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Techmaester

A season of Jons betrayal

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17 minutes ago, Vanadis said:

Very strange then that all her men didn't kill Jon in the ending we got if they were that powerful (even though I agree, Drogon should have done it. I suppose the dragon's mercy is meant to be a sign that Dany isn't really dead after all.)

But, if someone thinks his way of murdering Dany makes Jon less honorable, I have no problem seeing where they're coming from. It's well established in "overall fiction" that killing someone who is unaware what you're up to is less honorable than stating your intentions first.

I suspect the trope "killing your lover who turned out to be evil while holding her in your arms" was just more important to portray than going down a more nontraditional route.

Perhaps in the end I would be willing to claim that the big subverting of expectations we got in Season 8 was that the show went from subverting our expectations to becoming just another standard fantasy story.

Nah, I would have much preferred another standard fantasy story.

This wasn't even that. It was shitty and anything but satisfying. At least those standard fantasy stories are bittersweet at worst. This was a big pile of bitter.And it didn't even make a lick of sense.

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11 minutes ago, Gianna Dorenberg said:

 

Of course they F'd both of these characters up so badly. But based on what we got, it's sickening seeing the amount of Dany defenders. She is a mass murdering dictator, yet people still cheer her on. Disgusting really.

I see her as being more a loving parent, who has to chastise her children for their own good, occasionally.

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26 minutes ago, Vanadis said:

Very strange then that all her men didn't kill Jon in the ending we got if they were that powerful

Yeah, that didn't make a scratch of sense. Clearly the Unsullied and dothraki were mad that Jon killed Dany. But they just arrested him and held him in prison for some 4 months until all the lords arrived so they can demand execution. If Drogon didn't kill Jon and he was stupid (or honourable) enough to confess he killed Dany, Sansa&co should have been welcomed by Jon's lifeless body hung from the walls or his head on a spike. Then Sansa&co. would kill all the remaining Dany's men, Bran is elected the king, the end.

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There just has to be season 9, lol. Dany isn't dead after all, Drogon took her some place to get recovered. We have enough characters to carry on. Maybe not quite the next year but in ten or twenty.

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10 hours ago, Techmaester said:

Am I the only one who considered this season to essentially consist of Jon progressively betraying Daenerys more and more finalizing in him stabbing her to death? He rejected her post finding out about his parentage. He gave that information to his cousins which she asked him not to. He baited her into to going on a manic rant about conquest which he then used to justify stabbing her. He accomplished that stabbing via exploiting her love for him ending in her death. He didn't even have the decency to commit suicide in the process(joint murder/suicide is the ONLY way it would have been a remotely acceptable outcome).  

Considering the fact she risked her life and sacrificed her forces to save him and the north I think it was fundamentally out of character for him to have killed her, particularly in this way. Even if she was becoming evil or out of control her contribution was so great to him personally that nothing justified his actions.

My critique of this season(and episode) is not that Daenerys dies but she dies under circumstances that only lead to two conclusions, either Jon never fundamentally cared about her to begin with or the writers retconned his character.  

Apparently John should come out with a red label warning of killing his lovers. Hey girls stay away...

For a supposed hero who has gone through so much and has been betrayed himself, he is dumb as hell. He shares his parentage with Sansa despite Dany’s warnings about Sansa. He doesn’t recognize the political implications that may come out of this, because “that’s family”. Well he trusted his family and they used him as a political weapon. 

So much they cared about his true heritage of the kingdom that when the time comes to share the power, they don’t even bring him up. And he doesn’t even see how he was used. 

As for Dany no he didn’t love her as much as he loved his family, he makes this choice again and again but he hasn’t the guts to oppose to her and becomes a queenslayer. Again this has not heroic, nobody will call him a hero, everybody recognizes that this was a treason so they let him go North and take the black. 

What is even more delirious is that Jon hadn’t though of killing Dany, it is Tyrion that puts the thought in his head. After using multiple arguments and failing to persuade him, Tyrion brings up Jon’s family and this closes the deal. Not for one moment does Jon question Tyrion’s motives: Tyrion will be executed, just needs someone to bail him out and kill Dany before Dany kills him for being a traitor. 

He is so damned fool that now we know why Ned kept this as a secret. Under Roberts reign he would have been killed in a day. 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Vanadis said:

Indeed. If your queen says "Do this and don't do that, otherwise it will endanger my rule," you don't say "But..."
If you're loyal to her, you say "Okay."

- And, they should just have married and revealed the secret anyway. The whole storyline was contrived.

Contrived writing on top of contrived writing to remove any shade of grey and allow everyone to cheer as Jon knifed the woman he was supposed to love, and who he had sworn fealty to.

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4 minutes ago, JagLover said:

Contrived writing on top of contrived writing to remove any shade of grey and allow everyone to cheer as Jon knifed the woman he was supposed to love, and who he had sworn fealty to.

But, so obviously contrived, that in the end, most viewers neither cheered at Dany's death, nor thought they had been watching a great tragedy.

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1 hour ago, Davidlopan said:

Gloriously badass though they are, I actually think GRRM made the dragons a bit too powerful... D&D had to perform some truly wince-inducing narrative contortions in seasons 7 & 8 to keep Dany off the throne while she had dragon-power, it was ridiculous by the story's internal logic

That's not GRRM's fault, that's D&D's own mistake of omitting Dragonbinder and F!Aegon coming back to haunt them.

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4 hours ago, Mikkel said:

The mind boggles at the mental gymnastics some people go through to make Jon the bad guy.

Too true.

Jon has to decide for and against Daenerys several times in the season and he always sticks with his family, That makes a lot of sense to me. 

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1 hour ago, Vanadis said:



But, if someone thinks his way of murdering Dany makes Jon less honorable, I have no problem seeing where they're coming from. It's well established in "overall fiction" that killing someone who is unaware what you're up to is less honorable than stating your intentions first.

I suspect the trope "killing your lover who turned out to be evil while holding her in your arms" was just more important to portray than going down a more nontraditional route.
 

Re: See the kitchyness of X-Men Last Stand. I got more feels from Wolverine stabbing Phoenix than this. 

Though I guess Bland!Jon would be testing his fireproof thingy if he had announced 'u sycho bitx, ima kill u'

 

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- Jon told his extended family his parentage in spite of Dany explaining the implications. It showed a total lack of caring from the beginning for someone who saved you. 

- Jon failed to really challenge or disagree with Dany except at the end when he killed her. His entire conversation up to that point was baiting her into justifying his actions. It's an extreme case of saying you want a divorce before going to a marriage counselor and was fundamentally cowardly.

Nothing Jon did was consistent with someone who loved Dany, even the invasion of Kings Landing was beneficial to the North and the northerners were more than happy to slaughter a city which had consistently waged war on them for 7 seasons prior. 

The statement about the pack surviving was true but Jon's pack was Dany as much as the Starks though he failed to accept it.

 

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8 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

- Jon told his extended family his parentage in spite of Dany explaining the implications. It showed a total lack of caring from the beginning for someone who saved you. 

Daenerys made him choose between her and his family. That was a stupid idea to start with.

Of course it is right that Jon tells Sansa and Arya the truth. They deserve it and they are his closest family. Bran knows anyway.

9 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

showed a total lack of caring

If someone pressured me into lying to my family, I would judge that exactly oppositely. 

10 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

Jon failed to really challenge or disagree with Dany

Yes, they should have all talked more openly. But knowing Daenerys that would have been the end to some of them. She was viciously violent with her punishments. Not open for discussions really.

12 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

Nothing Jon did was consistent with someone who loved Dany

What wasn't? Be more clear, please.

12 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

The statement about the pack surviving was true but Jon's pack was Dany as much as the Starks though he failed to accept it.

I don't rate fresh infatuation to make the other one instantly be "pack" as in closest family. That's not how it works.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Daenerys made him choose between her and his family. That was a stupid idea to start with.

Of course it is right that Jon tells Sansa and Arya the truth. They deserve it and they are his closest family. Bran knows anyway.

If someone pressured me into lying to my family, I would judge that exactly oppositely. 

Yes, they should have all talked more openly. But knowing Daenerys that would have been the end to some of them. She was viciously violent with her punishments. Not open for discussions really.

What wasn't? Be more clear, please.

I don't rate fresh infatuation to make the other one instantly be "pack" as in closest family. That's not how it works.

Dany was Jon's family as much as any living Stark. Dany knew what the result would be and she was right. Sansa knew what the result would be and she used it on purpose. As wrote already Jon not listening to her and understanding the implications of it was the start of his betrayal. You don't do that to someone who is sacrificing to save you, repeatedly, you don't do it to someone you claimed you loved(even if he pussied out and went "eww muh aunt" he still has a moral obligation to support her given her actions to help him.)

Danys violence was not inconsistent with the rest of the rulers and usually appropriately directed. There is no evidence Jon would have died had he talked openly to Dany and even if he would have it was his obligation to instead of deciding to stab her(being the most cowardly act possible)

Edited by Techmaester

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11 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

Dany was Jon's family as much as any living Stark. Dany knew what the result would be and she was right. Sansa knew what the result would be and she used it on purpose. As wrote already Jon not listening to her and understanding the implications of it was the start of his betrayal. You don't do that to someone who is sacrificing to save you, repeatedly, you don't do it to someone you claimed you loved(even if he pussied out and went "eww muh aunt" he still has a moral obligation to support her given her actions to help him.)

Danys violence was not inconsistent with the rest of the rulers and usually appropriately directed. There is no evidence Jon would have died had he talked openly to Dany and even if he would have it was his obligation to instead of deciding to stab her(being the most cowardly act possible)

Jon: I owe them the truth. 

Dany: Even if the truth destroys us?

Jon: It won't. 

Dany: Sansa will want to see me going and you on the Iron Throne...

Jon: She won't...

Sansa to Tyrion: What if there was someone better? 

LOL... 

Jon is in denial that this will have any political impact on them. He assures Dany repeatedly. He is even sure about Sansa. 

He is stupid. Seriously stupid.  

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 Jon became more of a dramatic lever than a character this season. His actions were so random and unbelievable that I struggled to engage with him on any level. Even his claim to the throne was a mere narrative prod which ultimately came to nothing... I found it strange that nobody mentions it at the council, despite him being the technical heir. I presumed that was what Varys' letters were all about?

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40 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

- Jon told his extended family his parentage in spite of Dany explaining the implications. It showed a total lack of caring from the beginning for someone who saved you. 

- Jon failed to really challenge or disagree with Dany except at the end when he killed her. His entire conversation up to that point was baiting her into justifying his actions. It's an extreme case of saying you want a divorce before going to a marriage counselor and was fundamentally cowardly.

Nothing Jon did was consistent with someone who loved Dany, even the invasion of Kings Landing was beneficial to the North and the northerners were more than happy to slaughter a city which had consistently waged war on them for 7 seasons prior. 

The statement about the pack surviving was true but Jon's pack was Dany as much as the Starks though he failed to accept it.

 

Not sure if trolling or being deliberately delusional...

His sisters are not extended family, they're the only family he has along with Bran who already knew.

It was very obvious that Jon was conflicted about Dany's ways of handling things, but remained to be loyal up until the very end, and her possibly going after his siblings is what made him reconsider. 

Everything Jon did was very consistent with his character throughout the series. It's always the conflict of choosing duty or love, and he always chose duty. He chose duty to stay at NW, when Robb called the banners, he chose duty to the NW over his love for Ygritte, and in the end he chose duty to protect the world from a mad tyrant over his love for Dany. 

 

He knew Dany for how long? A few months? His pack are his siblings, Dany could have become part of that pack in time, if she didn't go bonkers.

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Sheiraseastar23 said:

Not sure if trolling or being deliberately delusional...

His sisters are not extended family, they're the only family he has along with Bran who already knew.

It was very obvious that Jon was conflicted about Dany's ways of handling things, but remained to be loyal up until the very end, and her possibly going after his siblings is what made him reconsider. 

Everything Jon did was very consistent with his character throughout the series. It's always the conflict of choosing duty or love, and he always chose duty. He chose duty to stay at NW, when Robb called the banners, he chose duty to the NW over his love for Ygritte, and in the end he chose duty to protect the world from a mad tyrant over his love for Dany. 

 

He knew Dany for how long? A few months? His pack are his siblings, Dany could have become part of that pack in time, if she didn't go bonkers.

Genetically he was closer to Dany, the Starks were not his brothers nor did they ever truly treat him as equal. His duty was to the person he declared for, who sacrificed for him which was Dany. His duty was as much to his Targaryen lineage as his Starks, a lineage hidden from him and his only response to was "ai dun wunt eht."

Truly a disgusting character.

Edited by Techmaester

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1 minute ago, Techmaester said:

Genetically he was closer to Dany, the Starks were not his brothers nor did they ever truly treat him as equal. His duty was to the person he declared for, who sacrificed for him which was Dany. His duty was as much to his Targaryen lineage as his Starks, a lineage hidden from him and his only response to is  "ai dun wunt eht."

Truly a disgusting character.

Ok, now I'm sure it's trolling.

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47 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

Dany was Jon's family as much as any living Stark.

Formally yes, emotionally not so much.

He has grown up with the Stark and her sisters feel and recognise him as brother and he feels them to be his sisters. 

A simple bloodline aunt/nephew thing that was just revealed shortly before. He has problems kissing her because of the relation, but he has not that familiarity, trust or deep bonding to her that comes with growing up together.

Anyway, Jon has to decide between the "Stark family pack" and Daenerys. Phrase it as you wish.

50 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

Dany knew what the result would be and she was right.

Yes, Daenerys realised that her "birthright" just evaporated. She wanted to cheat the people and to take a throne that was not hers. He held tight to her brainwashed childhood dreams instead of taking reality a bit more serious. If birthright was so important to her, she should have supported Jon. Marry him and rule together or whatever. But not trying to convince him to keep a secret from his closest family.

52 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

You don't do that to someone who is sacrificing to save you

Did she? The beat a common enemy. An enemy to all of them, not just to Jon. 

53 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

being the most cowardly act possible

You don't think it requires balls to do this?! Really?

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