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What was the point of r+l=j


QueenAnne

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It will obviously turn out important in the books, if GRRM ever gets around to finishing them, but on the show it's pretty pointless. But then the show dumped everything it built up to, so it's no surprise.

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In the show, it mostly only mattered to drive a wedge between Dany and Jon: Dany got jealous of Jon's better claim even if he had no desire to press it. Whether it'll matter more in the books (if they're ever finished) only GRRM can tell.

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There was no point. Rhaegar and Lyanna gave their lives and started a war for nothing. Some have said he was instrumental in defeating the WW's but it was actually due to his actions that the Wall was brought down. If he'd never been born, the Wall would probably still be standing and the WW's would be safely beyond it 

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D&D basically did next to nothing with this plot twist, which is rather sad. I know figuring out ten years ago got them to job, granted most of us probably figured it out much sooner.

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I clicked on the link to say exactly this, but I see others beat me to it: It is important in the novels. Not so much in the show. Though it's a nice twist in the show as well.

Now another question: Who is to say he doesn't just go to his family home Winterfell and stay there for a while? Or for the rest of his life if he wants to? Who'd stop him, the Night's Watch? King's Landing, capital in another country?

Frankly, they could change the Night's Watch a bit. Make it so that at least those who sign up voluntarily can have families. They could have plots of land in the area just south of the Wall, which is depopulated. Even more so now that the undead have walked all over it. Populating that area could be a decent task for the NW, now that they don't have to look for the undead threat anymore.

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Just another example of how bad the storytelling ended in these past couple of seasons.  I think back to the episode where the camera goes from the baby on Lyanna's death bed to Jon in Winterfell, the grand reveal music is playing, and you feel like this is one of the most incredible, significant moments of the show.  As it turns out, just one of the couple of things that help Dany have a psychotic break within the span of a couple of episodes.  I can't believe GRRM doesn't plan for it to be have more significance in the books.  

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10 hours ago, QueenAnne said:

just to make daenerys go full MAD QUEEN? if you were to cut that out nothing would change

what do you think?

The writing this season has been nothing short of terrible - BUT - R+L=J is key because it's the catalyst behind Jon's lineage which is the catalyst behind Dany's attack on Queen's Landing. That clear isn't it?

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I felt as if it was, along with the conclusion ('the ruler of the kingdom will not inherit the throne'), to show that actually the best ruler isn't necessarily the one with the divine right to rule (or even 'might is right'). But the best qualified person as demonstrated by the behaviour and as approved by their peers.

Jon would have been a good ruler EVEN IF he didn't happen to be the fairly tale lost prince, wouldn't he?

He could have been a massive arse and still been the heir to the throne, should he have still ruled then?

 

It's a big fuck off to prophecies and the significance of blood (you know, and why did Dany have the right to rule anyway? 300 years before the present day, her family were conquerors ('might is right') so not like she had any more right than anyone else in Westeros).

I don't want to say red herring... but maybe R&L works like that in the show. LOL

This season has certainly thrown up a lot of questions about power and the right to rule.

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It will probably play some important role in the books, but D&D couldn't think of any way to incorporate it into their adaptation, which seems pretty weird to me considering GRRM let them make the show after them correctly guessing Jon's parents, so you would think they would've put more thought into that plot point. 

In the books there is no way Jon is coming back as the mopey doormat he was on the show. He will be darker, and him finding out he isn't the honorable Eddard Stark's son might make him actually go after the throne. 

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8 hours ago, Jarl Halstein said:

I clicked on the link to say exactly this, but I see others beat me to it: It is important in the novels. Not so much in the show. Though it's a nice twist in the show as well.

Now another question: Who is to say he doesn't just go to his family home Winterfell and stay there for a while? Or for the rest of his life if he wants to? Who'd stop him, the Night's Watch? King's Landing, capital in another country?

Frankly, they could change the Night's Watch a bit. Make it so that at least those who sign up voluntarily can have families. They could have plots of land in the area just south of the Wall, which is depopulated. Even more so now that the undead have walked all over it. Populating that area could be a decent task for the NW, now that they don't have to look for the undead threat anymore.

The thing is the show kinda makes it seems like he leaves Westeros forever. When the door closes, he gives one long look back at it as if letting go of his past life, then he smiles and moves on. In addition we have the tearful farewells, with his sisters which sound painfully final as if he won’t see him again. There’s a lot of foreshadowing that he doesn’t return. 

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The point was to make Jon care enough to not want to be in a relationship with his aunt and to screw her over politically while making sure he was too dense, ambitionless and traitorous to actually care about his parents and bloodline. 

For once he wasn't a bastard but he threw it all away because of his fear of leading. 

Made me hate his character even more.

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Many of the reasons for Jon's lineage revolve around Dany's character revelation. As Varys said, it was information. Perhaps many expected some grandiose significance in a larger-than-life presentation but, in the end, it was information. This is one of the reasons I feel this story is so excellent - it is low-key and subtle. Things play critical roles, but in a more personal and subtle way.

In that regard, the information caused a rift in Dany's advisors, and a rift between her and Jon Snow, thus effectively removing the last things she had acquired leaving her in a state in which she had not yet experienced, allowing a revelation of character in a crisis situation. At the core of it, it provided Bran the information to use as the catalyst to place the remaining Starks, where they belonged. This information also allowed Sansa to play a critical role in the outcome.

Jon's lineage also played a critical role in allowing him to be the only person capable of passing Drogon at the Red Keep to get to Dany. Much like Arya was the only one capable of passing through to get the Night King. Whereas it was Arya "lineage" through her story arc of specific training, it was Jon's actual lineage that allowed him to do so. It also allowed Jon to survive the wrath of Drogon. So because of his lineage, Jon was the only person capable of overcoming the figurative darkness, as Arya overcame the literal darkness.

Also, Jon's lineage of "fire and ice" serves as symbolism of his nature of properly mediating the two opposing symbolic forces which, when unchecked alone, build out of control into life-threatening forces. Of course, the Night King is ice, the Dragon Queen is fire - both highly destructive forces when unchecked; Jon being the union of the two forces, properly contained in harmony with one another, thus transmuting the destructive forces into a catalyst for positive change.

There is more but suffice it to say that the story would've played out completely differently had Jon's lineage been different.

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I believe the show runners thought it was enough to justify a rift between Jon and Dany. Hence the Jon telling Sansa and Arya and Sansa telling Tyrion nonsense. When Dany realizes that Tyrion knows, she figures out Jon went back on his word.

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1 hour ago, John Meta said:

Many of the reasons for Jon's lineage revolve around Dany's character revelation. As Varys said, it was information. Perhaps many expected some grandiose significance in a larger-than-life presentation but, in the end, it was information. This is one of the reasons I feel this story is so excellent - it is low-key and subtle. Things play critical roles, but in a more personal and subtle way.

In that regard, the information caused a rift in Dany's advisors, and a rift between her and Jon Snow, thus effectively removing the last things she had acquired leaving her in a state in which she had not yet experienced, allowing a revelation of character in a crisis situation. At the core of it, it provided Bran the information to use as the catalyst to place the remaining Starks, where they belonged. This information also allowed Sansa to play a critical role in the outcome.

Jon's lineage also played a critical role in allowing him to be the only person capable of passing Drogon at the Red Keep to get to Dany. Much like Arya was the only one capable of passing through to get the Night King. Whereas it was Arya "lineage" through her story arc of specific training, it was Jon's actual lineage that allowed him to do so. It also allowed Jon to survive the wrath of Drogon. So because of his lineage, Jon was the only person capable of overcoming the figurative darkness, as Arya overcame the literal darkness.

Also, Jon's lineage of "fire and ice" serves as symbolism of his nature of properly mediating the two opposing symbolic forces which, when unchecked alone, build out of control into life-threatening forces. Of course, the Night King is ice, the Dragon Queen is fire - both highly destructive forces when unchecked; Jon being the union of the two forces, properly contained in harmony with one another, thus transmuting the destructive forces into a catalyst for positive change.

There is more but suffice it to say that the story would've played out completely differently had Jon's lineage been different.

He could have been a Stark/Targ bastard and still be fire and ice. Aegon Sand would still be a hero. 

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If Tyrion had talked Jon into claiming his birth right instead of killing Dany, the secret would have had a good payoff. I don't buy the portrayal of Dany in season 8, since it was obviously done to make us root for Jon and not in an attempt to explore her character, but even given the ending we got I think she would have refrained from killing Aegon Targaryen, true king of Westeros, and her nephew. 

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