What was the point of r+l=j

[CrypticWeirwood]

6 hours ago, btfu806 said:

The show obviously didn't know what to do with R+L=J. They knew it was important but I guess never found out from George why it was important. So it became a way to make her slightly more mad. It wasn't even the tipping point. D&D just dropped the important of the plot line because it was too hard to figure out or tie in, it wasn't the first time they did it and we shouldn't be surprised by their laziness.

It was important to the show because it made Jon's conscious decision to end the Targaryen dynasty forever extremely poignant and fitting.

He knew what they were. He wanted no part of it, and as the rightful heir there can be no person more fit to both sentence that dynasty to death but to swing the sword that snuffs it out.

Or in this case, thrust the dagger into its heart.

It wouldn't have meant much if he hadn't been who he is. But because that is who he is, it made it mean much, much, much more.

[Techmaester]

1 hour ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

It was important to the show because it made Jon's conscious decision to end the Targaryen dynasty forever extremely poignant and fitting.

He knew what they were. He wanted no part of it, and as the rightful heir there can be no person more fit to both sentence that dynasty to death but to swing the sword that snuffs it out.

Or in this case, thrust the dagger into its heart.

It wouldn't have meant much if he hadn't been who he is. But because that is who he is, it made it mean much, much, much more.

Committing ethnic genocide is good when they are bad people? Damn, that's pretty cold there martin. 

[btfu806]

9 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

It was important to the show because it made Jon's conscious decision to end the Targaryen dynasty forever extremely poignant and fitting.

He knew what they were. He wanted no part of it, and as the rightful heir there can be no person more fit to both sentence that dynasty to death but to swing the sword that snuffs it out.

Or in this case, thrust the dagger into its heart.

It wouldn't have meant much if he hadn't been who he is. But because that is who he is, it made it mean much, much, much more.

Your analysis is very good, if that's what the show presented to us. He killed her because she was a mass murderer. Never did we get him worried or anxious about ending the Targaryen dynasty, he seemed to not even care about it. He barely cared about Targaryen's in general. When does he try to learn more about his real mother and father? When does he try to learn more about his Targ family? Where does he fret over the huge impacts of his secret parents mean to himself and the realm. He doesn't.

He was upset because he loved Dany and killed her because she was going to kill others including his family in the North, which he obviously cared more about than him being a Targ.

So once again, it was useless.

[It_spelt_Magalhaes]

9 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

It was important to the show because it made Jon's conscious decision to end the Targaryen dynasty forever extremely poignant and fitting.

He knew what they were. He wanted no part of it, and as the rightful heir there can be no person more fit to both sentence that dynasty to death but to swing the sword that snuffs it out.

Or in this case, thrust the dagger into its heart.

It wouldn't have meant much if he hadn't been who he is. But because that is who he is, it made it mean much, much, much more.

So make it happen like that!

Open, obvious choice of doing bad things to bad people is a good thing for the greater good. Shitty as the rationale can be seen as, the good of the many justifies a whole lot.

Not some bland character only deciding to do so for personal reasons.

They way they did it, the point could be made that Jon was uncomfortable, nay horrified by what 'muh queen' had done.

But he wasn't going to do anything about it until he was slapped in the face with an emotional cost to him: Arya and Sansa.

Give me anything but this travesty.

You say even the actress is complaining she wasn't 'mad'? In ep. 5?!

Well, I didn't see that.

In the rally she went full 'I will rule as I see fit'. True. Full militaristic power base tyrant with an aggressive agenda that could only be achieved with grievous loss of life.

The Bells fiasco didn't ring of anything but complete detachment from reason. Even if you make the case that she didn't remain altered? 

I saw 'tenporary insanity'.

It was a cop out.

Make her do it on absolute purpose, show predetermination if only through a choice of valuable target. Go for the Keep. There's enough people hiding there to make it unforgivable and it's not endangering her own troops.

And to make Jon's choice a 'greater good' one, he'd go straight for her, do not pass Tyrion.

Straight up Tyranicide, as many have said it here.

He knew what House Targaryen was?

In the person of Daenerys?

House Targaryen was useful. Then they were dangerous.

So first use them, then get rid of them.

The threat of Winter is done. Now the threat to the status quo, the people, but in the end, for the swing vote?, to his sisters even, is Daenerys.

But then that might be the lesson.

The only way to overcome the 'absolute power' problem is to deny it challenge.

End it.

The world of Planetos grows poorer with less magic, but safe enough to continue as it was before.

No dragons, no white walkers, just a man and his tree and the same feudal system.

Martin will sell it better than this 'bullet points' idiocy.

[King Jon Snow Stark]

2 hours ago, btfu806 said:

Your analysis is very good, if that's what the show presented to us. He killed her because she was a mass murderer. Never did we get him worried or anxious about ending the Targaryen dynasty, he seemed to not even care about it. He barely cared about Targaryen's in general. When does he try to learn more about his real mother and father? When does he try to learn more about his Targ family? Where does he fret over the huge impacts of his secret parents mean to himself and the realm. He doesn't.

He was upset because he loved Dany and killed her because she was going to kill others including his family in the North, which he obviously cared more about than him being a Targ.

So once again, it was useless.

He learned that his mom and dad love each other. The woman he thought was Aunt was not raped. I dont think Jon cared past that. Why would he? He wasn't planning to take over House Targaryen that was Dany's thing. He was never fully a member of House Stark anyway. He went from Stark bastard to Stark Cousin. Jon seemed to only care about having Dany and Sansa get along. He failed at that miserably. On a different show Jon could have been the person who healed both houses. 

[btfu806]

21 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

He learned that his mom and dad love each other. The woman he thought was Aunt was not raped. I dont think Jon cared past that. Why would he? He wasn't planning to take over House Targaryen that was Dany's thing. He was never fully a member of House Stark anyway. He went from Stark bastard to Stark Cousin. Jon seemed to only care about having Dany and Sansa get along. He failed at that miserably. On a different show Jon could have been the person who healed both houses. 

I think if your entire life identity got turned upside down you would wonder a bit about your new identity (since he just saw himself/told constantly he was only a bastard).

But I agree that all he seemed to care about was having Dany and Sansa get along and failed at it. Him trying to heal both houses would have been an interesting story and tied up nicely. Figure Ned had just helped take down the last Targ king because he burned a live his father (and brother? If I remember right) and would have been nice that his nephew brought together the houses. Oh well, maybe in the books....

[Sir Hedge of Hog]

On 5/30/2019 at 2:08 PM, King Jon Snow Stark said:

He learned that his mom and dad love each other. The woman he thought was Aunt was not raped. I dont think Jon cared past that. Why would he? He wasn't planning to take over House Targaryen that was Dany's thing. He was never fully a member of House Stark anyway. He went from Stark bastard to Stark Cousin. Jon seemed to only care about having Dany and Sansa get along. He failed at that miserably. On a different show Jon could have been the person who healed both houses. 

that would have been great to see since he is good at uniting peoples and bringing them together. He always had a rivalry/problems with Sansa which were exacerbated by her becoming littlefinger 2.0 but the show allowed no time for him to consider what it meant to be a targ. he showed no interest (probs due to the incest problem) and he had doubts over his starkness but his sisters and bran were all he knew. however I am disappointed that their were no conversations with dany about targness or with anyone such as davos help him. one of the biggest disappointments for me was how his lineage felt inconsequential and irrelevant (although you can argue to was the final straw for dany)….on another show....

[King Jon Snow Stark]

23 hours ago, Sir Hedge of Hog said:

that would have been great to see since he is good at uniting peoples and bringing them together. He always had a rivalry/problems with Sansa which were exacerbated by her becoming littlefinger 2.0 but the show allowed no time for him to consider what it meant to be a targ. he showed no interest (probs due to the incest problem) and he had doubts over his starkness but his sisters and bran were all he knew. however I am disappointed that their were no conversations with dany about targness or with anyone such as davos help him. one of the biggest disappointments for me was how his lineage felt inconsequential and irrelevant (although you can argue to was the final straw for dany)….on another show....

In the end Jon is basically a Stark. He has Ghost again. Both Sansa and Arya are still using direwolves. Sansa’s crown and Arya has it on her ship. The only person who left the House was Bran. He is using a Raven symbol/sigil now.  

They didn’t dive in his Targ at all. Even in that short convo with Dany. He is fixated on Lyanna Stark’s statue. He doesn’t care to look around his fathers home Dragonstone. 

[Techmaester]

9 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

In the end Jon is basically a Stark. He has Ghost again. Both Sansa and Arya are still using direwolves. Sansa’s crown and Arya has it on her ship. The only person who he left the House was Bran. He is using a Raven symbol/sigil now.  

They didn’t dive in his Targ at all. Even in that short convo with Dany. He is fixated on Lyanna Stark’s statue. He doesn’t care to look around his fathers home Dragonstone. 

Another subversive message from martin or D&D IMO, you don't just ignore half your heritage that was hidden from you along with your fathers murder or the purging of half your family. It's absurd.  

[King Jon Snow Stark]

22 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

Another subversive message from martin or D&D IMO, you don't just ignore half your heritage that was hidden from you along with your fathers murder or the purging of half your family. It's absurd.  

There’s a lot of ways they could have acknowledged his other half. He could have take the black as Aegon Targaryen. He would still have Ghost and be a part of the time for wolves montage of him, Arya and Sansa.   

[Techmaester]

29 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

There’s a lot of ways they could have acknowledged his other half. He could have take the black as Aegon Targaryen. He would still have Ghost and be a part of the time for wolves montage of him, Arya and Sansa.   

There's no way for them to do it as for Jon to acknowledge it would mandate Aegon go on a war side by side with Dany. To accept the reality of who he was is to accept his responsibility to his family which at that point was Dany as much as the Starks.  

[King Jon Snow Stark]

10 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

There's no way for them to do it as for Jon to acknowledge it would mandate Aegon go on a war side by side with Dany. To accept the reality of who he was is to accept his responsibility to his family which at that point was Dany as much as the Starks.  

Targs went to war against each other before. People were talking about the dance of dragons on here. The writers were done with the show and wrapped it up. 

[CrypticWeirwood]

52 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

There's no way for them to do it as for Jon to acknowledge it would mandate Aegon go on a war side by side with Dany. To accept the reality of who he was is to accept his responsibility to his family which at that point was Dany as much as the Starks.  

Jon has no responsibility whatsoever to his dead ancestors’ gametes. Nobody does. Rhaegar was nothing but an unanonymous sperm donor for Jon. Jon never met those people.

Everything Jon is is 100% Stark and of the Eddard and Benjen flavor to boot. That's the point that Martin is making here. There's no fire and blood in Jon at all. If Theon who has no Stark gametes in his origin story is supposed to be considered half Stark because half his time growing up was under Eddard, then surely Jon is both halves Stark. 

It is nurture, not nature, that makes the boy the man. That's what Martin is telling us.

Screw the arrogantly self-entitled invaders who think they're fire's equivalent of a special snowflake and so they get special rules like incest is cool. Enough murder and burning and misery. Fire destroys, cold preserves. Let the cursed bloodline die the death it long deserved. No more evil dragonspawn for Westeros. Jon did the right thing for the right reason.

It's children's upbringing that makes them who they are. Their allegiance if any is to those who did that for them. Sperm donors don't count.

[CrypticWeirwood]

2 hours ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

In the end Jon is basically a Stark. He has Ghost again. Both Sansa and Arya are still using direwolves. Sansa’s crown and Arya has it on her ship. The only person who left the House was Bran. He is using a Raven symbol/sigil now.  

They didn’t dive in his Targ at all. Even in that short convo with Dany. He is fixated on Lyanna Stark’s statue. He doesn’t care to look around his fathers home Dragonstone. 

Keeping his tainted Targaryen blood secret was the second-best thing Jon ever did. Westeros does not want a seventh Blackfyre rebellion by royalist restorationalists rallying around poor Jon!

 (I'm assuming that Illyrio's "Aegon" né Young Griff shall have been the sixth Blackfyre rebellion when the books are all said and done.)

Bloodraven saw how horrible those rebellions were, again and again and again.  He sure isn't going to do anything to foster yet another calamity like that. Plus he'd rather sit on the throne himself.

[King Jon Snow Stark]

5 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Keeping his tainted Targaryen blood secret was the second-best thing Jon ever did. Westeros does not want a seventh Blackfyre rebellion by royalist restorationalists rallying around poor Jon!

 (I'm assuming that Illyrio's "Aegon" né Young Griff shall have been the sixth Blackfyre rebellion when the books are all said and done.)

Bloodraven saw how horrible those rebellions were, again and again and again.  He sure isn't going to do anything to foster yet another calamity like that. Plus he'd rather sit on the throne himself.

Do you think they would have been an issue if Jon was exposed as a legitimate Targaryen if Jon took the black or became kingsguard like one of the Aemon?

 

 

[CrypticWeirwood]

11 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Do you think they would have been an issue if Jon was exposed as a legitimate Targaryen if Jon took the black or became kingsguard like one of the Aemon?

I don't have enough confidence that either a white cloak or a black one would have been a safeguard guaranteed to spare him their follies if they knew the truth of his parentage.  Master Aemon went to the Wall in the company of his uncle, Bloodraven. That was the best way to protect him, but back then there were still good candidates via Aegon V and his progeny. Then after Robert, he was too old.

Jon has no such protection. He's young, he's the last of the line, he's the royalists' only hope, and he's well-loved by his people because he earned their love and respect instead of demanding it unearned. 

I figure they'd hunt him down to the smoking ruins of old Valyria itself if only they knew. Some people never give up. He deserves his own life. Keep it secret, keep it safe.

[Techmaester]

5 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Jon has no responsibility whatsoever to his dead ancestors’ gametes. Nobody does. Rhaegar was nothing but an unanonymous sperm donor for Jon. Jon never met those people.

Everything Jon is is 100% Stark and of the Eddard and Benjen flavor to boot. That's the point that Martin is making here. There's no fire and blood in Jon at all. If Theon who has no Stark gametes in his origin story is supposed to be considered half Stark because half his time growing up was under Eddard, then surely Jon is both halves Stark. 

It is nurture, not nature, that makes the boy the man. That's what Martin is telling us.

Screw the arrogantly self-entitled invaders who think they're fire's equivalent of a special snowflake and so they get special rules like incest is cool. Enough murder and burning and misery. Fire destroys, cold preserves. Let the cursed bloodline die the death it long deserved. No more evil dragonspawn for Westeros. Jon did the right thing for the right reason.

It's children's upbringing that makes them who they are. Their allegiance if any is to those who did that for them. Sperm donors don't count.

This is ridiculous, it amounts to saying that you should be able to interchange people at birth because their ancestry doesn't make a difference. Jon is Aegon, he is half Targaryen and he disgraced and dishonored the memory of his father and his ancestors. You don't get to ignore someones ancestry because you don't like the father LOL. 

[Lord Stackspear]

15 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Jon has no responsibility whatsoever to his dead ancestors’ gametes. Nobody does. Rhaegar was nothing but an unanonymous sperm donor for Jon. Jon never met those people.

Everything Jon is is 100% Stark and of the Eddard and Benjen flavor to boot. That's the point that Martin is making here. There's no fire and blood in Jon at all. If Theon who has no Stark gametes in his origin story is supposed to be considered half Stark because half his time growing up was under Eddard, then surely Jon is both halves Stark. 

It is nurture, not nature, that makes the boy the man. That's what Martin is telling us.

Screw the arrogantly self-entitled invaders who think they're fire's equivalent of a special snowflake and so they get special rules like incest is cool. Enough murder and burning and misery. Fire destroys, cold preserves. Let the cursed bloodline die the death it long deserved. No more evil dragonspawn for Westeros. Jon did the right thing for the right reason.

It's children's upbringing that makes them who they are. Their allegiance if any is to those who did that for them. Sperm donors don't count.

I think this is a completely fair reading of the story D&D told us.  And, IMO, that’s what makes the ending of the show so stupid.

If this is ultimately the story GRRM is telling, it will be equally dumb.  Why detail the 300 year history of House Targaryen in several books?  Why create this complex, rich universe for the last living family of old Valyria conquered the 7 kingdoms, ruled (some good, some bad) for 300 years, and then slowly began to diminish without their dragons, and were eventually deposed, only to have dragons suddenly reborn again by the least likely Targaryen woman under the least likely situation one might have imagined?  And, then this Targaryen woman goes on to achieve some pretty significant things - again, some good, some grey, and some bad - but still pretty incredible.  She struggles with her demons, struggles to rule, struggles to come up with a vision for the world and society.  So, tell this rich, complex, fantastical story, only for the point to be, if you had good parents, you turn out good, and if you had f’d up parents and were sold as a sex slave by your crazy brother, you’re going to turn so evil, you’ll need to be killed.

When you get to the end of such an amazing story, only for the ending to be some pointedly simple and stupid message that “it’s all about the parents,” you end up saying to yourself, what was the point?  As far as I can tell, basically, not much more than everything is meaningless - nihilism.  Might as well have had the NK win.   

I do hold out hope that GRRM is not ultimately writing such a stupid story. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

The fact that we don't know...

how Jon feels about Ned not being his father, how the Starks feel about Jon not being their brother, how he reconciles both sides of his family (if he even does), how he feels about Lyanna, how he feels about going back to the Watch, ect. ect....the fact that we don't know anything about this main character except 1) he doesn't want to be king and 2) Dany is his queen, illustrates that the entire season centered around Dany and her descent. Everything was about Dany, her POV, her pain, her fears, her losses, her strivings, her decisions. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

Fire and Blood was an anti-Targaryen book. The more he builds them up the harder they'll fall, in the fashion of pharaohs and conquerors. I think he's just trying to show rise and fall of empires first, then he has characters fit within that, as they grapple with the intersection of history and biography. If Dany's entire worldview depends on a lineage based on parentage, of course her parents are going to matter because she wants it to matter.