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the red god

So once again...the writers forgot about Gendry

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1 hour ago, RSasoiaf said:

This is not how it works :)

Jon bent the knee but he still rules the North. 

The position of King in The North does not vanish. You also did not see Jon abdicate that position. 

And above all, I will repeat, Jon still rules the North, not Sansa!!!!!

Jon's position of King of the North vanished the moment he bent the knee to Dany. Jon became Warden of North after that, which is a military title. Regardless if Jon did still rule the North, he wasn't getting a vote on who should King or Queen at that meeting. Sansa getting a vote does make sense, compared to say Ayra or the nameless Lords there. 

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9 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

Jon's position of King of the North vanished the moment he bent the knee to Dany. Jon became Warden of North after that, which is a military title. Regardless if Jon did still rule the North, he wasn't getting a vote on who should King or Queen at that meeting. Sansa getting a vote does make sense, compared to say Ayra or the nameless Lords there. 

I tell you all to go look into episode 2 when Sansa and Dany are talking!!!!!!

SANSA IS NOT TALKING LIKE SHE IS DANY´s VASSAL 

Are we clear about that???? Or do you need to go and watch again???? 

JON IS STILL INDEPENDENT!!!! Jon did not abdicate to Sansa at any point in time. This is also why Sansa is concerned about what Jon does. If Sansa was the leader of the North, she could care less about who Jon wanted to have sex with :)

Its pretty damn obvious on Sansa´s words. She is saying she is ok with Dany being in the Iron Throne. She can support that. But please recognize the North as a kingdom, which they already claim to be.

Yes, its also obvious Dany will not recognize them and there will be war between them. Unless Jon can figure out some way to get everyone happy. 

But Dany does not talk to Sansa like a ruler at that time. And Dany also does not have any way to enforce her will. Which is made obvious with the whole Jaime Lannister thing. If it was not yet obvious.

The North is independent and can have its own choices. 

Dany is begging them to recognize her as Queen. She is not threatening to barbecue them…..yet. 

Ohhh, and Dany already recognized Yara as Queen so Dany should be pretty fine with status changes. Even more so if Jon would have been at her side. Would really have been no issue to get the North Kingdom status and have Sansa or Bran be happy there. 

Which….brings us back to the Gendry thing :)

Ahhhh the same Dany who was so paranoid with Jon being known as a Targ…...is also the same Dany who goes like: Everyone, here is Robert Baratheon son!!!! 

I will grant that does look like someone completely crazy :)

It does not mater if Gendry would be a blacksmith or a beggar. The moment he was recognized as Robert´s son he would be a potential figurehead. Everyone who could play against Dany using Jon, could also use Gendry. And I honestly do not want to figure out which one of them would have been easier to manipulate. I still think Gendry would have jumped against Dany faster then Jon :)

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22 minutes ago, RSasoiaf said:

The last quote is a very simple quote. 

It goes over the fact that no one started calling themselves King. Neither Robb or Jon did that. 

They were called that by their people. Which gets things much more complicated. It means there is a real independence movement behind them. It means that even if they are killed, someone else may take that idea forward. Because the idea is there. 

Now, granted, they need to be recognized. This much is true. And its also true the Iron Throne never did that. But the North did manage to overthrow the Iron Throne when they kicked the Boltons out. The Boltons were in fact the Iron Throne recognized wardens of the North. So when the North did that, and with active support from the Vale, the North became indeed independent. There was no way the Iron Throne had any power anymore over the North. Neither did Dany, whatever she was at the time. 

So, when Jon meets Dany the North is in fact independent. 

You are independent the day that none can force you do anything. And Jon was not forced into anything. Which is much different from is ancestor who was in a position of bend the knee or get barbecued. 

Simple, yet true.

Since when to "the people" get a say in who is king and who isn't? All the rebels of the War of the Five Kings had enough people calling them king. It all counts for nothing until the person you are rebelling against gives in, and Cersei never did give in.
And so they did defeat the Boltons, doesn't make them an independent nation as long as the Seven Kingdoms don't recognize them, just as little as Robb's possession of the North and the Trident did.

I would not call the North being independent a "fact", there was still an ongoing war across the whole continent with entire regions changing hands and allegiance. I wouldn't have commissioned a cartographer drawing up an independent Kingdom of the North in a situation like that.
Until Cersei would have given in, Jon was still a rebel, no matter if Cersei chose to deal with him right away or later. 
They were only independent from the Northern perspective, I don't think anybody else in the world agreed, and if they hadn't ended up on the winning side and Sansa hadn't asked for, and being granted, independence, they would have just been returned to the fold.

Or was Frederick of Bohemia independent because he managed to hold on for a bit of land for a while? The "Winter King" was just a mocking title in his case.

 

Sansa, of course, can choose to officially include Robb and Jon in the line of Kings in the North, if she wishes to do so, but that's just how Medieval history tended to work.

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13 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

Sansa, of course, can choose to officially include Robb and Jon in the line of Kings in the North, if she wishes to do so, but that's just how Medieval history tended to work.

Making Jon an exiled king beyond the walls... :D

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What Sansa did to Edmure was unrespectful. There was no reason at all why Edmure should listen to Sansa, she does not have power over him.

Furthermore, the fact that Sansa was meddling in who would be king, knowing that she wanted to claim independence, is just absurd. 

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5 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

With all those titles it's also important to remember that for the whole series people gave themselves all sorts of titles (King of Westeros, King in the North etc.)....without ever having the chance to consolidate their titles. Renly, Stannis, Robb, Balon, Jon...they were all just rebels from the perspective of the Iron Throne and never were able to force the Seven Kingdoms to accept and acknowledge their sovereignty.

There wasn't an officially recognized King in the North in the entire show, just claimants to the title, until Sansa managed to have the "Six" Kingdoms recognize her succession. She's the first internationally recognized Monarch in the North since Torrhen Stark.

"Calling yourself king doesn't make you one..."

The North recognised Robb. Sansa recognised Robb. When you secede you cease to give a shit about what other people say. I'd argue Sansa consolidated what Robb started.

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