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Daenerys should have supported Jon’s claim

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39 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The Northerners are just as selfish and  disloyal to the Starks.  It's just in their nature to be arseholes.

Only in the last...5 years? How did the Starks rule the North for thousands of years if they were all so disloyal?

The current generation of Starks just have to be politically smarter and work harder to win people's loyalty. Because they can't just burn people, without any harm to themselves, and everyone kneels in awe. 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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48 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Only in the last...5 years? How did the Starks rule the North for thousands of years if they were all so disloyal?

The current generation of Starks just have to be politically smarter and work harder to win people's loyalty. Because they can't just burn people, without any harm to themselves, and everyone kneels in awe. 

As Sansa said, they're weather vanes;  she was right to want to confiscate the lands of disloyal houses. If Sansa wants to rule as successfully as Good Queen Bess, she'll use the same methods as Good Queen Bess;. the axe, the gibbet, the torture chamber, and an extensive secret police force.

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25 minutes ago, SeanF said:

As Sansa said, they're weather vanes;  she was right to want to confiscate the lands of disloyal houses. If Sansa wants to rule as successfully as Good Queen Bess, she'll use the same methods as Good Queen Bess;. the axe, the gibbet, the torture chamber, and an extensive secret police force.

"In effort to show how strong he was and how you defied him at your peril, Joffrey executes Eddard Stark...and this is a colossal mistake. Sometimes the harshest decision is not always the wisest." - GRRM

 

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3 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Really? I immediately jumped to Viserys in that scene when she was saying people used to look at her like they did at Jon, because Viserys said basically the same thing. Clapton also said she styled her like Viserys specifically.

Well, there are parallels of course to Viserys -- and to other former Targaryens as well. The lack of admiration and the craving for acceptance probably lies in the family heritage. 

For me, her reaction of frustration and loneliness in the after-war celebration scene forestalled her development towards "so it is fear (if love does not work)". 

My point here is: We never saw Viserys being depressed, sad, frustrated, lonely, but for full of bitterness, rage, egoism. This is different from Daenerys in the after-war celebration scene, when Jon is glorified. I believe, we are told to see her lonely and frustrated at that point.

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3 hours ago, SeanF said:

The Northerners are just as selfish and  disloyal to the Starks.  It's just in their nature to be arseholes.

Wow, you argue against vilifying Daenerys but have such a prejudiced and over-generalized view of Northerners? What have they done to you to deserve that?

The Northerners are depicted to be very loyal to the North. And as such to the Starks in general. Not blindly, but they are. But Northerners value independence, even on a more individual basis. But little Mormont and many other scenes taught us that the North is loyal.

Which scene do you have in mind that drive you to your conclusion of "illoyal bunch"?

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2 hours ago, ummester said:

I agree that Dany had some positive traits and the Starks had some very negative ones. But all storys must, in the end, pick their protagonists, right? If they do not - if they just present all humanity as a grey mess of self interest - then they are nihilistic. To provide some hope, you have to pick a side and a belief.

Well said.

The complex and grey-shaded characters and side in GoT are well done and simply made the great show. I cannot listen to all this constant moaning. My goodness, enjoy the show.

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5 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Wow, you argue against vilifying Daenerys but have such a prejudiced and over-generalized view of Northerners? What have they done to you to deserve that?

The Northerners are depicted to be very loyal to the North. And as such to the Starks in general. Not blindly, but they are. But Northerners value independence, even on a more individual basis. But little Mormont and many other scenes taught us that the North is loyal.

Which scene do you have in mind that drive you to your conclusion of "illoyal bunch"?

In the show, the Umbers and Karstarks supported Ramsay Bolton.  Glover ran away from the fight against the Dead.

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6 minutes ago, SeanF said:

In the show, the Umbers and Karstarks supported Ramsay Bolton.  Glover ran away from the fight against the Dead.

Yes, so what?

Two arsehole make the whole North? It is REALISTIC that even a "loyal North" has some illoyal members. 

A whole people is not homogeneous. Do you really expect ALL members of a people to be either loyal or illoyal? Come on, get down to earth. 

A loyal people has a higher percentage of loyal members. That's all. 

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10 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Yes, so what?

Two arsehole make the whole North? It is REALISTIC that even a "loyal North" has some illoyal members. 

A whole people is not homogeneous. Do you really expect ALL members of a people to be either loyal or illoyal? Come on, get down to earth. 

A loyal people has a higher percentage of loyal members. That's all. 

More Northerners fought for Ramsay than for Jon and Sansa

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2 hours ago, SeanF said:

In the show, the Umbers and Karstarks supported Ramsay Bolton.  Glover ran away from the fight against the Dead.

 

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

More Northerners fought for Ramsay than for Jon and Sansa

Funny thing about the show, the Boltons were actually great liege lords. Yes Ramsey flayed a Cerwyn for not paying taxes but in the end...you are supposed to pay taxes. If you don't, punishment follows. And all the Northerners lost people in the Red Wedding which was Robb Stark's fault.

I actually agreed with Glover's POV in S6. The Boltons were the ones cleaning house in the North, driving the Ironborn away and getting Glover his castle and land back. Sure the Boltons were also responsible for the Red Wedding but after Robb's mistakes and the fact that Glover would have nothing (his home, people, army) without the Boltons...his attitude is understandable. And sure while one could argue that he was a shit in S8, lets not forget why...Jon gave away the North to a foreign woman. Can you say massive flashback to Robb Stark? And Sansa was right, Glover swore fealty to the King in the North, not some foreign woman. And the King he swore fealty to knelt away their freedom and independence first chance he got.

Nevermind the fact that most of the Northern houses weren't even involved originally in the Battle of the Bastards. Sansa had named several Houses they hadn't even talked to (including the Cerwyns who were right next door to WF) or whom they hadn't gotten a reply from (like the Manderlys) and that Jon refused to contact because he was in a hurry. In S7 there wasn't much to see of the Northern houses and the only ones making a fuss were Glover and Royce, the latter whom isn't even a Northerner. But can you really blame any of them? Their newly voted King ditches them all to meet a foreign conqueror that none of them really know in the hopes he doesn't get killed upon arrival at Dragonstone. While the North was still suffering the aftermath of years of turmoil and most of them not really believing the threat beyond the wall. They elected a King to bring some stability to the North and said King ditches the Kingdom first chance he gets.

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19 hours ago, SeanF said:

More Northerners fought for Ramsay than for Jon and Sansa

Not really. The majority of Northern houses sat out the fight. Bolton only had Umber and Karstark.

16 hours ago, Mystical said:

They elected a King to bring some stability to the North and said King ditches the Kingdom first chance he gets.

It was really stupid. Jon and Dany make everything about the story ten times more cringeworthy. 

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Since the show already talked about annulment rather than either a 2nd marriage or lawfully putting a wife aside without removing the children from succession I didn’t expect Dany to back Jon. I just expected her to question his legitimacy, then offer it once she’s queen. His children would be heir to their house since she’s convinced she can’t have children anyway, and once Sansa or other pushed for him to be king or at the very least pushed for a marriage knowing their relationship (fine for a Targaryen but in the show it’s outright said “is it normal for the north to marry an aunt”) I expected it to go badly. It still could have had Dany saying she was Queen. burning Kind's landing, and Jon being pulled between two names.

I even expected some kind of mad plan about how she would “break the wheel” that would have hurt Jon’s siblings. What we got though was her being unwilling to even talk about it, burning down King’s landing, and then she offers to build a new world with him.

I’m not even sure what they were going for, and everyone who thinks they did seems to have a different view on it.

On who is the better leader... Jon he didn’t really lead. He got stabbed in the night’s watch but the main plot was left out from the book so it seems like that was far more random. Just for letting the wildling past? I feel like they should have killed him before he went to get them. He failed to get the north on side against Ramsay Bolton, and then left quickly returning having given up his crown. Sansa didn’t either though. She basically let Jon go to battle with an army way too small knowing the Vale was a call away. We see some “leading” from her later as she lets the lord’s vent their frustration at Jon but that was just for the silly plot where her an Arya are set against each other. Bran bails them out of that apparently but it’s a deleted scene.

Dany does terrible ruling meereen, Tyrion somewhat fixes it and she turns up and kills things with dragons at the end. I guess she has less failures but no successes at all. The cities other than meereen are retaken before this so I assume she said "do as I say I have dragons" and then left.

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On 5/22/2019 at 3:10 PM, Lord Varys said:

The idea that 'the claim' of some obscure hidden prince should affect anything was always silly. As was the entire internal Targaryen conflict of her vs. him - if they love each other, they can marry. Case closed. The Conqueror and his sister-wives also ruled jointly together.

She is the only monarch in that series that actually has a proper string of titles. She and Lord Manderly. The rest a naked and impoverished beggars... ;-).

It's actually kinda silly that Varys in the show said that the Starks don't do incest. Except... that they do; at least two of Cregan Stark's sons married the daughters of their brother Rickon. Ned Stark's own parents are cousins.

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On 10/5/2019 at 12:31 PM, SeanF said:

As Sansa said, they're weather vanes;  she was right to want to confiscate the lands of disloyal houses. If Sansa wants to rule as successfully as Good Queen Bess, she'll use the same methods as Good Queen Bess;. the axe, the gibbet, the torture chamber, and an extensive secret police force.

+1

Why is it bad when Daenerys does it? Because she has power?

On 10/6/2019 at 9:44 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

It was really stupid. Jon and Dany make everything about the story ten times more cringeworthy. 

To be honest, the simplest, easiest and wisest solution would have been for Jon and Dany to marry. That way, Jon is not giving up his kingdom and sovereignty but joining it with Dany's sovereignty and kingdom. Like, it is just so simple and logical an nine-year-old would've came to that conclusion naturally. And it's happened so many different times in real life history and in the universe of GoT and ASOIAF yet.....I don't know.

It's a maddening display of poor writing and terrible vision.

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24 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

+1

Why is it bad when Daenerys does it? Because she has power?

To be honest, the simplest, easiest and wisest solution would have been for Jon and Dany to marry. That way, Jon is not giving up his kingdom and sovereignty but joining it with Dany's sovereignty and kingdom. Like, it is just so simple and logical an nine-year-old would've came to that conclusion naturally. And it's happened so many different times in real life history and in the universe of GoT and ASOIAF yet.....I don't know.

It's a maddening display of poor writing and terrible vision.

Well, of course that's what the pair of them would have done in a real life situation.  But, everyone had a lobotomy in Seasons 7 and 8.

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7 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

To be honest, the simplest, easiest and wisest solution would have been for Jon and Dany to marry. That way, Jon is not giving up his kingdom and sovereignty but joining it with Dany's sovereignty and kingdom. Like, it is just so simple and logical an nine-year-old would've came to that conclusion naturally. And it's happened so many different times in real life history and in the universe of GoT and ASOIAF yet.....I don't know.

Interestingly, Daenerys didnt want Jon to be a Targaryen, and finally when she came around to the idea, he stabbed her. Glad to see them not be endgame. Everything about them on screen together was horrid.

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8 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Interestingly, Daenerys didnt want Jon to be a Targaryen, and finally when she came around to the idea, he stabbed her. Glad to see them not be endgame. Everything about them on screen together was horrid.

They are endgame. And that was endgame. It all happened in the very last "episode." And I use the term "episode" very loosely seeing as it was a in-cohesive, blundering mess. Who treats their series finale (much less the series finale of what could've been the best TV show ever created) like a storyboard...or worse a clipshow.

The TV show had a terrible endgame but it was an endgame. Just because a relationship ends tragically doesn't mean it wasn't 

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2 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

They are endgame. And that was endgame. It all happened in the very last "episode." And I use the term "episode" very loosely seeing as it was a in-cohesive, blundering mess. Who treats their series finale (much less the series finale of what could've been the best TV show ever created) like a storyboard...or worse a clipshow.

The TV show had a terrible endgame but it was an endgame. Just because a relationship ends tragically doesn't mean it wasn't 

I think we’re using that term differently. Endgame to me is ruling together on the Iron Throne, and in shipping terms it’s a relationship staying together. 

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Just now, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think we’re using that term differently. Endgame to me is ruling together on the Iron Throne, and in shipping terms it’s a relationship staying together. 

Ohhhhhhhh

Okay. Got it....

Yeah, Jon and Dany would never work (not even in the books) and I have only ever see it working long-term once back in season 6. 

Jon is rather conservative whereas Dany is the ultimate progressive liberal...to her detriment. That's always been her problem: she moves too fast for most people.

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