greatest payoffs.  They glossed over the whole "came back back from the dead" bit too for that matter.  Never amounted to anything.

 

That whole great council scene only gets worse the more we think about it.  Why was Yara up there, which team is she on?  She outright claims to be on the side of Dany so shouldn't she be negotiating with Grey Work not against him.  If they weren't there to discus the selection of the king why did they assemble a great council anyway?  What side is Dorne on?  They declared for Dany, should they want Jon killed?

 

The last time a monarch in Westeros died without an heir we got four seasons of conflict, this time we get a five minute meeting led by Tyrion somehow.  Tyrion's speech by the way was a joke, and then a quick reveal that Bran knew this would all happen anyway? Pretty sure that makes him evil.

 

Bran won't be king for any longer than it takes all the other lords to go home and declare themselves independent like the North.  So about 15 minutes.

 

The Stormlands can rally around Gendry, the rightful heir.  The Dornish will do what the Dornish do and tell Bran to pound sand.  Bronn won't pay his taxes cause he probably doesn't know what they are.  The Vale will join the North since they are inexplicably under the control of Sansa anyway.  The Iron Islands have wanted independence from season 1.  Bran has no army or master of war.

 

At least Jon is spared from this dumpster fire.

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33 minutes ago, RFL said:

 

  Greyworm vs Arya?  I mean its not like we have a chain of command with the unsullied ever show.  Greyworm is the chain of command.  

And don't give me the "its a diplomatic" situation.  Arya has already threatened to slit one throat,  Sansa and Tyrion are running rough shod over the concept of "Roberts Rules of Order" already.  

 

Arya kills Greyworm. The Unsullied in the city kill the council before the Northerners outside get instructions.

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Arya kills Greyworm. The Unsullied in the city kill the council before the Northerners outside get instructions.

 

Arya kills Greyworm (who brought no allies to the council?).  "Greyworm" tells the unsullied all is well and they are sailing back across the narrow sea.  

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I agree, the whole setting in the end is stupid beyond words; has nothing to do with feudal society and how it works.. 

+ I still don't get what the f* were Sam, Bronn and Brienne doing on the council? In real medival society they wouldn't get a presence in front of the kings (people who "matter"), yet here they consult and pick one? Who are they to say "aye"? Wtf?

And all other lords just quitely accepting the rule out? No agenda of their own like Northern independence? Really?

Ah right, it was convinient... "While they just kind of forgot"

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My theroy is that they have never really liked Jon's character. I think they might have thought Jon, as a character, was too ... cliche for them. They wanted to subvert the story and thought by putting in all these twists (Arya killing the NK) that they will subvert the story and shock the viewers. But then what is left is a character who just goes around saying "she's my quuueeen" "I dont want it" and not much else. 

All my opinion, obviously.  

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5 hours ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

They gave the Night King kill to Arya to parallel Jon. That is the entire reason the Night King exists in the show, to be an opposite to Daenerys. Ice King/Fire Queen. Arya Stark stabs ice in the heart, Aegon Targaryen stabs fire in the heart.

However I thought it was stunning they tried to have him rationalise Dany's actions. Not even Ned was that stupid. Ned's backbone was shown in Tyrion and not Jon.

Jon could not be King because the council must elect a King to determine the fate of himself and Tyrion. Greyworm would never allow it. Its easier to choose someone else than start more bloodshed.

Your first paragraph makes little sense honestly. To parallel Jon ? Jon isn't like anyone else really. He isn't just ice like Arya or fire like Dany. He is both.  So that parallel makes zero sense in this context. The Night King doesn't exist in the show just to be an opposite to Dany. Heck, Dany didn't even know of his existence till almost the last season. Neither did Arya. Jon was THE ONE that was the Night Kings opposite for almost the entire show. I repeat, FOR ALMOST THE ENTIRE SHOW. Not just the last season. Those 2 go waaaaaaaay back. Even Bran is more of an opposite to the NK than Dany. No matter how much people try to justify Arya killing the NK, it will never make sense. 

Greyworm would never allow it ? hahahahahaha. He has no say in this matter. Bran does. And Bran could have easily executed all the unsullied and Greyworm if he wanted to. I mean they willingly killed so many innocent people. Someone that speaks of punishment for crimes surely would be ok with that as well ? Unless they're a hypocrite. Greyworm isn't the heir to the iron throne. He has NO say in anything.  I mean Arya could have executed him then and there. She could have easily wore his face and freed Jon. So many things could have happened that would have made more sense than pretending like Greyworm has a say in anything lol. FFS Tyrion, the one who was captured and was supposed to be killed, gets to chose the king lol, in front of Greyworm.

 

I fucking HATE how they portrayed Jon this season. During the last episode, even after so many innocent people died in front of him by Dany, he was still sucking up like a little emo bitch (excuse my language). I wanted to throw my drink at the screen for the way they have portrayed him this season. Such a weak B****.  Aggravating. I wanted him to go OFF on not just Dany but Greyworm and the rest as well. Even Tyrion showed more guts ffs. What stops Jon from hopping on Drogon and killing all of Danys armies really ? Drogon wouldn't have mind. Not like Jon would've been murdering innocent people. All of those soldiers are monsters for willingly enjoying and killing innocent children and women.  Just thinking about the moments where Arya sneaks up on Jon and Jon says, she is our queen UGHHHH !!! Then when he talks with Tyrion and he defends Dany UGGGGGGGGHHHH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Then when he confronts Dany and cries like a little weak ass b1tch. UGGGGGHHHH !!!!!! 

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