Scott Lynch's Thorn of Emberlain is Not Completed

[Werthead]

3 hours ago, Ran said:

Didn't you give this 4 stars when you reviewed it? Heh. But yes, it has a more deliberate pacing.

Nope, two and a half.

[Jussi]

I would give it five stars. Assassin's Quest is the best book in the trilogy.

 

16 hours ago, Ran said:

I'd think Robin Hobb's Farseer books may be the most obvious "If you like ASoIaF, try this."

True. All ASoIaF fans I know in "real life" are also fans of Robin Hobb.

Hobb is a big name here in Finland. Assassin's Fate was released in Finnish in last autumn, and it hit our bestseller list. The Wheel of Time was dropped by Finnish publisher after Knife of Dreams due to declining sales. The same publisher decided not to translate The Last King of Osten Ard because Finnish readers had lost interest in Tad Williams. Brandon Sanderson's original Mistborn Trilogy was released in Finnish, but nothing more from the author. The Lies of Locke Lamora bombed in Finland in 2007, and we didn't got Red Seas Under Red Skies.

Edited June 1, 2020 by Jussi

[polishgenius]

3 hours ago, Ran said:

Stylistically the main difference is Farseer is first person  rather than 3rd person limited, and as far as I recall sticks exclusively to Fitz's point of view entirely up until the later trilogies. Tonally and thematically, though, I think there's a great deal of similarity, and I think Hobb and GRRM have more similarities than differences in their prose styles.

I feel like there's similarities in that both are lower-key-magic (at least to an extent) series focusing more on politics and character development, but the manner in which they go about it is vastly different. I'm with Wert- if I was recommending more fantasy to a post-asoiaf newcomer to the genre I probably wouldn't send them to Hobb unless they had some specific tastes I knew about. I'd rec Abraham or Abercrombie first. 

But other people clearly have other experiences so who the fuck knows.

[Argonath Diver]

I adore FitzChivalry and Hobb for making me openly cry reading a book as no author has. 

I mentioned recommending TLoLL to dozens of random people not necessarily because of its correlation to ASoIaF in terms of the vastness of scope or themes, but because it's an absolute delight to read for the first time. In those easy years where it was cool to enjoy a show with dragons, tits,  and corny RP English chatter, lots of my customers proclaimed, "I love the books too!".  I hold fast in my little opinion that TLoLL is a rip-roarin' good time that many people who otherwise would have been uninterested in the Fantasy aisle can enjoy. I like other series more, sure, but I'd like to think a couple of the random Times Square tourists who briefly met a nerdy bartender later got to know Locke and Jean and the twins, and perhaps kept the cocktail napkin with names like Abraham and Abercrombie for later.

Edited June 1, 2020 by Argonath Diver

[Vaughn]

On 5/30/2020 at 10:57 PM, Darth Richard II said:

Why do people always assume GRRM won't finish the book?

Actuarial science

[Gaston de Foix]

25 minutes ago, Argonath Diver said:

I adore FitzChivalry and Hobb for making me openly cry reading a book as no author has. 

You certainly feel strong emotion.  But even though GRRM does terrible things to his characters his pathos feels less personal somehow.  Whereas FitzChivalry is perhaps the most emotionally damaged character in fantasy and you experience it all from his perspective.  

[Poobah]

53 minutes ago, Gaston de Foix said:

You certainly feel strong emotion.  But even though GRRM does terrible things to his characters his pathos feels less personal somehow.  Whereas FitzChivalry is perhaps the most emotionally damaged character in fantasy and you experience it all from his perspective.  

Urgh yeah. I think Farseer is very well written, and maybe this is just how it interacted with my depression but I've never been so filled with loathing for a protagonist, I found the entire thing utterly bleak and soul-crushing and I doubt if I'll ever read them again. It's like the opposite of Gentleman Bastard - Fitz is a character who could have plenty of power and agency if he chose to exercise it but refuses again and again and drives his own suffering, misery, loneliness, and denial of happiness, whereas Locke and Jean are characters constantly buffeted by the winds of fate, placed in situations where they have no choices, forced in to things and yet they thrive against adversity, succeed where failure was the only option, fight back, hold on to their friendship, and find light and levity amidst the shit they're constantly thrown into.

Edited June 1, 2020 by Poobah

[Ran]

2 hours ago, Werthead said:

Nope, two and a half.

I was actually thinking of your Assassin's Apprentice and Royal Assassin reviews, which were 4 stars.

1 hour ago, Jussi said:

I would give it five stars. Assassin's Quest is the best book in the trilogy.

Agreed, for my part, but de gustibus...

1 hour ago, Jussi said:

obb is a big name here in Finland. Assassin's Fate was released in Finnish in last autumn, and it hit our bestseller list. The Wheel of Time was dropped by Finnish publisher after Knife of Dreams due to declining sales. The same publisher decided not to translate The Last King of Osten Ard because Finnish readers had lost interest in Tad Williams. Brandon Sanderson's original Mistborn Trilogy was released in Finnish, but nothing more from the author. The Lies of Locke Lamora bombed in Finland in 2007, and we didn't got Red Seas Under Red Skies.

That's very interesting. I had no idea so many that are considered pretty big names here have no traction in Finland. How is Abercrombie doing over there? I can see Kijarva published a translation of The Blade Itself, but can't see if they've published any others.

1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

I'd rec Abraham or Abercrombie first. 

Whereas I'd name Abercrombie only if the dark side of ASoIaF was something I knew they appreciated, because.. well, it's definitely grimdark fantasy.

Abraham's a good call, though, and I think would fit in with Hobb in terms of people I'd recommend to someone looking for mature fantasy without any other qualification/knowledge of their specific interests.

 

1 hour ago, Argonath Diver said:

I adore FitzChivalry and Hobb for making me openly cry reading a book as no author has. 

I mentioned recommending TLoLL to dozens of random people not necessarily because of its correlation to ASoIaF in terms of the vastness of scope or themes, but because it's an absolute delight to read for the first time.

That I agree with whole-heartedly. I didn't much enjoy the 2nd novel and I haven't gotten to the 3rd due to this, but the first book was crackling with energy and fun. "Absolute delight" is a good description of how I felt.

 

[john]

I think Farseer and ASOIAF are similar in their imagined historicality. How to shoe a horse, how to raise a pup, how to oil a weapon. Right down to the nitty gritty of eating, bathing, cleaning your teeth with sand or whatever. KJ Parker is good at this too and recently John Gwynne is doing the history turned fantasy thing. GRRM goes further with the swearing, bleeding, shitting, fucking, for which you’d have to look to Abercrombie, although I don’t think he’s as intense as Martin.

Also character work, there’s a similar depth even to peripheral characters and there’s frankly nobody in the genre as good as Martin and Hobb at that, although I do think Hobb has the edge there. 
edit- actually Martin is better at minor characters, Hobb is better at the major characters but she is painting a less broad tapestry.

Lynch I’d say is more heightened reality, more cartoonish (in a good sense). I’d compare Rothfuss to him. I also recently read Kingdom of Liars by Nick Martel, which I found very similar  in tone to Lies of Locke Lamora, but, unsurprisingly, not quite as good.

Edited June 1, 2020 by john

[Jaxom 1974]

If people haven't listened to The Gentleman Bastards on audio, well get on it. I truly think my level of appreciation jumped even higher after a good listen. 

[Clueless Northman]

Lies of Locke Lamora is one of the very rare cases where I actually laughed out loud reading a book - which was startling people since I was in a train. Happened in the early chapter, when Locke arrives to rob an inn and fakes being hit by the plague, so the whole place is evacuated, then looted, then burned down by local security forces.

[Gaston de Foix]

2 hours ago, john said:

I think Farseer and ASOIAF are similar in their imagined historicality. How to shoe a horse, how to raise a pup, how to oil a weapon. Right down to the nitty gritty of eating, bathing, cleaning your teeth with sand or whatever. KJ Parker is good at this too and recently John Gwynne is doing the history turned fantasy thing. GRRM goes further with the swearing, bleeding, shitting, fucking, for which you’d have to look to Abercrombie, although I don’t think he’s as intense as Martin.

Also character work, there’s a similar depth even to peripheral characters and there’s frankly nobody in the genre as good as Martin and Hobb at that, although I do think Hobb has the edge there. 
edit- actually Martin is better at minor characters, Hobb is better at the major characters but she is painting a less broad tapestry.

Lynch I’d say is more heightened reality, more cartoonish (in a good sense). I’d compare Rothfuss to him. I also recently read Kingdom of Liars by Nick Martel, which I found very similar  in tone to Lies of Locke Lamora, but, unsurprisingly, not quite as good.

I would recommend Amongst Thieves by Douglas Hulick for fans of the Lies of Locke Lamora.  Hulick has stopped writing after Book 2, so there's that....

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 hours ago, Clueless Northman said:

Lies of Locke Lamora is one of the very rare cases where I actually laughed out loud reading a book - which was startling people since I was in a train. Happened in the early chapter, when Locke arrives to rob an inn and fakes being hit by the plague, so the whole place is evacuated, then looted, then burned down by local security forces.

The boy who steals too much.  

[Vaughn]

15 hours ago, john said:

I think Farseer and ASOIAF are similar in their imagined historicality. How to shoe a horse, how to raise a pup, how to oil a weapon. Right down to the nitty gritty of eating, bathing, cleaning your teeth with sand or whatever. KJ Parker is good at this too and recently John Gwynne is doing the history turned fantasy thing. GRRM goes further with the swearing, bleeding, shitting, fucking, for which you’d have to look to Abercrombie, although I don’t think he’s as intense as Martin.

Also character work, there’s a similar depth even to peripheral characters and there’s frankly nobody in the genre as good as Martin and Hobb at that, although I do think Hobb has the edge there. 
edit- actually Martin is better at minor characters, Hobb is better at the major characters but she is painting a less broad tapestry.

Lynch I’d say is more heightened reality, more cartoonish (in a good sense). I’d compare Rothfuss to him. I also recently read Kingdom of Liars by Nick Martel, which I found very similar  in tone to Lies of Locke Lamora, but, unsurprisingly, not quite as good.

Lynch's story is at the core about true friendship and loyalty. There aren't any real friendships in GoT, just webs of obligation and at best, people doing what they think they should be doing.

[bms295]

10 minutes ago, Vaughn said:

Lynch's story is at the core about true friendship and loyalty. There aren't any real friendships in GoT, just webs of obligation and at best, people doing what they think they should be doing.

What about Jon and Sam?

[Vaughn]

26 minutes ago, bms295 said:

What about Jon and Sam?

That's a fair point. I still think that the Jean/Locke friendship is a kernel of optimism at the heart of what can be a fairly grim story (Ezri, Gray King, etc...) where in GoT, friendships are at best a side element of a story that is basically a celebration of torture and the failure of good people to improve the world. The moments of joy and melancholy in Lynch's books feel earned in a way that is absent from Martin's books.  

[Gaston de Foix]

54 minutes ago, Vaughn said:

That's a fair point. I still think that the Jean/Locke friendship is a kernel of optimism at the heart of what can be a fairly grim story (Ezri, Gray King, etc...) where in GoT, friendships are at best a side element of a story that is basically a celebration of torture and the failure of good people to improve the world. The moments of joy and melancholy in Lynch's books feel earned in a way that is absent from Martin's books.  

I disagree profoundly.  The moments of joy in GRRM's books (and admittedly there haven't been many recently) feel earned.  Can you really read this passage and not be stirred with the longing for home? 

Needle was Robb and Bran and Rickon, her mother and her father, even Sansa. Needle was Winterfell's grey walls, and the laughter of its people. Needle was the summer snows, Old Nan's stories, the heart tree with its red leaves and scary face, the warm earthy smell of the glass gardens, the sound of the north wind rattling the shutters of her room. Needle was Jon Snow's smile. He used to mess my hair and call me "little sister," she remembered, and suddenly there were tears in her eyes. 

As for the failure of good people to improve the world, the jury is still out on that one in ASOIAFverse.  And if you read Martin's "fake history" you will see that a number of characters: Aegon, Rhaenys, Jaeherys, Alysanne, Aegon V, Bryndyn Rivers do improve the world.  Martin captures the messiness of history in a way few others do (and to be fair to Scott, that's not the story he's telling). 

[Werthead]

1 hour ago, bms295 said:

What about Jon and Sam?

And Robert and Ned, and Jon and Sam and Pyp and Grenn, Arya and Hot Pie, Brienne and Cat and a lot more beyond that.

The absence of real friendships is noted as a key weakness by characters, Sansa in King's Landing when she realises she has no-one to trust, and Jaime when he realises he has no-one to talk to or to trust with helping him in sword training (Addam Marbrand is the closest, and that's a very vague and notional friendship at best; beyond that is his relationship with Brienne). 

[Vaughn]

The scale of the books is different but c'mon, Pyp and Grenn? Hot Pie? These are side characters, not the protagonists. Brienne isn't friends with Cat - she's the help.

Friendship and loyalty are bedrock elements of the Lynch stories. GoT is far more about how basically no-one has friends or loyalty. 

 

[polishgenius]

I'm sorta with Vaughn tbh. Yes, GRRM writes friendships, but for me only really Jon and Sam struck home. It was one thing I thought the early parts of the show improved on.

 

But I think my main problem with aSoIaF in terms of emotion is that by the last few books it felt like he was including shocking moments just to shock. Ned was stunning, Red Wedding made me put the book down for a bit, but after that most of the big shock moments felt a bit hollow.