A season of Jons betrayal

[Charles Stuart]

9 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

If you fight for someone and kill for them you better be prepared to die, regardless of if you "surrender". That's the reality of it.

What is the result of not burning it? A widespread insurgency and a continued base of power for the Lannisters. A show of mercy facilitating further challenge to Danys rule.

Morality always needs to be judged relative to others at the same time.

Robert didn't massacre king's landing. I didn't see much of an insurgency against him outside of a few nobles and Dorne who were rightfully angered but more so due to Lannister actions.

Jon from the show forgave the northern nobles who didn't fight for him or Sansa against the Boltons. He even informed them there was nothing to forgive. No insurgency there either.

The point is, if Daeny wanted to be viewed as a liberator, then she had to act like it. Torching a whole city after the city's surrender  is not how you do that. That is achieved through the showing of mercy which is something Daeny showed rarely in 8 seasons. 

If anything , by torching King's landing, Daeny made an insurgency against her rule inevitable. That act would never have been forgotten and if Jon hadn't stabbed her then someone else likely would have.

It would have been Mereen all over again and that reinforces the notion that Daeny's personality had been this way all along. People just refused to see it because she was torching "bad people".

She was a poor conqueror and she would have made an even poorer queen because she simply didn't understand the requirements of being queen as opposed to some military style dictator of the east.

[RFL]

We are defending Dany’s actions by citing Cersei.  Does that mean we hold up Cersei as good?   

[Nightwish]

1 minute ago, Charles Stuart said:

The point is, if Daeny wanted to be viewed as a liberator, then she had to act like it. Torching a whole city after the city's surrender  is not how you do that. That is achieved through the showing of mercy which is something Daeny showed rarely in 8 seasons.

I don't think that she cares for this anymore at this point (after the Bells). She views herself as such but she has lost any threshold, so actually and deep down she doesn't. 

But unrelated to her choice, Jon shouldn't have killed her in such a way for the message it conveys:

https://www.fatherly.com/play/game-of-thrones-finale-daenerys-partner-violence/ 

It's really a bad taste to kill a young woman pretending to love her and while holding her to your arms. 

Not to mention that Drogon is upset:

https://toofab.com/2019/05/22/jason-momoa-wanted-bar-fight-jon-snow-kill-game-of-thrones-wife-daenerys/

LOL 

[Techmaester]

47 minutes ago, Charles Stuart said:

Robert didn't massacre king's landing. I didn't see much of an insurgency against him outside of a few nobles and Dorne who were rightfully angered but more so due to Lannister actions.

Jon from the show forgave the northern nobles who didn't fight for him or Sansa against the Boltons. He even informed them there was nothing to forgive. No insurgency there either.

The point is, if Daeny wanted to be viewed as a liberator, then she had to act like it. Torching a whole city after the city's surrender  is not how you do that. That is achieved through the showing of mercy which is something Daeny showed rarely in 8 seasons. 

If anything , by torching King's landing, Daeny made an insurgency against her rule inevitable. That act would never have been forgotten and if Jon hadn't stabbed her then someone else likely would have.

It would have been Mereen all over again and that reinforces the notion that Daeny's personality had been this way all along. People just refused to see it because she was torching "bad people".

She was a poor conqueror and she would have made an even poorer queen because she simply didn't understand the requirements of being queen as opposed to some military style dictator of the east.

 

I don't think her actions in Mereen were ever wrong(her only real wrong was re-opening the fighting pits at the pressure of others to create "peace"). She was good and she did bad things when needed to maintain a better world overall. You could argue about being viewed as a liberator but I don't think she would ever have been viewed that way in Kings Landing. It was fundamentally corrupt and infected with Cersei. 

Her destruction of it would have been cheered on by the North and everyone else who dealt with Lannister treachery, why people automatically jump to the conclusion that because Dany made a grey decision in destroying a city that everyone immediately stops and forgets about the years of war caused by the same city and will want to kill her. 

She was a good conqueror but too eager to act as a hero(fight the NK), apparently a poor judge of character and clearly too trusting leading to her death. If she had executed her plans with Cerseis level of ruthless precision she wouldn't have died.  

Anyway we have completely deviated off topic which was Jons track record of betrayal during this season, much of which probably contributed to Danys loss of restraint. 

[kissdbyfire]

Drogon should have flown in sooner and roasted both Dany and Jon. The former for being a nutjob, the latter for being too stupid to live. In fact, Drogon should have incinerated the whole fucking lot of them, starting w/ Tyrion, even before Dany and Jon. And then flown away into the sunset to find a she-dragon and live happily ever after, while Ghost could find a she-direwolf and make direpuppies north of the Wall. 

Because after series 8 Drogon and Ghost are literally the only two characters I actually care about. 

[Apoplexy]

32 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Drogon should have flown in sooner and roasted both Dany and Jon. The former for being a nutjob, the latter for being too stupid to live. In fact, Drogon should have incinerated the whole fucking lot of them, starting w/ Tyrion, even before Dany and Jon. And then flown away into the sunset to find a she-dragon and live happily ever after, while Ghost could find a she-direwolf and make direpuppies north of the Wall. 

Because after series 8 Drogon and Ghost are literally the only two characters I actually care about. 

My brother texted me the exact same thing after watching the finale plus he said (and I concur) the only thing he liked about the episode was seeing ghost on screen.

[Apoplexy]

On 5/22/2019 at 6:35 PM, Techmaester said:

Am I the only one who considered this season to essentially consist of Jon progressively betraying Daenerys more and more finalizing in him stabbing her to death? He rejected her post finding out about his parentage. He gave that information to his cousins which she asked him not to. He baited her into to going on a manic rant about conquest which he then used to justify stabbing her. He accomplished that stabbing via exploiting her love for him ending in her death. He didn't even have the decency to commit suicide in the process(joint murder/suicide is the ONLY way it would have been a remotely acceptable outcome).  

Considering the fact she risked her life and sacrificed her forces to save him and the north I think it was fundamentally out of character for him to have killed her, particularly in this way. Even if she was becoming evil or out of control her contribution was so great to him personally that nothing justified his actions.

My critique of this season(and episode) is not that Daenerys dies but she dies under circumstances that only lead to two conclusions, either Jon never fundamentally cared about her to begin with or the writers retconned his character.  

Dany's actions are on Dany. Jon wasn't responsible for her craziness and he didn't betray her. Well he did kill her, but that's murder not betrayal He literally kept repeating 'she is my queen' all season long.

I agree, burning down an entire city of civilians was out of character for show Dany, but Jon had nothing to do with it. It was the show runners' bad writing and execution.

[Techmaester]

2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Dany's actions are on Dany. Jon wasn't responsible for her craziness and he didn't betray her. Well he did kill her, but that's murder not betrayal He literally kept repeating 'she is my queen' all season long.

I agree, burning down an entire city of civilians was out of character for show Dany, but Jon had nothing to do with it. It was the show runners' bad writing and execution.

He did exactly that as outlined in prior posts. His entire arc this season was about that betrayal of her. Repeating a phrase but failing to truly act in a way consistent with it makes it meaningless as we have seen. 

Dany shouldn't have to order him to not tell his cousins about his parentage, simply asking would have been enough had he cared about her(and really she pretty much ordered him not to). But from that point forward it was clear where the show was headed. Basically Dany got conned into saving the north and ended up dying for it.  

[Apoplexy]

8 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

He did exactly that as outlined in prior posts. His entire arc this season was about that betrayal of her. Repeating a phrase but failing to truly act in a way consistent with it makes it meaningless as we have seen. 

 

I disagree. He supported her all throughout the season, to a fault. Not reciprocating her love and questioning her actions is not the same as betrayal.

9 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

 Dany shouldn't have to order him to not tell his cousins about his parentage, simply asking would have been enough had he cared about her(and really she pretty much ordered him not to). But from that point forward it was clear where the show was headed. Basically Dany got conned into saving the north and ended up dying for it.  

What justifies Dany's telling/ordering Jon to hide the truth?

[Techmaester]

27 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I disagree. He supported her all throughout the season, to a fault. Not reciprocating her love and questioning her actions is not the same as betrayal.

What justifies Dany's telling/ordering Jon to hide the truth?

He supported her while it was convenient and beneficial to. Even the destruction of Kings Landing was in the interest of the North. Not once did he attempt to have an actual conversation with her or talk about her decisions(beyond stabbing her at the end). Considering her love is what rescued Jon and what brought her North instead of scorching kings landing at the end of season 7, I would say he has an obligation to reciprocate it. 

What justifies it is that telling his cousins will work to undermine her rule(as we so clearly saw), given the sacrifices made by Dany Jon shutting up is the least he could do.

Ultimately your response will come down to saying Dany shouldn't have done anything she did for Jon as he feels no real obligation to her and I would say that's right. Honor doesn't exist in GoT in spite of what is pretended.  What Dany should have done is march into kings landing in season 7, burn it down and let Jon deal with the night king. 

[Charles Stuart]

34 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

He supported her while it was convenient and beneficial to. Even the destruction of Kings Landing was in the interest of the North. Not once did he attempt to have an actual conversation with her or talk about her decisions(beyond stabbing her at the end). Considering her love is what rescued Jon and what brought her North instead of scorching kings landing at the end of season 7, I would say he has an obligation to reciprocate it. 

What justifies it is that telling his cousins will work to undermine her rule(as we so clearly saw), given the sacrifices made by Dany Jon shutting up is the least he could do.

Ultimately your response will come down to saying Dany shouldn't have done anything she did for Jon as he feels no real obligation to her and I would say that's right. Honor doesn't exist in GoT in spite of what is pretended.  What Dany should have done is march into kings landing in season 7, burn it down and let Jon deal with the night king. 

So go straight for the throne and disregard the safety of the entire kingdom from the looming white walker threat?

Just proving how unfit she is to rule even more so. Even stannis knew better than that.

[Apoplexy]

30 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

He supported her while it was convenient and beneficial to. Even the destruction of Kings Landing was in the interest of the North. Not once did he attempt to have an actual conversation with her or talk about her decisions(beyond stabbing her at the end). Considering her love is what rescued Jon and what brought her North instead of scorching kings landing at the end of season 7, I would say he has an obligation to reciprocate it. 

What justifies it is that telling his cousins will work to undermine her rule(as we so clearly saw), given the sacrifices made by Dany Jon shutting up is the least he could do.

Ultimately your response will come down to saying Dany shouldn't have done anything she did for Jon as he feels no real obligation to her and I would say that's right. Honor doesn't exist in GoT in spite of what is pretended.  What Dany should have done is march into kings landing in season 7, burn it down and let Jon deal with the night king. 

How was it convenient for Jon to kill Dany? And love cannot be forced or reciprocated as an obligation. Well, it can, but it would be dishonest, something Jon would likely not do.

Dany asking Jon to not tell his cousins about his claim meant she believed hers was better. I'm not so sure about that. I dont have an opinion one way or another, but I cannot say Dany's is better than Jon's.

I'm not saying Dany shouldn't have done anything for Jon. I'm saying she shouldn't have burnt down KL regardless of how her relationship with Jon was at that stage. And that's on her, not Jon.

[Techmaester]

16 minutes ago, Charles Stuart said:

So go straight for the throne and disregard the safety of the entire kingdom from the looming white walker threat?

Just proving how unfit she is to rule even more so. Even stannis knew better than that.

That's exactly what Cersi did and the result was successfully embedding herself into KL. Dany got nothing out of it, she supposed that helping Jon would give her loyalty but it clearly didn't given his actions. 

If this show proved anything all that matters is that rapid, violent and ruthless wars need to be waged and ended as soon as possible when you have an overwhelming force. Danys mercy resulted in the deaths of her friends and people until she finally said no more. It was her restraint that failed these last two seasons and had she entered her campaign in episode 5 when she first landed, the war would have been completed.  

But anyway getting back to the point she got nothing out of Jon but loss, disappointment and betrayal. 

[Charles Stuart]

I can agree in regards to her being disappointed in Jon. She wanted a loyal lackey who supported her every whim and command and to stand by and support every massacre she committed in the name of her apparently "better" vision which only she could see.

So yeah, I can understand if she was disappointed that Jon had other ideas and priorities. 

[Techmaester]

2 minutes ago, Charles Stuart said:

I can agree in regards to her being disappointed in Jon. She wanted a loyal lackey who supported her every whim and command and to stand by and support every massacre she committed in the name of her apparently "better" vision which only she could see.

So yeah, I can understand if she was disappointed that Jon had other ideas and priorities. 

So we agree from the perspective of her successful conquest, it was neither beneficial or logical for Dany to have either saved Jon or committed her forces to his battle? That it would have been fundamentally better for her to immediately fly into kings landing and burn it down? 

Do we also acknowledge that she knows but choses not to do it for Jon?

If we accept the above it's pretty darn hard to not think Jon fundamentally owes her.  Ned would probably have beheaded him for his actions and lack of loyalty. 

[CrypticWeirwood]

20 hours ago, Vanadis said:

Then the show could end with Jon as a miserable emo king sitting on a throne he didn't want.

Emoking means what? Esmoking hot? Visigoth or Transylvanian? 

[Kaapstad]

6 hours ago, RFL said:

We are defending Dany’s actions by citing Cersei.  Does that mean we hold up Cersei as good?   

The common folk were living happily under Cersei. Certainly better I think than how they would live under Bran. 

[Charles Stuart]

47 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

So we agree from the perspective of her successful conquest, it was neither beneficial or logical for Dany to have either saved Jon or committed her forces to his battle? That it would have been fundamentally better for her to immediately fly into kings landing and burn it down? 

Do we also acknowledge that she knows but choses not to do it for Jon?

If we accept the above it's pretty darn hard to not think Jon fundamentally owes her.  Ned would probably have beheaded him for his actions and lack of loyalty. 

It wasn't just his battle though, it was her own too. 

If she had taken king's landing and told Jon too bad, all daeny would have ensured is that she would be sitting on the throne when the NK inevitably showed up at KL with a far bigger army which she wouldn't be able to stop. 

She needed to go north as much as Jon did. 

And again, her burning down a city , the capital city she intends to rule from is not in her own interests. All she will do is ensure an insurgency of people rightfully angry at her rule and eventually her own assassination. Much like what happened in Mereen.

 Questions of good and evil aside, you don't destroy the city and population you intend to rule. Especially in the name of liberation from tyranny.

Ned probably would have reluctantly beheaded Jon for the act of disloyalty to his queen, but Ned probably would have approved of the act of disloyalty itself too. Duty is the death of love after all.

[Rose of Red Lake]

If you rewatch the scene where she tells him not to tell anyone about Jon's secret, she's acting like an abuser. The director said "she almost lost it," - and you can see it in her eyes. She's acting like her throne matters more than his identity or his own truth. She's asking him to lie to his own family and burdening him with guilt. She takes a fact that he has no control over and turns it into a nightmare situation for him. No wonder he slowly betrays her.

So yeah, I agree with OP to an extent. What was the whole "let it be fear" about  if not that he's rejecting her because of what she did to Varys and what she says about Sansa? I see these signs too, but I dont think the show fully committed to Jon's defiance. I think the books will though.

Dany was always going to be betrayed by someone close to her, ever since that line in Book 1, Chapter 1, about hoping all men in the Seven Kingdoms weren't false. 

[Kaapstad]

9 hours ago, Sheiraseastar23 said:

I agree,it's easy to feel special in her circumstances, but it does take a mentally unstable person to fall into that trap and develop a god complex, which she did.

I mean almost all of us agree that the writing has been bad over the last 3 to 4 seasons, and that there had to be more buildup towards this, but claiming that it came totally out of the blue is ridiculous. People have been arguing on these forums about Dany eventualy going down this path for years before the show ever aired.

Cersei was ready to kill everyone in the world who opposed her because the only thing which matters is her family and for the betterment of the realm as she herself mentions. THe point I am trying to make is that the characters who call her "mad" are hypocritical. Almost everyone is a sadist if we compare what Dany did in Meereen  

Arya calls her a killer. Pretty sure if she had a dragon the first thing Sansa and Arya would have done was torch all the Boltons, and the Frey’s and gone to KL to avenge their father and torched it anyway. 

If the writers intended us to believe she was mad, they should have had her do things which were unspeakably evil to persuade us. The very fact that people need to explain she was mad shows they have done something wrong. 

And yes in my opinion the books show her eventual madness much better than the show does because of her internal monologues. But in the show hey show her as some kind of power girl feminist icon liberating cities and being a super hero. IMO they tried to milk this version of Dany as it was increasing viewership and her fandom was too huge to piss off despite knowing her outcome hence they waited right till the end to pull the rug out from under her.