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GeorgeIAF

Daenerys should have supported Jon’s claim

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The show could have put Missy to good use as a sounding board for Dany and her paranoia, where we could hear her thoughts candidly as she confided in Missy and sought some advice.  

Of course that would have required a lot of attention to detail, nuance and heavy dialogue.  So, we didn't get any of that.

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Knugen said:

She had worked for it. Sure. But you can't rule the Kingdom without support and she knows this. Jon had the support and love that she needed and wanted, she wanted a TARG on the Throne. She could have had everything she wanted, by marrying Jon. 

She would have had love (From Jon and the people) the throne would have been theirs and most importantly her children(!) (If we assume she can have them, as they imply in the show after she comes to Westeros). 

D&D just sucks. 

I believe that she would have married him eventually after she had got the throne. (if she hadn't gone paranoid)

As we saw in the last episode she was into him all the way.

Edited by Nightwish

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What claim? He made no claim to throne others made it for him. There was only tension between them because of that jealous bitch Sansa.

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4 hours ago, David Selig said:

So Dany did all the work only for Jon to swoop in in the last second based on an unlikely story with no evidence except "My weird bro says so? That would have been just as bad as the actual dumb ending we got.

You mean the dragons did all of the work.

This part isn't directed to you btw just in general. I don't understand how people can defend her claim ''muh queen''. She is nothing without her dragons. Besides that, she is incredibly ignorant, incredibly entitled and would make for an awful ruler, zero knowledge about politics. Such a dangerous combo of bad traits. Even before they messed up the execution of her arc this season. Yet people were still cheering her to be worthy as the one to sit on the throne. Makes no sense.

 

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Just now, Gianna Dorenberg said:

You mean the dragons did all of the work.

This part isn't directed to you btw just in general. I don't understand how people can defend her claim ''muh queen''. She is nothing without her dragons. Besides that, she is incredibly ignorant, incredibly entitled and would make for an awful ruler, zero knowledge about politics. Such a dangerous combo of bad traits. Even before they messed up the execution of her arc this season. Yet people were still cheering her to be worthy as the one to sit on the throne. Makes no sense.

 

We're talking about Game of Thrones on this forum.

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12 hours ago, GeorgeIAF said:

Rhaegar loved Lyanna and sent his best men to protect Jon, risking losing a war for his safety.

Dany should have backed Jon and told him stories about Rhaegar and how much he loved him, also Bran could have played a more important part in telling him more info about his father and mother and in this way Jon maybe would have felt that it was his duty to sit on the Iron Throne given the sacrifices his father made for him.

But we didnt even get a mention from Jon about Rhaegar, at least a scene with him talking with Dany about his family and their heritage. 

Dany felt it was her duty and destiny to avenge her family, but I feel Jon could have done this too. Basically her mother and his father were dead because of his birth.

 

How much Rhaegar loved Jon?  Rhaegar never knew Jon, died before he was born; and probably expected him to be a girl, since he had a daughter and son already (at the time Jon was conceived, I believe) and wanted a girl so he'd have three heads of the dragon, which is a comparison to Aegon the Conqueror and his two sisters Rhaenys and Visenya (Rhaegar named his children by Elia Rhaenys and Aegon, so Lyanna's child was expected to be Visenya).  Also, neither Viserys or Daenerys ever knew that Rhaegar and Lyanna had a child.

Now, if GRRM had written all the scripts for the show; we might have had a Daenerys who in the final season would have initially welcomed a long-lost nephew, but not necessarily a lover who suddenly revealed that he just happened to be that long-lost nephew - the timing might have made her suspicious and ignited paranoia in her.  All that Jon has ever heard about Rhaegar Targaryen was that he abducted Jon's supposed aunt (really his mom) and thus caused the deaths of Jon's supposed uncle Brandon and actual grandfather Rickard, not to mention the deaths of thousands of people...Even if Jon were to find out that Lyanna consented to the elopement and was in love with Rhaegar; I doubt that would give Jon warm and filial feelings towards Rhaegar Targaryen; Jon will always be Ned Stark's son.

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9 hours ago, David Selig said:

So Dany did all the work only for Jon to swoop in in the last second based on an unlikely story with no evidence except "My weird bro says so? That would have been just as bad as the actual dumb ending we got.

Which I believe it was not brought up when then council of Lords were deciding who should be king. There were 4 people on that council who knew his true identity.

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4 hours ago, Gianna Dorenberg said:

You mean the dragons did all of the work.

This part isn't directed to you btw just in general. I don't understand how people can defend her claim ''muh queen''. She is nothing without her dragons. Besides that, she is incredibly ignorant, incredibly entitled and would make for an awful ruler, zero knowledge about politics. Such a dangerous combo of bad traits. Even before they messed up the execution of her arc this season. Yet people were still cheering her to be worthy as the one to sit on the throne. Makes no sense.

  

Agreed. I think it has to do with whole "beggar queen" schtick; same reason why Jon has much more appeal than Stannis, even though Stannis would have been better ruler than either one of them. She came from nothing (except, not really), and so people naturally rooted for her - and that stuck ever after.

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Posted (edited)

The fact that Dany didn't support Jon and instead she urged him not to tell anyone proves that Dany didn't care at all if a Targaeryen sits on the throne. It's no "the big bad Robert Baratheon stole the throne from my family and my family will take it back". No. The only thing she cared about is if she sits on the throne.

EDIT: Back in S1 she believed Viserys was the rightful king. He was older than she was, he had the better claim. Case closed, she respected it. Then Viserys died and Dany started to believe she is the one who is supposed to rule the 7K. This belief got only stronger and stronger as she got dragons, people treated her more or less with respect (because she had dragons) and she succeeded in conquering three cities. She got more and more power and she was convinced that it is her destiny, that she is a kind of messiah, a savior. Her mentality from S1 to S8 changed drastically. In S8 she was so full of herself that she wouldn't step aside even if her father came back from death. Jon's claim was even better than Viserys' one. And yet she still wanted the throne of herself. She didn't think even for a second about leaving the throne to Jon. She immediately thought about how to secure it for herself.

Edited by Nerevanin

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

The show could have put Missy to good use as a sounding board for Dany and her paranoia, where we could hear her thoughts candidly as she confided in Missy and sought some advice.  

 

A point which both actresses have made.

Edited by SeanF

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Nerevanin said:

The fact that Dany didn't support Jon and instead she urged him not to tell anyone proves that Dany didn't care at all if a Targaeryen sits on the throne. It's no "the big bad Robert Baratheon stole the throne from my family and my family will take it back". No. The only thing she cared about is if she sits on the throne.

EDIT: Back in S1 she believed Viserys was the rightful king. He was older than she was, he had the better claim. Case closed, she respected it. Then Viserys died and Dany started to believe she is the one who is supposed to rule the 7K. This belief got only stronger and stronger as she got dragons, people treated her more or less with respect (because she had dragons) and she succeeded in conquering three cities. She got more and more power and she was convinced that it is her destiny, that she is a kind of messiah, a savior. Her mentality from S1 to S8 changed drastically. In S8 she was so full of herself that she wouldn't step aside even if her father came back from death. Jon's claim was even better than Viserys' one. And yet she still wanted the throne of herself. She didn't think even for a second about leaving the throne to Jon. She immediately thought about how to secure it for herself.

I really have this question how she would leave the throne for John? You really want a person who has worked so hard to climb the ladder and created herself three dragons and two armies when all chances were against her to step away so that Jon can take the throne for which he hasn’t worked and hasn’t cared? 

This makes no sense; even if she had accepted to step down, Jon would have to raise an army to fight Cersei, would have to create political alliances that would stand up for him and actually believe Brans story, and he have would have to kill Cersei. Tyrion will probably be against him again to protect his family and they would take the long way to conquer. And as he didn’t have any mass weapons for destruction, he would be sitting outside of Kings Landing for another two seasons until all citizens inside starve to death. 

So it’s not even script convenient for him to take the throne, but nevertheless, he would need to want to make it happen and try to take the throne from Cersei on his own, apparently with his own weapons and army. Because certainly Dany would have no reason to lend him her weapons and armies after all she went through to get them. 

In this case she would just withdraw, take her armies and dragons back to mereen, and Jon would have an open field to claim his right. But he would need to work for it and being as ambitious as the rest of the characters that went for the throne. 

Edited by Nightwish

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20 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

I really have this question how she would leave the throne for John? You really want a person who has worked so hard to climb the ladder and created herself three dragons and two armies when all chances were against her to step away so that Jon can take the throne for which he hasn’t worked and hasn’t cared? 

This makes no sense; even if she had accepted to step down, Jon would have to raise an army to fight Cersei, would have to create political alliances that would stand up for him and actually believe Brans story, and he have would have to kill Cersei. Tyrion will probably be against him again to protect his family and they would take the long way to conquer. And as he didn’t have any mass weapons for destruction, he would be sitting outside of Kings Landing for another two seasons until all citizens inside starve to death. 

So it’s not even script convenient for him to take the throne, but nevertheless, he would need to want to make it happen and try to take the throne from Cersei on his own, apparently with his own weapons and army. Because certainly Dany would have no reason to lend him her weapons and armies after all she went through to get them. 

In this case she would just withdraw, take her armies and dragons back to mereen, and Jon would have an open field to claim his right. But he would need to work for it and being as ambitious as the rest of the characters that went for the throne. 

If Dany genuinly cared for the Targaeryen dynasty and not just for herself, she should have stepped aside. If she wasn't so selfish and with this "I'm the savior, bow down" complex. She knew (or thought - in the show there was nothing to suggest otherwise, unlike in the books) that she can't have children. Her kingdom would rise and fall with her. Jon, on the other hand, probably can father children. He is the future of house Targaeryen. To support his claim is what she would do if she wanted house Targaeryen to continue. If she wanted house Targaeryen to continue, Jon is a blessing for her.

It wouldn't be even that hard. She could publicly say that Jon is a Targ, she could forge a fake evidence, and she could support him. Jon is the son of Rhaegar who was the oldest son of Aerys, so in other words Jon is rightful heir and if both Aerys and Rhaegar lived, Jon would become the king after them.

As for the point of Dany's whole story in Meereen and so on, she could say / think that the point was to bring an army for her newly-found nephew and thus secure the future of her house. Jon already had a big reputation in Westeros, he had powerful allies like the remaining Starks, Sweetrobin (via Sansa and Yohn Royce) and Edmure, with Dany he would have Dorne and Yara too. Both Westerosi lords and Targeryen supporters would have someone to cheer for. Jon was born and raised in Westeros and he knows its politics, unlike Dany. As for Cersei, I believe that Jon would arrest her and imprison her or send her away to Essos or something, he himself said that they need mercy.

It all would make an almost perfect sense if Dany wasn't convinced that she was born to rule the 7K.

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Of course she supported Viserys claim.  She had grown up knowing only that her whole life.  But since his death she had believed the claim was hers.  Ever since she walked from the fire with three dragons everything she did was about getting to that throne.  Every slave freed, every atrocity committed...  She believed, as Tyrion pointed out, that SHE was doing what was right.  The destruction of King's Landing.  The people had a choice and that was to love her or to fear her.  When Jon did not love her before the attack on Kings Landing she said "fear it is then" because she did not see love in Westeros around her.  When Jon was coming back to her she was willing to accept love again and MAYBE the breaking of the wheel would have been different.  The other lords, after seeing what happened to Kings Landing, would have bent the knee the same as generations had before to the conquerers.  It seems the most likely hold outs were the North because Sansa was not going to display the sense her ancestors did (no Stark swords in the Iron Throne).  

Would she have ruled with Jon?  Sure she would have.  Pretty easy to share power when you have the dragon (the northern armies would have gone home) should you ever decide you no longer want to share power.  She was in a no-risk scenario welcoming Jon back to rule with her.  

Maybe, if Jon had not killed her, Westeros would be stabilized with the rest of the kingdoms bowing down to her.  Maybe the game would have paused with her at the top of the wheel.  She was more than willing to take allies in the past (Tyrells, Yara, Dorne) as long as they were willing to bend the knee and love her.  Indeed what seemed to push her over the edge was those who would not simply bend the knee (Sansa) and those who suggested there were other options (Viserys).    

Fear or love - you chose fear and fear was highlighted.  But I think love was still an option.  Like any good extortionist you never give up on the "easy" path.  

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16 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Gone was her longing for a family.

Where did they show "longing for family" in the show ever after the death of Khal Drogo? They didn't. This was not part of her character.

16 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Gone was her longing for a home.

Well, they showed us how lonesome she feels when everyone hails Jon and all ignored her. Her longing might have been there, but she just does not fit in. After all, she was born on Dragonstone, but that doesn't make Westeros her home in the emotional sense. She doesn't feel home in Westeros.

16 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Gone was her wish to protect her people and the downtrodden

"Her people" was always a selection and who wouldn't bend the knee was not protected but killed. From S2 onwards. She was brainwashed as a child into believing, Westerosi would wait for her, hail her as queen, be happy about her. Then she arrives in Westeros and realises this is simply not the case. 

Why did she expect something like that? Her father was the Mad King. Why should the people wish for his daugther? For a Targaryen in the first place?

16 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Gone was any form of compromises. 

She never was a woman of compromises. Her advisors talked her out of some drastic measures again and again, but her own nature was "burn and destroy" or crucify, let be killed, feed to dragon, burn by dragon. She always had a violent streak and no tendency to compromise at all. 

16 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Instead she suddenly, out of nowhere, wants to "liberate" (read: conquer) the entire known world

She was always a megalomaniac. Not liberating one slavery city, but then all. Not having one Dothraki tribe but all. Thousands ships. Huge armies. Whole of Westeros.

To threaten "Winterfell to Dorne" fits to her wanting the whole of Westeros, from S2 onwards. You might not have seen it, but it was there. She always wanted all Seven Kingdoms, wanted to keep the Slavery Bay and so on.

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Jon Snow would have been a terrible king. Honestly, I think Danaerys would have made a better ruler than Cersei, Robert or any of their children...and Stanis for that matter. She would be terrifying in the short-term but I could see her legitimately restructuring the flawed system in the long tern. the standards of the throne are pretty low as is. Not the kind of job a stoic, moralistic, slow-thinker like Jon would excel at.

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We seem to ignore the last time Jon was in charge (King of the North) he led his army into a battle that would have destroyed them if not for outside forces and gave up leadership as soon as he was given the chance.

The time before that he was so convinced he was in the right and ignored dissent around him that he ignored generations of traditions of the Night's Watch, in the book plunged the watch into debt with the Iron Bank, gave aid and shelter to Stannis and his men after they saved him from another ill-advised plan in violation of the ideals of the watch to stay out of the affairs of man, and failed so miserably his men mutinied.  

Had he been king he would have lasted a very very short time.  

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