Scott Lynch's Thorn of Emberlain is Not Completed

[Gaston de Foix]

45 minutes ago, A wilding said:

We may have been lucky with ASoIaF being finished as a TV show after all?

Yes, but not for the obvious reason.  I think the storytelling flaws in the show will inform George's decision and make the books stronger than they would have been in the counterfactual world where the show was never made.  And this is the first time, I think, that a claim like that could be made about the improvement going from adaptation to source material rather than the other way around. 

[A wilding]

I fear I cannot share in your confidence that GRRM will ever finish the books, sadly.

[Rhom]

9 hours ago, A wilding said:

I fear I cannot share in your confidence that GRRM will ever finish the books, sadly.

I agree.  I will be surprised if he finishes TWoW, much less what I assume will need to be at least two more books no matter what he says.

[Darth Richard II]

Why do people always assume GRRM won't finish the book?

[Argonath Diver]

I dont assume, but I expect another 2 years for the next one and am very skeptical that he will vastly accelerate his efficiency for ADoS. I'm fine with that. 

As per Lynch, I do hope he can overcome the challenges he has with the series. Although I am with some other fans in that I preferred the group dynamic vs the duo, or Sabetha's baffling relationship drama. Very much hoping the fourth gets my engine revving the way I want. TLOLL might be my single most-recommended book. It's a perfect gateway drug to grimdark stuff.

[Darth Richard II]

TLOLL is grim dark now?

[IlyaP]

1 hour ago, Darth Richard II said:

TLOLL is grim dark now?

If it's both grim and funny, does that make it a grimlark?

[Darth Richard II]

I dunno it’s been a long time since I read it but I would never have labeled it grimdark.

[Starkess]

12 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

Why do people always assume GRRM won't finish the book?

Well for one thing, if you fit a simple model to the wait times of the books, assuming an impossibly best case scenario of Book 6 in June 2020, that puts Book 7 in Oct 2032.

I just don't see it happening.

[Gaston de Foix]

43 minutes ago, Starkess said:

Well for one thing, if you fit a simple model to the wait times of the books, assuming an impossibly best case scenario of Book 6 in June 2020.

Did I miss something? We are already in June 2020. That is not an improbable best case scenario, that's cloud cuckooland.  Anyway, I do think Thorn of Emberlain will come sooner than WoW and DoS (see Mods, no thread derail) because the book is theoretically finished.   

[Argonath Diver]

14 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

I dunno it’s been a long time since I read it but I would never have labeled it grimdark.

Fair enough. I'm not much for proper labeling. I suppose I meant that I recommend it as a modern fantasy novel to many random people (generally while bartending) who say they have only read Martin, but might balk if they attempted The Black Company stuff or the slog of slogs. The end of the novel feels pretty grim to me, regardless.

[Ran]

I wouldn't think of the Locke Lamora books as the first thing to recommend to ASoIaF fans, just because I think they're not very similar in style or tone. I'd think Robin Hobb's Farseer books may be the most obvious "If you like ASoIaF, try this." But it depends a bit on what one likes about ASoIaF, since it has so many different aspects that appeal differently to different people.

 

[Gaston de Foix]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

I'd think Robin Hobb's Farseer books may be the most obvious "If you like ASoIaF, try this." 

I have recommended the Lies of Locke Lamore to someone who is down/sad.  Whereas I think you need to have a certain amount of joy in your life to counterbalance reading Robin Hobb.  

[Werthead]

2 hours ago, Ran said:

I wouldn't think of the Locke Lamora books as the first thing to recommend to ASoIaF fans, just because I think they're not very similar in style or tone. I'd think Robin Hobb's Farseer books may be the most obvious "If you like ASoIaF, try this." But it depends a bit on what one likes about ASoIaF, since it has so many different aspects that appeal differently to different people.

I think if someone said their favourite thing in ASoIaF was Tyrion and that element of cynical humour in the series, then LoLL would be a very easy rec on that level.

Farseer is an odd one because in the sense of melancholy it is similar to ASoIaF, and obviously the warging thing, but otherwise I don't think it has much in common at all. In particular, the murderously slow pace of Farseer and most of the entire saga means I'd never recommend it to anyone who expressed issues with the pacing of AFFC and ADWD.

The absolute closest series on I think almost every level to ASoIaF is Tad Williams' Memory, Sorrow and Thorn. Otherwise it's more of a hodgepodge approach: for people who love the Wall, the wildlings and Jon Snow's whole, I'd recommend JV Jones' Sword of Shadows series; for the warfare, military tactics and large-scale conflict, Paul Kearney's Monarchies of God; for the characterisation and medieval history-turned-fantasy thing, Guy Gavriel Kay; for the worldbuilding, Wheel of Time etc.

[HexMachina]

I adore Robin Hobb but she isn’t the first name I would think of when recommending something for fans of ASoIaF. Though I agree with Ran and Wert, it really depends what part of ASoIaF people enjoy.

Though I would disagree with Wert that LoLL is for those who enjoy Tyrion and the cynical humour. I would say the two series probably link best for those who enjoy the Arya chapters a lot. There are sort of similarities between the Gentleman Bastards and Arya’s various associates, be it the BwB, the Hound, or the FM. And then the Braavos chapters have a similar kind of setting to Cammor, and the FM training shares some elements with the Gentleman Bastard’s heists.

But its mot important, its a very inexact measure to recommend one series based on another.

 

On a separate note, if I never read the word grimdark again it will be too soon

[IlyaP]

4 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

On a separate note, if I never read the word grimdark again it will be too soon

When did this term even take off? I'm still playing catch-up to all the books I missed out on while in the university system for a decade, so I'm dearly curious what prompted this. (Abercrombie, for example, is meant to be, uh, "grimdark", but nothing about The Blade Itself - which I've nearly finished as of last night - strikes me as particularly "dark" or "grim".)

[Darth Richard II]

It started as a joke based on a war hammer 40k saying then took off. I couldn’t tell you what it actually means, there’s debate and my ambien is kicking in. There is a grimdark magazine though. I think a few of the people there post here?

[IlyaP]

2 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

It started as a joke based on a war hammer 40k saying then took off. I couldn’t tell you what it actually means, there’s debate and my ambien is kicking in. There is a grimdark magazine though. I think a few of the people there post here?

Oy vey. 

https://www.grimdarkmagazine.com/

"Get kneedeep in grit."

Uh, wait, so, we're...gardening?

[mcbigski]

On 5/28/2020 at 9:29 PM, HelenaExMachina said:

For me it is still Lies>RSURS>RoT, mostly because I just love the moments where we see all of the Gentleman Bastards interacting. Probably why the flashbacks of RoT are my favourite parts of that book. 

However, i found all of the books more enjoyable on a re-read, and I think they are all very good. I’m not sure how i felt about the ending of RoT and the direction the story might take as a result, but I have faith that Scott will be able to pull it off. And even if I don’t like the story direction, I’m sure it will be a hell of an entertaining read anyway

I should probably reread, at least Lies for sure.  But reading through once, your ranking seems correct right now. Possibly looking back from book 4 there willion havon beon  (with apologies to Dr Dan Streetmentioner) reasons to like the subsequent book better.

On 5/30/2020 at 9:46 AM, Gaston de Foix said:

Yes, but not for the obvious reason.  I think the storytelling flaws in the show will inform George's decision and make the books stronger than they would have been in the counterfactual world where the show was never made.  And this is the first time, I think, that a claim like that could be made about the improvement going from adaptation to source material rather than the other way around. 

My uniformed opinion is that GRRM will look at the TV ending and think, I can do better. as well as I need to do better sooner, and best is a luxury.

12 hours ago, Starkess said:

Well for one thing, if you fit a simple model to the wait times of the books, assuming an impossibly best case scenario of Book 6 in June 2020, that puts Book 7 in Oct 2032.

I just don't see it happening.'m

I like to think that there are variables that will have more impact the later it goes.  I believe the final book will take less time than the penultimate book by a substantial margin, since the gnarliest intermediate plot points will have been nailed down.  Mayhaps I'm an optimist.

9 hours ago, Ran said:

I wouldn't think of the Locke Lamora books as the first thing to recommend to ASoIaF fans, just because I think they're not very similar in style or tone. I'd think Robin Hobb's Farseer books may be the most obvious "If you like ASoIaF, try this." But it depends a bit on what one likes about ASoIaF, since it has so many different aspects that appeal differently to different people.

 

I should check out Farseer.  Thanks for the rec. 

I would be comfortable recommending Lies to any Ice and Fire fan though.  To me they both pull you into the world and then not unfairly jerk you in another direction.

<Also Ran, if you could, since George is definitely not Patriots fan, ask him to take a shot a Patriots owner Robert Kraft who had legal issues at the Orchids of Asia spa in Florida, by shoehorning in an Orchids of Asshai reference in the last two books, even though we know nothing grows in Asshai>

[Ran]

8 hours ago, Werthead said:

I think if someone said their favourite thing in ASoIaF was Tyrion and that element of cynical humour in the series, then LoLL would be a very easy rec on that level.

Farseer is an odd one because in the sense of melancholy it is similar to ASoIaF, and obviously the warging thing, but otherwise I don't think it has much in common at all.

Really? The central character, outcast from a normal life due to  being a noble bastard but finds himself driven by duty toward an increasingly lonely life, a spy master with secrets pulling some of the strings of events, the horrors of war, the mysterious external threat that features a horrifying magic, the political conflict that distract from dealing with said threat driven by characters who have some superficial similarities to Renly and Stannis... Hobb and GRRM were operating on some very similar wavelengths. Stylistically the main difference is Farseer is first person  rather than 3rd person limited, and as far as I recall sticks exclusively to Fitz's point of view entirely up until the later trilogies. Tonally and thematically, though, I think there's a great deal of similarity, and I think Hobb and GRRM have more similarities than differences in their prose styles.

8 hours ago, Werthead said:

In particular, the murderously slow pace

Didn't you give this 4 stars when you reviewed it? Heh. But yes, it has a more deliberate pacing.

2 hours ago, mcbigski said:

<Also Ran, if you could, since George is definitely not Patriots fan, ask him to take a shot a Patriots owner Robert Kraft who had legal issues at the Orchids of Asia spa in Florida, by shoehorning in an Orchids of Asshai reference in the last two books, even though we know nothing grows in Asshai>

Knowing George, he might well be a step ahead of you there.