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Daenerys should have supported Jon’s claim

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19 minutes ago, RYShh said:

Well, no matter how honorable he is, even Jon couldn't say to the Northerners that ''I bent the knee because I love her'', so it was a casual speech I guess.

So he lied to them, by sin of omission?

But he can't lie to Cersei?

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41 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

He made it sound like he bent the knee for the North in his speech to the Northerners. So he was still conflicted even then? Jon doesn't know why he does what he does? The writing for Jon is just awful. 

A character who faces no challenges in the south to overcome on his own merits, just gets to fall in love which happens to get him an army to solve his problems. It is very un-Martinesque. 

  

The writing for Jon was purely awful. In the end I couldn't understand why anyone would support him when he made mistake after mistake. It was written to gaslight Dany into madness rather than showcasing any true merit in Jon. 

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3 minutes ago, Alex200 said:

It is more like a lie to himself. 

Yeah, I guess...

It's just a betrayal of the North on some level. 

He as warned not to act like Robb, but he goes and...acts like Robb.

(Never mind the fact that they didnt even write this as a convincing love story)

Even on a familial level, he didnt think that his sister, who was a hostage for years, might not trust a stranger coming in to be her overlord, telling her and the Northerners what to do. 

I still cant decide whether to blame the writing or blame Jon. LOL

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9 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Yeah, I guess...

It's just a betrayal of the North on some level. 

He as warned not to act like Robb, but he goes and...acts like Robb.

 (Never mind the fact that they didnt even write this as a convincing love story)

 Even on a familial level, he didnt think that his sister, who was a hostage for years, might not trust a stranger coming in to be her overlord, telling her and the Northerners what to do. 

I still cant decide whether to blame the writing or blame Jon. LOL

I am okay with him making a mistake like Robb but then at least it should result in consequences that Robb had to face. If the North didn't want Southern rulers anymore.. then Jon bending the knee should have lost him support in the North etc. This is a guy that was murdered by his own men in the past. So this whole "everybody loves Jon" felt unearned. Jon wouldn't be accepted as king of the realm anymore than Dany had been. According to the end, even the north itself wanted independence so much that even a true born Stark male heir on the Iron throne was not enough for them to stay as part of the Kingdom. So why would Jon as half Targ be supported in the north?

There are just so many inconsistencies and plot holes that I can't blame anything other than the writing for all the characters. Its funny because my favourite characters that they tried to put on a pedestal, like Tyrion, I ended up disliking. 

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4 hours ago, Alex200 said:

I am okay with him making a mistake like Robb but then at least it should result in consequences that Robb had to face. If the North didn't want Southern rulers anymore.. then Jon bending the knee should have lost him support in the North etc. This is a guy that was murdered by his own men in the past. So this whole "everybody loves Jon" felt unearned. Jon wouldn't be accepted as king of the realm anymore than Dany had been. According to the end, even the north itself wanted independence so much that even a true born Stark male heir on the Iron throne was not enough for them to stay as part of the Kingdom. So why would Jon as half Targ be supported in the north?

There are just so many inconsistencies and plot holes that I can't blame anything other than the writing for all the characters. Its funny because my favourite characters that they tried to put on a pedestal, like Tyrion, I ended up disliking. 

Being in the NW is the consequence. Plus he had to be the one who killed queen and was kept prisoner for months. And the only reason he wasn’t killed was because Sansa was more successful in rescuing him than Robb was in rescuing her. 

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If Jon is "the rightful heir" then let Jon fight for the Iron Throne, and defeat the White Walkers.

It's a paradox to argue simultaneously that Daenerys is morally obliged to fight the White Walkers and Cersei, but that she has no right to be Queen.  Either proposition can be true.  Both cannot be true simultaneously.  Either, she is Protector of the Realm, or she is not.

As to her wanting to hide Jon's claim, well obviously she doesn't want to get herself killed.  Once Varys knew of the claim, he couldn't wait to kill her.  So would others have plotted in Jon's name.   She was a dead woman walking, once the truth was generally known.

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The fact that some people claim that Daenerys acted on character the previous seasons is wrong. Daenerys was never written on character. She is awfully written in the series in general tbh.

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On 9/29/2019 at 10:58 AM, SeanF said:

It's a paradox to argue simultaneously that Daenerys is morally obliged to fight the White Walkers and Cersei, but that she has no right to be Queen.  Either proposition can be true.  Both cannot be true simultaneously.  Either, she is Protector of the Realm, or she is not.

It's also a paradox that someone declares themselves rightful ruler of an entire continent but doesn't want any of the responsibility. Dany had declared herself rightful monarch of Westeros long before she set foot on the land. And she still declared herself as such when she got there. With that position comes a certain responsibility. You can't pick and chose which part of the position or responsibility you want. Not to mention that if she wants to not rule over a completely frozen zombie land and die, she had to face the threat before it went further south.

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2 hours ago, Mystical said:

It's also a paradox that someone declares themselves rightful ruler of an entire continent but doesn't want any of the responsibility. Dany had declared herself rightful monarch of Westeros long before she set foot on the land. And she still declared herself as such when she got there. With that position comes a certain responsibility. You can't pick and chose which part of the position or responsibility you want. Not to mention that if she wants to not rule over a completely frozen zombie land and die, she had to face the threat before it went further south.

She fulfilled that responsibility.

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Lets be clear, just taking your troops North at the urging of the dude you want to fuck isn't real leadership, people can see through that. She is transparent. Jon worked to win people's loyalty for YEARS...and here Dany just shows up for a day and expects to be rewarded with ultimate fealty? LOL

On top of this, Arya was the one who saved them anyway.

"IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU WANT what happens when they demand you press your claim and take WHAT IS MINE?!?!" - the Gollum of ASOIAF

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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Probably as good a place as any to give my top ten tips for vilifying Daenerys.

1. Always emphasise that her motives are base. This is especially true when she seems to be doing good. She freed the Unsullied because she wanted an army. She freed slaves at Meereen and Yunkai because she wanted them to worship her. She marched North to fight the Dead because she wanted revenge for Viserion or to fuck Jon.

2. Point out that she started her descent into evil when she "allowed" Drogo to kill Viserys. Play down the threats and abuse he gave her. Play up that he fed and educated her.

3. Stress that slavery/slave trading is part of the way of life of Slavers Bay, and she is an imperialist, destroying their culture. Be sure to use terms like white saviour and orientalist, when condemning her. The latter is especially important when debating with those of her fans who are people of colour, if you are white. Remember to preface your apology for slavery with the words "I'm no apologist for slavery."

4. Make sure you say she crucified 163 " innocent people" simply because they were rich. Imply they were in fact, abolitionists.

5. Military ethics. Make sure you hold her opponents to medieval military standards, while holding her to 21st century military standards. If all else fails, invent military standards, such as claiming the use of fire against enemy combatants is a war crime.

6. Sex. It used to be popular to use terms like "whore" or "slut' when describing her, but these terms are crude. The term you want is " hypersexualised". Stress that she raped Irri.

7. Always mention the Tarlys. They were heroes. Ignore the fact that every claimant to the Iron Throne expects defeated lords to swear fealty, or take the Black or die. Ignore the fact that betraying your liege lords, and serving their murderer, is a serious crime under feudal law. Kudos if you can argue that killing the Tarlys was a terrible crime, while Killing Elia and her children was a sad necessity.

8. Emphasise that she committed genocide at Astapor. Stress that she "cheated" the Good Masters.

9. Never say she loved Jon. Always that she was "infatuated".

10. Treat Northern independence as an objective moral good, rather than a political issue which has pros and cons, like Scottish independence, or Brexit. But remember, an independent North is still entitled to full military and economic support from the South.

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3 hours ago, SeanF said:

Probably as good a place as any to give my top ten tips for vilifying Daenerys.

The main issue should be: Why vilify or glorify Daenerys at all? 

The good thing about GoT are complex, realistic, grey-shaded characters, with good and bad, not only black or white. Vilifying or glorifying is against the books and show prerequisite.

Daenerys has a lot of positive features, from the beautiful, charismatic actress, her smart, ambitious way from abused child to queen, her weaving between charismatic young lady and "mad Targaryen" with hunger for power and self-illusion. Daenerys' figure is complex and everyone should appreciate that.

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

Point out that she started her descent into evil

I never viewed her as "descended into evil". She obviously has traits like hunger for power and will to lead as early as season 1. Nobody can deny that. Why not mention it more neutrally? But yes, Daenerys committed actions like feeding life enemies or roasting the slave master. This showed her true nature very early on. 

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

Sex. It used to be popular to use terms like "whore" or "slut' when describing her

Really? Maybe I was absent too long here, but I don't remember that. Daenerys is far away from being a slut. She was in love with Drogo, had an affair with Naharis and fell in love with Jon. Not too many partners... 

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

Treat Northern independence as an objective moral good, rather than a political issue which has pros and cons

Of course, you are right. I don't see how this issue relates to Daenerys' character. She wanted to rule the North, the North wanted to be independent. Both are acceptable aims.

What you did not mention is the decisive issue of her talking for years about birth right and then not accepting Jon's claim.

 

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1 hour ago, Kajjo said:

The main issue should be: Why vilify or glorify Daenerys at all? 

The good thing about GoT are complex, realistic, grey-shaded characters, with good and bad, not only black or white. Vilifying or glorifying is against the books and show prerequisite.

Daenerys has a lot of positive features, from the beautiful, charismatic actress, her smart, ambitious way from abused child to queen, her weaving between charismatic young lady and "mad Targaryen" with hunger for power and self-illusion. Daenerys' figure is complex and everyone should appreciate that.

I never viewed her as "descended into evil". She obviously has traits like hunger for power and will to lead as early as season 1. Nobody can deny that. Why not mention it more neutrally? But yes, Daenerys committed actions like feeding life enemies or roasting the slave master. This showed her true nature very early on. 

Really? Maybe I was absent too long here, but I don't remember that. Daenerys is far away from being a slut. She was in love with Drogo, had an affair with Naharis and fell in love with Jon. Not too many partners... 

Of course, you are right. I don't see how this issue relates to Daenerys' character. She wanted to rule the North, the North wanted to be independent. Both are acceptable aims.

What you did not mention is the decisive issue of her talking for years about birth right and then not accepting Jon's claim.

 

Quote

 

Jon made plain he didn't want it.

But, if he did, it's his fight, not  Daenerys'. Her place would be with her subjects in the East.  She would have no obligation to fight the White Walkers or Cersei, on behalf of Jon and Sansa.

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People can meet all the qualifications for a job and still not be selected because they prefer someone else. Most people also dont jump straight to mass murder afterwards. Daenerys needs to learn how to handle rejection better. The show suggested she became her brother, jealous of Jon's ability to win loyalty. But like, she's had thousands of people declare loyalty to her before, so her complaining about it is eyerolling.

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2 hours ago, SeanF said:

Jon made plain he didn't want it.

I meant her inner feelings about birth right to rule Westeros and be "rightful queen". This was brainwashed into her in childhood and he accepted it wholeheartedly. Then she learns about Jon being a nephew with stronger birthright and that should have turned her inner feelings into turmoil -- but it didn't. She was just relieved Jon didn't want it and turned even more into the powerhungry wannabe-queen. She wanted to rule, to be queen, to rule them all, no matter the birthright, no matter whether they wanted her and so on.

Of course Jon didn't want to be King of Westeros. Yes, he would have had to at least claim the Kingdom, if not fight for it, even figuratively. But nonetheless, Daenerys wanted to be queen, even without birth right.

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

She would have no obligation to fight the White Walkers or Cersei, on behalf of Jon and Sansa

No, you are right. There is no obligation and there was none. She fought because she didn't want die by the common threat.

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7 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

The show suggested she became her brother, jealous of Jon's ability to win loyalty.

I don't know whether this is what the show suggested. They showed us that she was frustrated and disappointed by not winning the admiration and loyalty of the Northerners. She craved for love and acceptance.

 

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3 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

I don't know whether this is what the show suggested. They showed us that she was frustrated and disappointed by not winning the admiration and loyalty of the Northerners. She craved for love and acceptance.

 

Really? I immediately jumped to Viserys in that scene when she was saying people used to look at her like they did at Jon, because Viserys said basically the same thing. Clapton also said she styled her like Viserys specifically.

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11 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

I don't know whether this is what the show suggested. They showed us that she was frustrated and disappointed by not winning the admiration and loyalty of the Northerners. She craved for love and acceptance.

 

The Northerners are just as selfish and  disloyal to the Starks.  It's just in their nature to be arseholes.

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23 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The Northerners are just as selfish and  disloyal to the Starks.  It's just in their nature to be arseholes.

The beauty of any really cleverly crafted narrative is that we can side with the antagonists or the protagonists, depending on our political mindset at the time.

I recently saw Joker (mainly because it is getting a lot of controversy) and I recommend anyone who wants a film worth thinking about also do so. Is it people or society? What is a society without the views of the people that comprise it? What are the limits of an individuals sanity, when society itself feel insane? What responsibility does society have to institutionalize those outside of the norm?

I agree that Dany had some positive traits and the Starks had some very negative ones. But all storys must, in the end, pick their protagonists, right? If they do not - if they just present all humanity as a grey mess of self interest - then they are nihilistic. To provide some hope, you have to pick a side and a belief.

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