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Daenerys should have supported Jon’s claim

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18 minutes ago, Nerevanin said:

If Dany genuinly cared for the Targaeryen dynasty and not just for herself, she should have stepped aside. If she wasn't so selfish and with this "I'm the savior, bow down" complex. She knew (or thought - in the show there was nothing to suggest otherwise, unlike in the books) that she can't have children. Her kingdom would rise and fall with her. Jon, on the other hand, probably can father children. He is the future of house Targaeryen. To support his claim is what she would do if she wanted house Targaeryen to continue. If she wanted house Targaeryen to continue, Jon is a blessing for her.

It wouldn't be even that hard. She could publicly say that Jon is a Targ, she could forge a fake evidence, and she could support him. Jon is the son of Rhaegar who was the oldest son of Aerys, so in other words Jon is rightful heir and if both Aerys and Rhaegar lived, Jon would become the king after them.

As for the point of Dany's whole story in Meereen and so on, she could say / think that the point was to bring an army for her newly-found nephew and thus secure the future of her house. Jon already had a big reputation in Westeros, he had powerful allies like the remaining Starks, Sweetrobin (via Sansa and Yohn Royce) and Edmure, with Dany he would have Dorne and Yara too. Both Westerosi lords and Targeryen supporters would have someone to cheer for. Jon was born and raised in Westeros and he knows its politics, unlike Dany. As for Cersei, I believe that Jon would arrest her and imprison her or send her away to Essos or something, he himself said that they need mercy.

It all would make an almost perfect sense if Dany wasn't convinced that she was born to rule the 7K.

So you actually want Dany to use her armies and Dragons to support another’s person claim to the throne? Not because jon really wants it or has earned it, but because he has a better title? 

And she is the selfish one here? Why? Because she doesn’t care for Jon’s title as much as she cares for all these years of effort she personally made to come into fruition? How long does she know Jon? Her whole life? No, he tells her just before attacking Kings Landing and he doesn’t want the throne. 

You seem to be blaming Dany for Jon’s lack of ambition to fight Cersei and claim the throne for himself. You can’t fight other people’s war if they don’t want to fight them. The best she could do was to withdraw, if he wanted it. Certainly not put her armies and dragons behind Jon. He didn’t earn that. 

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1 hour ago, Nightwish said:

So you actually want Dany to use her armies and Dragons to support another’s person claim to the throne? Not because jon really wants it or has earned it, but because he has a better title? 

And she is the selfish one here? Why? Because she doesn’t care for Jon’s title as much as she cares for all these years of effort she personally made to come into fruition? How long does she know Jon? Her whole life? No, he tells her just before attacking Kings Landing and he doesn’t want the throne. 

You seem to be blaming Dany for Jon’s lack of ambition to fight Cersei and claim the throne for himself. You can’t fight other people’s war if they don’t want to fight them. The best she could do was to withdraw, if he wanted it. Certainly not put her armies and dragons behind Jon. He didn’t earn that. 

It does not matter what I want or don't want. It's just the way it is. Dany finds out she has a relative who has a better claim than she does => she urges him not to tell anyone => she wants the throne for herself. She was saying for seasons how Robert Baratheon and later Cersei stole her throne. Cool but that's basically what she did to Jon. She was saying for seasons how she is the rightful ruler of Westeros because of her birthright. Cool but there is someone who is "rightfuler" ruler than her. And suddenly all the stuff she's been saying for years stops being valid. She suddenly doesn't care about birthrights, bloodlines and rightful heirs. She just wants the throne for herself.

Jon hasn't earned the throne? Really? He was fighting against the dead in face to face combats before Dany even arrived in Westeros.

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1 hour ago, Nightwish said:

So you actually want Dany to use her armies and Dragons to support another’s person claim to the throne? Not because jon really wants it or has earned it, but because he has a better title? 

And she is the selfish one here? Why? Because she doesn’t care for Jon’s title as much as she cares for all these years of effort she personally made to come into fruition? How long does she know Jon? Her whole life? No, he tells her just before attacking Kings Landing and he doesn’t want the throne. 

You seem to be blaming Dany for Jon’s lack of ambition to fight Cersei and claim the throne for himself. You can’t fight other people’s war if they don’t want to fight them. The best she could do was to withdraw, if he wanted it. Certainly not put her armies and dragons behind Jon. He didn’t earn that. 

Birthright and earned don't go well together. They are the opposite really. She goes on throughout the show, how the Iron Throne is her birthright, and when that birthright goes through the window, because there is someone with a better claim, then it's about earned suddenly? Also how did she earn the right to be queen of Westeros more then Jon or Arya who had a vital part both in defeating the Army of the dead? If that is what we are talking about here, because there is not one single thing aside from her helping in the great war that would make her claim to the throne of Westeros earned. Events in Essos have nothing to do with Westeros.

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2 minutes ago, Nerevanin said:

It does not matter what I want or don't want. It's just the way it is. Dany finds out she has a relative who has a better claim than she does => she urges him not to tell anyone => she wants the throne for herself. She was saying for seasons how Robert Baratheon and later Cersei stole her throne. Cool but that's basically what she did to Jon. She was saying for seasons how she is the rightful ruler of Westeros because of her birthright. Cool but there is someone who is "rightfuler" ruler than her. And suddenly all the stuff she's been saying for years stops being valid. She suddenly doesn't care about birthrights, bloodlines and rightful heirs. She just wants the throne for herself.

Jon hasn't earned the throne? Really? He was fighting against the dead in face to face combats before Dany even arrived in Westeros.

I said: 

Quote

Certainly not put her armies and dragons behind Jon. He didn’t earn that. 

So he can put the Night Swatch, the Widlings, the North, who ever he protected behind him to claim his birthright as you say from Cersei. But not Dany's army. He didn't earned her armies. She did. 

Quote

Cool but there is someone who is "rightfuler" ruler than her.

And so? Does he want to claim the throne? Does he want to gather army and march against Cersei? He doesn't even want his right. 

Quote

And suddenly all the stuff she's been saying for years stops being valid. She suddenly doesn't care about birthrights, bloodlines and rightful heirs. She just wants the throne for herself.

Her birthright didn't made her armies and dragons. Didn't open her the doors, didn't earn her supporters. It was her journey that did it. So of course she is not going to step aside and give to Jon all she accomplished. 

 Jon can have the birthright as you say but he needs the ambition and the power. And he doesn't want to use none of it.  

 

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5 minutes ago, Sheiraseastar23 said:

Birthright and earned don't go well together. They are the opposite really. She goes on throughout the show, how the Iron Throne is her birthright, and when that birthright goes through the window, because there is someone with a better claim, then it's about earned suddenly? Also how did she earn the right to be queen of Westeros more then Jon or Arya who had a vital part both in defeating the Army of the dead? If that is what we are talking about here, because there is not one single thing aside from her helping in the great war that would make her claim to the throne of Westeros earned. Events in Essos have nothing to do with Westeros.

No they are not. People need a reason to support someone; birthright.

But as I said this really doesn't do the job. Dany had the birthright but as long as she had no armies and power no one gave her anything. So these two need to be combined. 

She earns the throne by defeating Cersei. That's all to it. Using her own armies and dragons and the support she earned all the way. This is not theory but totally practical. Anyone can claim the throne. But I don't see anyone else of the characters wanting to do it. 

Edited by Nightwish

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Did Baratheon have some birth-right to the throne I am unfamiliar with?  He took it by force with the backing of a majority of the major houses.  For all intents they DID "elect" him as surely as that council elected Brann.   They elected him through politics and then by the use of force.  We are reminded that when Ned and Robert came into the great keep Jaime had been sitting on the throne and I always felt like there had been some tension and compromise there (marrying Cersei) to prevent the forces that had ousted the Targareyns from falling on each other.  

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2 hours ago, RFL said:

Did Baratheon have some birth-right to the throne I am unfamiliar with?  He took it by force with the backing of a majority of the major houses.  For all intents they DID "elect" him as surely as that council elected Brann.   They elected him through politics and then by the use of force.  We are reminded that when Ned and Robert came into the great keep Jaime had been sitting on the throne and I always felt like there had been some tension and compromise there (marrying Cersei) to prevent the forces that had ousted the Targareyns from falling on each other.  

If I'm not mistaken Robert Baratheon was grandson or grand-grandson of a Targaeryen lady, so he had a kind of birthright but he definitely wasn't in the main Targaeryen dynasty and he surely didn't see himself as a Targaeryen and people surely didn't follow him because he was 1/8 Targaeryen or something liek that.

And yeah, Robert marrying Cersei was definitely a kind of peace pact or a political alliance. Tywin used to be Aerys' Hand and although there were some conflicts between them towards the end of Aerys' life and iirc Tywin didn't participate in Robert's Rebellion on any side until the very end when everything was already decided, I think a lot of people still saw the Lannisters as Targaeryen supporters, so Robert+Cersei sealed the peace in the land.

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19 minutes ago, Nerevanin said:

If I'm not mistaken Robert Baratheon was grandson or grand-grandson of a Targaeryen lady, so he had a kind of birthright but he definitely wasn't in the main Targaeryen dynasty and he surely didn't see himself as a Targaeryen and people surely didn't follow him because he was 1/8 Targaeryen or something liek that.

No, but he took the throne instead Ned because of it. If Aerys, Rhaegar and Viserys had been killed in a plane crash, Robert was next in line. 

With Aerys and Rhaegar dead and Viserys fled to Dragonstone and then across the Narrow Sea, Robert was next. They call it Robert's Rebellion...but it was Jon Arryn who started it when he refused to hand over Robert and Ned to Aerys. 

Edited by Ice Queen

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I always had the impression Ned wanted nothing to do with the throne and was more than willing to step back and let Robert have it.  He only came south again when he was bound by duty to his king to do so.  

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3 hours ago, Nightwish said:
Quote

Cool but there is someone who is "rightfuler" ruler than her.

And so? Does he want to claim the throne? Does he want to gather army and march against Cersei? He doesn't even want his right. 

And so??? The rest of the argument is in the sentence before the one you quoted:

3 hours ago, Nightwish said:

She was saying for seasons how she is the rightful ruler of Westeros because of her birthright. Cool but there is someone who is "rightfuler" ruler than her.

Dany has been styling herself as "the rightful ruler of the 7 kingdoms" for a long time. Learning that Jon is a "rightfuler" ruler actually takes away the "right" to this title from her. She's of course not obliged to help Jon in a reconquest of the throne, but in her logic, the title "rightful ruler of the 7 kingdoms" should pass to Jon. If he doesn't want to try to use it, she is only another conqueror.

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1 hour ago, Martyn Bull said:

And so??? The rest of the argument is in the sentence before the one you quoted:

Dany has been styling herself as "the rightful ruler of the 7 kingdoms" for a long time. Learning that Jon is a "rightfuler" ruler actually takes away the "right" to this title from her. She's of course not obliged to help Jon in a reconquest of the throne, but in her logic, the title "rightful ruler of the 7 kingdoms" should pass to Jon. If he doesn't want to try to use it, she is only another conqueror.

Once Robert was on the throne, she had no claim at all--her line had been deposed and that's it. The line of succession would be Robert, Joffrey and his heirs, Tommen and his heirs, Stannis and his heirs, Renly and his heirs. So she's going around making a claim to the throne she doesn't have. Targaryen women cannot inherit the throne unless all other male claimants are dead. 

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3 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

Once Robert was on the throne, she had no claim at all--her line had been deposed and that's it. The line of succession would be Robert, Joffrey and his heirs, Tommen and his heirs, Stannis and his heirs, Renly and his heirs. So she's going around making a claim to the throne she doesn't have. Targaryen women cannot inherit the throne unless all other male claimants are dead. 

She always had a claim to the throne as does anyone descended from King Aerys.  You don't lose your claim. You just have to fight to get your throne back.

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1 minute ago, El Guapo said:

She always had a claim to the throne as does anyone descended from King Aerys.  You don't lose your claim. You just have to fight to get your throne back.

Again, as long as there were males left, she was no one and has no valid claim. That includes the Baratheons. Viserys told her a bunch of malarkey that the Westerosi would welcome them back with open arms. Um, no. They put Robert on the throne to end Aerys' atrocities. Jorah tried to warn her, but she didn't listen. 

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1 minute ago, Ice Queen said:

Again, as long as there were males left, she was no one and has no valid claim. That includes the Baratheons. Viserys told her a bunch of malarkey that the Westerosi would welcome them back with open arms. Um, no. They put Robert on the throne to end Aerys' atrocities. Jorah tried to warn her, but she didn't listen. 

That is not true at all. Read the books. Barristan certainly didn't think this. Nor did Tyrion. Or Jorah, or Kevin Lannister. Or Doran Martell for that matter.  Males only have a better claim that is it. 

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2 hours ago, Martyn Bull said:

And so??? The rest of the argument is in the sentence before the one you quoted:

Dany has been styling herself as "the rightful ruler of the 7 kingdoms" for a long time. Learning that Jon is a "rightfuler" ruler actually takes away the "right" to this title from her. She's of course not obliged to help Jon in a reconquest of the throne, but in her logic, the title "rightful ruler of the 7 kingdoms" should pass to Jon. If he doesn't want to try to use it, she is only another conqueror.

No, she is not, they are related. She is the next in line. 

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3 hours ago, Nightwish said:

No, she is not, they are related. She is the next in line. 

Yes, but then she would have to get rid of Jon first. As long as he exists she is NOT the "rightful heir to the 7 kingdoms" according to her own logic. She can of course conquer the throne, but that isn't pressing any claim that actually makes sense - it's only conquering.

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8 minutes ago, Martyn Bull said:

Yes, but then she would have to get rid of Jon first. As long as he exists she is NOT the "rightful heir to the 7 kingdoms" according to her own logic. She can of course conquer the throne, but that isn't pressing any claim that actually makes sense - it's only conquering.

No, because he said to her that he doesn't want the throne and even if people support him, he will refuse. So since he passed to her this right, if we believe they have a claim, she is the rightfull heir since he doesn't want it and has declared it to her. 

The throne has to be conquered because of Cersei. So in reality it is by conquest and belongs to the one who will claim it by force in this case.

 

 

Edited by Nightwish

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Her ancestors came and forged the kingdoms with fire. Ultimately her conquering them again would have hardly been inconsistent with her ancestors, she was a much truer successor than Jon(who totally failed his own bloodline). In essence she was the correct heir in spirit if not in established inheritance law.

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4 hours ago, Ice Queen said:

Once Robert was on the throne, she had no claim at all--her line had been deposed and that's it. The line of succession would be Robert, Joffrey and his heirs, Tommen and his heirs, Stannis and his heirs, Renly and his heirs. So she's going around making a claim to the throne she doesn't have. Targaryen women cannot inherit the throne unless all other male claimants are dead. 

Yes, I agree. What I tried to explain was that Jon actually has the strongest claim between him and Dany. That Dany's claim to be the "righteous queen of the 7 kingdoms" falls completely apart when it is known that Jon actually is the "truest" heir. In my opinion, the "realest" heir to the throne is always the heir to the one sitting on the throne. Cersei didn't mind getting an heir, so i guess it's kind of open after her demise :-)

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3 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

No, because he said to her that he doesn't want the throne and even if people support him, he will refuse. So since he passed to her this right, if we believe they have a claim, she is the rightfull heir since he doesn't want it and has declared it to her. 

I think Jon Snow has a record of ending up in positions of power he doesn't necessarily WANTS. He didn't refuse then. 

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