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Kaapstad

Do you think Jon will visit Tyrion, Sam, Bran and Sansa in the future?

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Posted (edited)

Jon has no reason staying at the Wall and it was implied he left with the Wildlings. If they wanted us to believe Jon stayed in the NW they wouldn't have showed him looking back at the gate closing and then disappearing in the woods. They could easily show Jon staying behind the gate looking at the Wildlings leaving.

Also, that scene where he disappears in the woods can suggest he will never come back south of the Wall.

And frankly speaking, after his family and friends basically pulled a NW move and stabbed him in the back, why should he even want to go and visit them?

Edited by Ruki88

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2 hours ago, Ruki88 said:

Jon has no reason staying at the Wall and it was implied he left with the Wildlibgs. If they wanted us to believe Jon stayed in the NW they wouldn't have showed him looking back at the gate closing and then disappearing in the woods. They could easily show Jon staying behind the gate looking at the Wildlings leaving.

Also, that scene where he disappears in the woods can suggest he will never come back south of the Wall.

And frankly speaking, after his family and friends basically pulled a NW move and stabbed him in the back, why should he even want to go and visit them?

How did they stab him in his back? The deal was necessary otherwise the Unsullied beheads Jon. 

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19 minutes ago, Kaapstad said:

How did they stab him in his back? The deal was necessary otherwise the Unsullied beheads Jon. 

One thing that pops in my mind is Arya being a faceless man. Kill Greyworm, take his face, get the Unsullied out of Westeros, Jon does not end being banished to the Wall. Hell, Arya was going to leave anyway, she might as well do 2 things in one go: help her brother and get to see new things.

Didn't Greyworm wanted Tyrion punished as well but he ends up.. Hand... of.. the... King...? He even gets to nominate the new king while still being in chains...?

Let's say they still banish him to the Wall to appease the Unsullied? What about after they leave? It feels like they're done with Westeros. What stops his family to revoke the punishment and keep him in the North and protect him kind of like what Ned did for him?

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49 minutes ago, Ruki88 said:

One thing that pops in my mind is Arya being a faceless man. Kill Greyworm, take his face, get the Unsullied out of Westeros, Jon does not end being banished to the Wall. Hell, Arya was going to leave anyway, she might as well do 2 things in one go: help her brother and get to see new things.

Didn't Greyworm wanted Tyrion punished as well but he ends up.. Hand... of.. the... King...? He even gets to nominate the new king while still being in chains...?

Let's say they still banish him to the Wall to appease the Unsullied? What about after they leave? It feels like they're done with Westeros. What stops his family to revoke the punishment and keep him in the North and protect him kind of like what Ned did for him?

Why so comlicated ? Dany and Jon were alone when he stabbed her. Then Drogon let the corpse and all evidence disappear.

He could have simply go away. But of course that would be underwhelming, too.

 

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Not just Arya being a Faceless Man being able to free Jon, freaking BRAN who can warg into people should be able to take control of Grey Worm and set Jon free. There was literally NO REASON for Jon to be banished. Daenerys hadn't become Queen yet, and the fact is that most of Westeros loved Jon instead. The only solace I can find is that Grey Worm and all the Unsullied who are not natives of Naath are doomed to croak from Butterfly Fever.

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, TheNecromancerofMirkwood said:

Not just Arya being a Faceless Man being able to free Jon, freaking BRAN who can warg into people should be able to take control of Grey Worm and set Jon free. There was literally NO REASON for Jon to be banished. Daenerys hadn't become Queen yet, and the fact is that most of Westeros loved Jon instead. The only solace I can find is that Grey Worm and all the Unsullied who are not natives of Naath are doomed to croak from Butterfly Fever.

Hence why I said his family and friends betrayed him and used him as a skapegoat to get their hands on the 7k. If you think about it, at that moment Jon was the rightful heir of 7k, Khal to the dothraki and kind of the king beyond the wall. Like, WTF?

The excuse that they were afraid of the Unsullied doesn't fly with me, pals.

Of course, the real reason is because D&D are morons, but if ppl are going to analyze what happened in story then yes, everyone stabbed him in the back after he kinda saved their bacon from ice and fire.

The only ppl who stayed loyal to him till the end were the wildlings. How ironic -the barbarians, rapists and raiders had more loyalty in their pinky finger than the kneelers. Ha.

Edited by Ruki88

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Ruki88 said:

Jon has no reason staying at the Wall and it was implied he left with the Wildlings. If they wanted us to believe Jon stayed in the NW they wouldn't have showed him looking back at the gate closing and then disappearing in the woods. They could easily show Jon staying behind the gate looking at the Wildlings leaving.

Also, that scene where he disappears in the woods can suggest he will never come back south of the Wall.

And frankly speaking, after his family and friends basically pulled a NW move and stabbed him in the back, why should he even want to go and visit them?

Well its not like he has anything better to do staying in an empty castle. They are his best friends. So obviously he goes with them to help them get settled. But it could be temporary or permanent, that’s the thing the show doesn’t outright confirm. If it was permanent why wasn’t there more powerful symbolism like him throwing off the Nights Watch cape as he rides or? Why are his sisters so tearful if he truly is going to enjoy a life with the wildlings in the far north?

3 hours ago, Ruki88 said:

One thing that pops in my mind is Arya being a faceless man. Kill Greyworm, take his face, get the Unsullied out of Westeros, Jon does not end being banished to the Wall. Hell, Arya was going to leave anyway, she might as well do 2 things in one go: help her brother and get to see new things.

Didn't Greyworm wanted Tyrion punished as well but he ends up.. Hand... of.. the... King...? He even gets to nominate the new king while still being in chains...?

Let's say they still banish him to the Wall to appease the Unsullied? What about after they leave? It feels like they're done with Westeros. What stops his family to revoke the punishment and keep him in the North and protect him kind of like what Ned did for him?

Well by that logic, the entire blame squarely falls only on Bran. Had he told everyone of euron’s Fleet, Rhaegal wouldn’t have died. Missandei wouldn’t die and Dany doesn’t go mad and all is well. 

I think they know he is as good as pardoned the moment the Unsullied leave which is why they don’t opt for violence. The north is now an independent kingdom. No one is going to stop him from moving into Winterfell and likely Jon doesn’t want to go south anyway. I feel the showrunners didn’t know what to do with Jon which is why they kept it kinda open ended. 

If Jon is pardoned, what would he do? Stay in Winterfell and become King of the North. Then what to do with Sansa?

If Jon is going to be permanently exiled to the far North what does he do there? Become a lumber jack. Let’s not pretend the far North is a good place to live, the wildlings were forever trying to break into castle black to get away in the first place. 

 

Although I do lean more towards that smile being more indicative that he is done with Westeros, it would have been good if they had given us a real epilogue. Not leave the saviour with a grim ending. He didn’t really act in the reunion with Sansa and Arya that he felt betrayed, it was extremely emotional. If you are going to give Bron and Pod a Disney ending, at least a damn confirmation of where Jon is going or whether he meets his family would be nice. 

I hope in 20 years GRRM sheds more light on this in the books. Although knowing him, it’s likely going to be a permanent exile meaning a bitter ending so in some ways better the book is not released and my head canon lives on lol. 

Edited by Kaapstad

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No. He went to the Wall and beyond because he wants to. 

 

He was sentenced to the Wall because of Dany's army. 

They're gone. There's no reason why he can't just stay in the North unbothered and Sansa can claim she has jurisdiction over those lands since Bran let her be independent.

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8 hours ago, Ruki88 said:

Hence why I said his family and friends betrayed him and used him as a skapegoat to get their hands on the 7k. If you think about it, at that moment Jon was the rightful heir of 7k, Khal to the dothraki and kind of the king beyond the wall. Like, WTF?

Jon was never going to be king, not after what Dany did to Kings Landing. Nobody wanted another Targaryen on the throne, even a stable one like Jon - who knows when that good old Targ madness would rear its ugly head? The council that decided on Bran made the right choice in order to placate the Unsullied and get rid of them. Killing Grey Worm wouldn't make his soldiers pack up meekly and sail away - there would only be more horror and bloodshed in retaliation, and Westeros had had enough.

I loved Jon's ending - he's back with Ghost, he's with the free folk and the first blades of spring are pushing up through the snow. I get the feeling that now there are no more White Walkers, it's not going to be so cold and grim beyond the wall. To me, Jon's ending was full of hope.

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6 hours ago, Kaapstad said:

Well its not like he has anything better to do staying in an empty castle. They are his best friends. So obviously he goes with them to help them get settled. But it could be temporary or permanent, that’s the thing the show doesn’t outright confirm. If it was permanent why wasn’t there more powerful symbolism like him throwing off the Nights Watch cape as he rides or? Why are his sisters so tearful if he truly is going to enjoy a life with the wildlings in the far north?

Well by that logic, the entire blame squarely falls only on Bran. Had he told everyone of euron’s Fleet, Rhaegal wouldn’t have died. Missandei wouldn’t die and Dany doesn’t go mad and all is well. 

I think they know he is as good as pardoned the moment the Unsullied leave which is why they don’t opt for violence. The north is now an independent kingdom. No one is going to stop him from moving into Winterfell and likely Jon doesn’t want to go south anyway. I feel the showrunners didn’t know what to do with Jon which is why they kept it kinda open ended. 

If Jon is pardoned, what would he do? Stay in Winterfell and become King of the North. Then what to do with Sansa?

If Jon is going to be permanently exiled to the far North what does he do there? Become a lumber jack. Let’s not pretend the far North is a good place to live, the wildlings were forever trying to break into castle black to get away in the first place. 

 

Although I do lean more towards that smile being more indicative that he is done with Westeros, it would have been good if they had given us a real epilogue. Not leave the saviour with a grim ending. He didn’t really act in the reunion with Sansa and Arya that he felt betrayed, it was extremely emotional. If you are going to give Bron and Pod a Disney ending, at least a damn confirmation of where Jon is going or whether he meets his family would be nice. 

I hope in 20 years GRRM sheds more light on this in the books. Although knowing him, it’s likely going to be a permanent exile meaning a bitter ending so in some ways better the book is not released and my head canon lives on 

I still think he didn't stay at Castle Black. There are too many things that don't make sense. The NW as an institution is defunct since the wildlings aren't enemies anymore and the NK is dead. When Jon appears at CB it is full with wildlings. In ep 5 when he says goodbye to Tormund he told him he wished he could go with him. He gives Ghost to Tormund to live free beyond the Wall. As per D&D thinking the wildlings wanted to go south of the Wall because of the NK and now that he is dead they go back home. Hell, even in s7 Tormund tells Jon he spent too much time with the wildlings since he doesn't want to kneel anymore (when they talk about Dany) etc.

Bran could've told him point blank about this but haven't we learned until now that that guy is useless and never says anything? His sisters may well believe he will go to the Wall and stay there, just like Jon does. But I doubt Tormund will leave him there. And really, why should Jon accompany the wildlings to settle? It's their land, they don't need Jon helping them.

They made too many connections between Jon and the wildlings in my opinion. Also, like I said, if they wanted to make audience sure that Jon will stay at the Wall forever than it could've been done easily. Make Jon escort Tormund at the gate, make them embrace and then let the last scene be Jon watching the wildlings leave and the gate slowly closing in his face. Instead we have Jon leaving with Tormund, he looks back at the gate closing and then he turns his back to the Wall and dissapears in the forrest. That bit with him dissapearing suggests to me he won't ever be seen south of the Wall ever. 

I do believe Jon has a better ending in the show than he will have in the books. It'll be much worse in the books which sucks...

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lady of Mercia said:

Jon was never going to be king, not after what Dany did to Kings Landing. Nobody wanted another Targaryen on the throne, even a stable one like Jon - who knows when that good old Targ madness would rear its ugly head? The council that decided on Bran made the right choice in order to placate the Unsullied and get rid of them. Killing Grey Worm wouldn't make his soldiers pack up meekly and sail away - there would only be more horror and bloodshed in retaliation, and Westeros had had enough.

I loved Jon's ending - he's back with Ghost, he's with the free folk and the first blades of spring are pushing up through the snow. I get the feeling that now there are no more White Walkers, it's not going to be so cold and grim beyond the wall. To me, Jon's ending was full of hope.

I agree that he got the best ending considering, that's not me pouting he didn't get the throne. I never wanted him in the south - it was never what he wanted. The excuse with the Unsullied doesn't stand for me since there were multiple alternatives to this problem:

- Arya kills Greyworm, takes his face and leads the Unsullied away.

- Bran wargs Greyworm and leads the Unsullied away.

- trial by combat was a thing in this show.

- lie to Greyworm about sending Jon to the NW and once gone taking Jon in the North and protect him like Ned did it before.

- again, lie to Greyworm and once gone, Arya can leave together with Jon. He said in s6 that he wanted to leave south to feel warm after he was resurected.

I mean Greyworm wanted Tyrion punished as well and yet he ended up Hand of the King, really?

Don't get me wrong, I do think that if they succeded in getting him free he would've still refused the crown in the south and in the north and would've left beyond the Wall with the wildlings. This is not about where Jon ended up it is about choice. He never had a choice when he was younger and he didn't have a choice here as well. I expected more from the Starks but for me it just looks like they grabbed the first opportunity there without making an effort and help Jon. It just feels like Jon's devotion to his family is misplaced at the end.

Edited by Ruki88

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Ruki88 said:

I still think he didn't stay at Castle Black. There are too many things that don't make sense. The NW as an institution is defunct since the wildlings aren't enemies anymore and the NK is dead. When Jon appears at CB it is full with wildlings. In ep 5 when he says goodbye to Tormund he told him he wished he could go with him. He gives Ghost to Tormund to live free beyond the Wall. As per D&D thinking the wildlings wanted to go south of the Wall because of the NK and now that he is dead they go back home. Hell, even in s7 Tormund tells Jon he spent too much time with the wildlings since he doesn't want to kneel anymore (when they talk about Dany) etc.

Bran could've told him point blank about this but haven't we learned until now that that guy is useless and never says anything? His sisters may well believe he will go to the Wall and stay there, just like Jon does. But I doubt Tormund will leave him there. And really, why should Jon accompany the wildlings to settle? It's their land, they don't need Jon helping them.

They made too many connections between Jon and the wildlings in my opinion. Also, like I said, if they wanted to make audience sure that Jon will stay at the Wall forever than it could've been done easily. Make Jon escort Tormund at the gate, make them embrace and then let the last scene be Jon watching the wildlings leave and the gate slowly closing in his face. Instead we have Jon leaving with Tormund, he looks back at the gate closing and then he turns his back to the Wall and dissapears in the forrest. That bit with him dissapearing suggests to me he won't ever be seen south of the Wall ever. 

I do believe Jon has a better ending in the show than he will have in the books. It'll be much worse in the books which sucks...

But then if they wanted to commit to an ending where he stays forever with the wildlings, why have him wear the Lord Commander uniform? He would have worn Wildling uniforms like the others. He has worn Wildling clothes when he was with them for a brief period. A king beyond the wall with a NW Lord commander uniform doesn’t make sense. They wouldn’t make a mistake like that. The costume designer for Season 8 has said the costumes do show hidden meanings about the characters. 

Its possible the Nights Watch now has a new purpose. Help them establish a kingdom beyond the wall and act like intermediaries between them and the North. The reason he gave that look is because he is going to stay with them for a long period but they don’t confirm if it’s permanent or if he returns after a long time. They are friends and he has nothing to do in the castle so might as well go with them. They could have given him wildlings gear if they wanted to confirm it. Jon doesn’t strike me as the type of person who would misuse the NW uniform to stay among the wildlings.

If they show him watching the wildlings leave, they commit to an ending for him staying at the wall. If they show him leave with wildlings clothes or have a dialogue with Tormund about him joining them permanently, that also commits an ending. They purposely left it ambiguous and confusing. I mean the symbolism does make it seem permanent but it could still be interpreted in another way. He could be returning after 5 years and he would still, make that face.

I think the books would end with him staying at the Nights Watch permanently with a commitment as that does sound like Martin to me. Him going out with the wildlings sounds like something the show took liberties with so his fan base would not be pissed. But they didn’t change it too much which is why he still wears the NW uniform. 

Edited by Kaapstad

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41 minutes ago, Ruki88 said:

I agree that he got the best ending considering, that's not me pouting he didn't get the throne. I never wanted him in the south - it was never what he wanted. The excuse with the Unsullied doesn't stand for me since there were multiple alternatives to this problem:

- Arya kills Greyworm, takes his face and leads the Unsullied away.

- Bran wargs Greyworm and leads the Unsullied away.

- trial by combat was a thing in this show.

- lie to Greyworm about sending Jon to the NW and once gone taking Jon in the North and protect him like Ned did it before.

- again, lie to Greyworm and once gone, Arya can leave together with Jon. He said in s6 that he wanted to leave south to feel warm after he was resurected.

I mean Greyworm wanted Tyrion punished as well and yet he ended up Hand of the King, really?

Don't get me wrong, I do think that if they succeded in getting him free he would've still refused the crown in the south and in the north and would've left beyond the Wall with the wildlings. This is not about where Jon ended up it is about choice. He never had a choice when he was younger and he didn't have a choice here as well. I expected more from the Starks but for me it just looks like they grabbed the first opportunity there without making an effort and help Jon. It just feels like Jon's devotion to his family is misplaced at the end.

Tommen already discontinued Trial by Combat. So he can’t resort to that  

That’s partly because the Starks are honourable people. They wouldn’t backstab someone. The Unsullied were loyal to their queen and they respect that. When Jon kills their leader, it’s natural they want punishment. They would not resort to what you posted as it doesn’t strike me as a sort of thing the Starks would do. I also don’t think Jon would appreciate being freed in this manner. 

I agree, he should have been given a choice. I think he should have been pardoned and stay in the North as it’s king. When he tells Dany "I am a king and I don’t need your permission" or when he tells Sansa "The North is yours until ai come back", there is a hint of pride in his voice. He did like it. Him finding a girl and just like Eddard and Catelyn Stark, ruling the North in Winterfell away from the plots and murders just like Eddard but without being banished to the middle of nowhere with a small community of a 100 plus free folk( that’s all that’s left of the free folk?)  was the best ending. 

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Posted (edited)

I really wouldn’t put much stock into why Sansa and Arya didn’t reveal his identity and get him freed. THe moment Yara knows his identity she would accept his freedom. Instead of a betrayal, I think the show writers are just plain incompetent and don’t read the books or just don’t care enough to be consistent. I mean they wrote the Unsullied were sailing to Naath but this means they are going to die as in the books, outsiders who land on Naath catch a disease which kills them in a very brutal manner. Jon just has to wait 3 days till the Unsullied land on Naath and he can return home without any worry as with their death, the agreement stands to be void anyway. 

Edited by Kaapstad

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11 hours ago, Kaapstad said:

Tommen already discontinued Trial by Combat. So he can’t resort to that  

That’s partly because the Starks are honourable people. They wouldn’t backstab someone. The Unsullied were loyal to their queen and they respect that. When Jon kills their leader, it’s natural they want punishment. They would not resort to what you posted as it doesn’t strike me as a sort of thing the Starks would do. I also don’t think Jon would appreciate being freed in this manner. 

I agree, he should have been given a choice. I think he should have been pardoned and stay in the North as it’s king. When he tells Dany "I am a king and I don’t need your permission" or when he tells Sansa "The North is yours until ai come back", there is a hint of pride in his voice. He did like it. Him finding a girl and just like Eddard and Catelyn Stark, ruling the North in Winterfell away from the plots and murders just like Eddard but without being banished to the middle of nowhere with a small community of a 100 plus free folk( that’s all that’s left of the free folk?)  was the best ending. 

....who cares about Tommen and what he might've said? Seriously, in that situation would ppl even remember him or care about his edicts? It's ridiculous.

The Starks WERE honorable. Don't confuse Sansa, Arya or Bran with Ned. These guys have done pretty nasty things but I think ppl still feel they're some paragon of virtue. Why should they care what some foreign ppl want? We had the Starks numerous times telling on screen how anyone who is not northern is an outsider, even after they fought together at Winterfell. Also, caring more about what a foreiger wants instead of caring about their own blood? Yeah, doesn't that show how far they've fallen as Starks? After all, Ned was honorable but even his honor (or his best friend) was not greater when it came to his family. 

It would've made my heart sing for Jon to receive what he always wanted: family. But the family he put his whole trust in didn't bother putting the bare minimum of fight for him. Of course Jon will have no ill will towards them. He's Jon.

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13 hours ago, Lady of Mercia said:

Jon was never going to be king, not after what Dany did to Kings Landing. Nobody wanted another Targaryen on the throne, even a stable one like Jon - who knows when that good old Targ madness would rear its ugly head? The council that decided on Bran made the right choice in order to placate the Unsullied and get rid of them. Killing Grey Worm wouldn't make his soldiers pack up meekly and sail away - there would only be more horror and bloodshed in retaliation, and Westeros had had enough.

 

I've already written multiple solutions on how the Undullied could've been neutralised.

Also, who exactly are the ppl who would hate Jon for being a Targaryen. Who is in the council? His family, his family's allies, his friends. The only one there that might have something against Jon is Dorne but that's about it. Even Yara would've sided with the Starks on behalf of her brother. 

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1 hour ago, Ruki88 said:

....who cares about Tommen and what he might've said? Seriously, in that situation would ppl even remember him or care about his edicts? It's ridiculous.

The Starks WERE honorable. Don't confuse Sansa, Arya or Bran with Ned. These guys have done pretty nasty things but I think ppl still feel they're some paragon of virtue. Why should they care what some foreign ppl want? We had the Starks numerous times telling on screen how anyone who is not northern is an outsider, even after they fought together at Winterfell. Also, caring more about what a foreiger wants instead of caring about their own blood? Yeah, doesn't that show how far they've fallen as Starks? After all, Ned was honorable but even his honor (or his best friend) was not greater when it came to his family. 

It would've made my heart sing for Jon to receive what he always wanted: family. But the family he put his whole trust in didn't bother putting the bare minimum of fight for him. Of course Jon will have no ill will towards them. He's Jon.

He was King when he discontinued it. It has become a law. That's why Cersei blew up the Sept. She was going to use Trial by Combat to get herself freed but the High Sparrow blocked that loophole.

The Starks have only acted dishonourable when something bad was done to them by their enemies. Robb beheaded, Ned beheaded, Catelyn killed, Ramsay torturing Sansa. Its at those points they say screw it. In this case, the Unsullied have just taken Jon prisoner and are demanding a fair punishment for what he did. Ned was told his daughters could be harassed or killed if he didn't confess. That's why he did it. And there was no alternative to it whereas in Jon's case there was a way to do it and everyone knows that its as good as a pardon as he is going into an Independent kingdom where Bran's order won't have validity. But Grey Worm is a dumb soldier so he doesn't know that.

By the way, you do realise if Jon was okay with the methods you just mentioned, it wouldn't be below him to just not tell anyone he killed Dany. The courtyard was empty, there was no one who saw him killing her. He could just tip toe out of there. Heck, he even has a defense, why would the dragon let me kill her when he was just outside the door? He went straight to the Unsullied and confessed that he killed her. If Sansa were there, she would have told him to keep his mouth shut but he acts like a honourable fool anyway. 

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3 hours ago, Ruki88 said:

I've already written multiple solutions on how the Undullied could've been neutralised.

Also, who exactly are the ppl who would hate Jon for being a Targaryen. Who is in the council? His family, his family's allies, his friends. The only one there that might have something against Jon is Dorne but that's about it. Even Yara would've sided with the Starks on behalf of her brother. 

Possibly the whole of westeros after what Dany did to KL.

Don't get me wrong, I think the whole thing with Jon's exile is pretty incoherent. But a lot of people would be apprehensive about a targaryen on the throne.

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On 5/23/2019 at 3:40 PM, a girl knows nothing said:

I'm not convinced Jon left the Nights Watch to permanently stay with the free folk. My take on it is that he was escorting them to where they are settling now. If that is the case and he is staying at the Wall, then he can visit with whoever wants to make the journey up there. I doubt Bran, Tyrion, and Sam will be frequent visitors (if at all) since they are busy ruling in Kings Landing, but he could probably see Sansa. Benjen was permitted to go to Winterfell on occasion, so I'm sure Jon could do that as well. And if Arya were ever to come back from whatever is west of Westeros, she'd probably come visit him too.

The symbolism of the scene strongly suggested otherwise. Jon taking one last look back at the lands south of the wall, and the gate then being closed behind him. 

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