Nativity

[darmody]

Why in this show about houses and lineage and family are none of the main cast members interested in marrying or making babies? I have no idea whether the Targaryens, Starks, Lannisters, Baratheons, Arryns, Tarlys, Grejoys, Reeds, Umbers, and so forth will perpetuate. Martel, Tyrell, Bolton, Frey, and Mormont appear dead already. Edmure Tully's wife and son theoretically may be alive. 

Remember how happy Robb was to hear about Little Ned? Don't any of the other Starks (or half-Starks) possess the same sentiment? Arya could be pregnant, but I'm guessing she'll be dead soon. Anyway, she's not coming back. Sansa isn't approached by Random Dornish Prince or Gendry or anyone. No one wants to breed with the Queen of the North? Sansa isn't concerned about holding onto independent Winterfell? Is Jon going to find another Wildling girl? He foresook all titles and property and freedom to father heirs. Is he even a Targaryen? Does he care about that House's existence?

No one is interested in marrying Yara. Gendry is single. Sweetrobin I assume is single. Tyrion is single. Hand of the King is presented as some kind of punishment, but you know they didn't strip him of title and land. He is Lord of Casterly Rock. Shortly before the death of his brother and sister he showed interest in his niece or nephew, but nothing about children of his own. Has he even had sex since Shae?

Jaime abandoned a pregnant Cersei. Cersei showed no evidence of caring about her child's future this season, until two seconds before her death. Brienne is apparently not pregnant. Aside from Dany and Jon, for whom marriage wasn't a discussion before they even knew about their kinship FOR NO REASON, the other love story this season was Greyworm and his sundae. Who of course couldn't reproduce. 

Okay, Sam presumably had a kid. But he didn't marry Gilly and the kid must be a bastard, because now he's a Grand Maester. I guess that means his sister is Lady of Horn Hill. Is she going to marry? No idea. 

This is such a basic part of human existence, and it comes up plenty in previous seasons. Why was the show suddenly uninterested?

 

[SansaJonRule]

There were much bigger issues to deal with. As you said, reproduction is a basic part of human life, so I think it is safe to assume that as life returns to normal, they will all begin to make that a priority.

I believe Tyrion visited a brothel once while he and Varys were on their way to Meereen, but he told Jaime it had been years since he'd been with a woman.

[ummester]

It's possible that all of the noble linage characters who survived have a self interested edge, wish to live their lives entirely for themselves and do not care about reproduction.

Bran can't. I suspect Sansa is over the concept of marriage entirely. Arya does not seem interested at all. Brienne is not allowed to as a member of the Kings Guard. I don't think Yara is interested in settling down or mothering, she is presented as too much of a free spirit.

Jon might find a new kissed by fire mate north of the wall, I guess. Gendry was keen to marry Arya - his affections might find someone new eventually. Long live Houses Baratheon and Tarly?

There could be a meta point about societal devolution at play - which may play out in the books - but I doubt D&D thought about it that much.

[Deminelle]

Yara, I thought, was more interested in women.

Tyrion did suggest Jon and Dany marry. Tyrion is someone I can see fixing marriages, one for himself as well, in the future.

Does Gendry still wait for Arya? I don't think so. He'll marry soon.

[Gendry looks good in black]

Ew Gendry's in love with Arya why would he want to pork Sansa??? XD

[JagLover]

Sansa was certain to marry I thought as there should always be a Stark in Winterfell and she is it as far as continuing the line. She wont marry a fellow ruler though.

Jon seems pretty likely to build a normal life for himself in the North, would have liked it if at the end if a girl who looked like Ygritte caught his eye, just to make his ending a bit more satisfying.  

Arya's ending was a bit of a nonsense really, so she rediscovered she was a Stark, and then promptly p*ssed off. It wouldn't have been right for her to marry Gendry, but becoming a bannerwoman of her sister, to maybe then marry herself in the future, would have been more satisfying to me.  

[Deminelle]

Jon was sentenced to never have a wife or reproduce himself.

Sansa might settle for Gendry, she was already supposed to marry Baratheons.

[Kaapstad]

1 hour ago, Deminelle said:

Jon was sentenced to never have a wife or reproduce himself.

Sansa might settle for Gendry, she was already supposed to marry Baratheons.

Jon can still marry and have a kid if he has gone with the free folk. 

[darmody]

6 hours ago, ummester said:

 

There could be a meta point about societal devolution at play - which may play out in the books - but I doubt D&D thought about it that much.

They made this point explicitly, as I recall. Only because it's them it was in terms of dick.

Bronn says to Tyrion and Jaime that status is built upon piles of bodies accrued by cutthroats like him. Eventually their grandsons squander it by being "cocksuckers." Which I interpreted broadly (though of course cocksucking itself is not fruitful) to mean children given to immediate pleasure and no concern for the future. 

[darmody]

4 hours ago, Gendry looks good in black said:

Ew Gendry's in love with Arya why would he want to pork Sansa??? XD

So that his children might be royalty?

You must think like a feudal lord. 

[ummester]

21 minutes ago, darmody said:

They made this point explicitly, as I recall. Only because it's them it was in terms of dick.

Bronn says to Tyrion and Jaime that status is built upon piles of bodies accrued by cutthroats like him. Eventually their grandsons squander it by being "cocksuckers." Which I interpreted broadly (though of course cocksucking itself is not fruitful) to mean children given to immediate pleasure and no concern for the future. 

Good call - perhaps I have underestimated some of D&Ds dialogue. But yes, I do feel that general idea of looking less to the future was played upon as the story progressed.

At the start Robert, Ned, Tywin, Stannis - even Jamie and Cersie and Jon (by joining the Nights Watch) - were very worried about the future. But as they were killed, or their children were killed, motivations around abstract future ideals like legacy fell away. I guess it presents as a chicken/egg thing - does the next generation lose hope for the future when the world turns to shit or does failing to think about the future turn the world to shit?

I guess it shows also, that overall, the series biggest villain was Little Finger - because he generated the chaos that collapsed the standing social order at the start of the story.

[Nevis]

28 minutes ago, darmody said:

So that his children might be royalty?

You must think like a feudal lord. 

I doubt that Gendry thinks like a feudal lord.

[Apoplexy]

If there were to be a sequel (the horror!), most of them would likely marry someone for producing heirs, if nothing else. They had other pressing issues to deal with during the course of the show.

[Kaapstad]

50 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

If there were to be a sequel (the horror!), most of them would likely marry someone for producing heirs, if nothing else. They had other pressing issues to deal with during the course of the show.

Also depends on whether Sansa is capable of producing an heir. She tells Baelish, he brutalised the inside of her body and she never gets pregnant from Ramsay. 

[JagLover]

1 hour ago, Kaapstad said:

Also depends on whether Sansa is capable of producing an heir. She tells Baelish, he brutalised the inside of her body and she never gets pregnant from Ramsay. 

I think she also said that he had left unhurt her face and what she needed to produce a baby (from memory). But if there is the slightest doubt than that makes Arya's decision even more a betrayal of her family. 

[Kaapstad]

44 minutes ago, JagLover said:

I think she also said that he had left unhurt her face and what she needed to produce a baby (from memory). But if there is the slightest doubt than that makes Arya's decision even more a betrayal of her family. 

Yeah but Ramsay is a sadist and can’t control his brutality sometimes. Roose was greatly dismayed that he had castrated and mutilated Theon who was the last surviving son of Balon when they could have gotten the Iron Islands had they not mutilated him. Sansa’s words that she could still feel what Ramsay did inside her body imply imo that she can no longer reproduce because of the damage he did. If you read the books, if he did even 20% of what he did to Jeyne Pool to Sansa, there is no shadow of a doubt regarding this  

Roose had already ordered Ramsay to get an heir from Sansa as early as possible but she never got pregnant. It’s possible if Arya never marries, this is the end of House Stark. 

It’s possible Jon has a son with a FreeFolk woman and Sansa could name him as her heir to Winterfell. That sounds more likely than Arya marrying imo. 

[CrypticWeirwood]

On 5/23/2019 at 10:36 AM, darmody said:

Why in this show about houses and lineage and family are none of the main cast members interested in marrying or making babies?

The correct answer to your question couldn't be any simpler!

 It's because George Martin’s story is not really “about” named  houses and the continuity of those houses’ lineages and legacies.

The houses and lineages are nothing more than the visible background scaffolding he used when constructing his real story.

It’s a puzzle artfully constructed. You must look deeper, much deeper.

Quaerendo invenietis.

[JagLover]

7 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

The correct answer to your question couldn't be any simpler!

 It's because George Martin’s story is not really “about” named  houses and the continuity of those houses’ lineages and legacies.

The houses and lineages are nothing more than the visible background scaffolding he used when constructing his real story.

It’s a puzzle artfully constructed. You must look deeper, much deeper.

Quaerendo invenietis.

"There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" comes from GRRM. So some named houses are more important than others.  

[JagLover]

27 minutes ago, Kaapstad said:

That sounds more likely than Arya marrying imo. 

From where it was left in the show, true, but I think the question is more around why it ended that way?.

There was a whole thing about Arya rediscovering her identity and her loyalty to her house and she is now going to risk the line ending because she wants to be Dora the explorer?

She is a conventionally attractive straight woman/girl, in both show and book. Yes she has undergone some very traumatic experiences, but so do many men in times of war.  

[Kaapstad]

7 minutes ago, JagLover said:

From where it was left in the show, true, but I think the question is more around why it ended that way?.

There was a whole thing about Arya rediscovering her identity and her loyalty to her house and she is now going to risk the line ending because she wants to be Dora the explorer?

She is a conventionally attractive straight woman/girl, in both show and book. Yes she has undergone some very traumatic experiences, but so do many men in times of war.  

I personally thought it’s possible they sent her away to give Jon an even bitter ending. He asks her whether she would visit him. If she could, then he stays at Castle Black but because they had to separate him, they sent her away in the middle of nowhere. At no point in the show, did I get any hint that Arya loves sailing. 

The issue is it isn’t clear whether she even returns or not or does she get killed. If she retires to Winterfell after a couple of decades I can see her settling down with Gendry.