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Ser Lepus

[TV Show Spoilers] A theory about the ending.

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We know that Lord Manderly is conspiring to crown Rickon King of the North...

We also know that Littlefinger plans to have Sansa marry Harry the Heir, kill Sweetrobin and use Sansa as puppet queen of the Vale, the North and maybe the Riverlands too, if he manages to kill Edmure and his baby...

But D&D removed those plotlines from the show...

My theory is, at some point we will have Sansa as lady of the Vale (either as wife to Harry or as his widow and mother of his child), Rickon as lord of Winterfell, and Edmure back as lord of the Riverlands, and they will support Jon's claim either as King of the North (as a legitimized Stark) or as King of the Seven Kingdoms (as a Targaryen), mostly because he is the one leading the war against the Others...

Dany and Jon, during the period they are working together, could legitimize Edric Storm as a Baratheon and make him lord of the Stormlands, and they could help Tyrion claim Casterly Rock... Asha Greyjoy could use Theon as puppet king of the Iron Islands...

If we assume that the ending of the show and of the novels are somewhat similar, and that Dany ends dead and Jon exiled (because of honor, to fulfill his oaths as a menber of the Night Watch...) Jon could nominate Bran as his heir... Sansa, Rickon, Theon and Edmure would support him, and Tyrion and Edric, who would be working with Dany and the Starks before Dany was shanked, would be persuaded to do it too...

With Jon as king naming Bran his heir, and the backing of so many great lords, it would make sense for Bran to be crowned...

But D&D cut so many plotlines and characters away that it was no longer possible to do it that way, and they had to half-ass the TV series ending we know...

Edited by Ser Lepus

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6 hours ago, Flightless bird said:

Brans arc is tied into the werewoods, to see the past he has to look through the werewood net... how do you suppose this would work for him and his beliefs in the south where there is no werewood trees.  

He could move the capital to the Eye of the Gods after Dany burns KL...

Heh... the whole kingdom will freak out if Bran moves to Harrenhal...

Edited by Ser Lepus

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The more I think of it and the more I'm convinced we'll have KL (getting rid of fAegon) playing out before the Long Night (containing or destroying for good the Others). It started with them it could be interesting to finish with them. I always thought Dany or Jon would die in that final battle against ice. I guess we'll see how things play out in Winds (especially how fast Dany will arrive in Westeros).

When I read the books the first time it's at least what I thought. I must admit the show made me doubt that chronology but now it makes sense again. Dany dies (maybe à la Nissa Nissa), Jon saves the day... He stays helping the North rebuild leaving the South to Tyrion or whoever. Or Jon dies sacrificing his life (afterall he was born to be a Savior or the weapon again the Others whether you think he's Azor Ahai or Lightbringer), Dany goes back south and leaves the North in the hands of the remaining Stark. 

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On 5/24/2019 at 2:59 AM, Ser Lepus said:

they will support Jon's claim either as King of the North (as a legitimized Stark) or as King of the Seven Kingdoms (as a Targaryen), mostly because he is the one leading the war against the Others...

There is no way this could happen given that Jon is a sworn brother of the Night's Watch. He cannot become legitimized now, as Ned, his supposed father, is dead. Even if he were alive, Jon cannot legally hold lands or titles anymore. In the books, he's bleeding to death. If he is resurrected as in the show, he would have to convince people that he died and came back to life, so his oath was fulfilled in some manner. I highly doubt this would ever happen. 

As for the revelation that he is Rhaegar's son, people would definitely demand proof. Ned had the whole realm totally believing Jon is his son (even Tyrion buys it). I don't see how they could be convinced otherwise. Jon might be able to ride a dragon, but I don't know if the lords would take that as proof that he's Rhaegar's son. 

Even if he manages to convince everyone he's Rhaegar's son, that doesn't make him the "true heir" to the kingdom as in the show. The Targ seat was usurped. When Rhaegar died, Aerys made Viserys his heir, who died without issue. Viserys's heir is said to be Dany. We know fAegon is going to show up sometime, who would be Jon's older brother. If he ascends the throne, even for a short while, fAegon's sons would be heir to the throne, not Jon. Not to mention that fact that in the house of the dragons, Dany has the dragons, which probably makes her the head of the house, woman or not. 

In any case, Jon is a crow and cannot become king of anywhere (except on the Wall as the Lord Commander). 

On 5/24/2019 at 2:59 AM, Ser Lepus said:

My theory is, at some point we will have Sansa as lady of the Vale (either as wife to Harry or as his widow and mother of his child), Rickon as lord of Winterfell,

I think Sansa would be lady of the Vale, just not as Harry's wife. Littlefinger might marry her and ascend to the seat. I think there are hints that she kills him. If that happens, she could be the lady of the Vale without husband problems. I think Sansa ceases to be a Stark (foreshadowed by her direwolf's death). 

I always thought when it all ends, Rickon might end up looking after Winterfell. But it's just a thought and I have nothing in the text to support it. 

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On 5/23/2019 at 6:29 PM, Ser Lepus said:

We know that Lord Manderly is conspiring to crown Rickon King of the North...

We also know that Littlefinger plans to have Sansa marry Harry the Heir, kill Sweetrobin and use Sansa as puppet queen of the Vale, the North and maybe the Riverlands too, if he manages to kill Edmure and his baby...

Would littlefinger murder sweetrobin, though?

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I don't think Manderly is conspiring to make Rickon King, he is conspiring to return the Stark Lordship with him, isn't he?

The wolf will prove the boy is who we say he is, should the Dreadfort attempt to deny him. That is my price, Lord Davos. Smuggle me back my liege lord, and I will take Stannis Baratheon as my king.

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On ‎5‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 5:45 AM, Lady Valicious said:

The more I think of it and the more I'm convinced we'll have KL (getting rid of fAegon) playing out before the Long Night (containing or destroying for good the Others).

I 100% agree.

My theory is that Aegon and Jon Con are going to take King's Landing and Dany burning King's Landing is actually going to be her taking it from Aegon, not Cersei.  I think the show inadvertently gave this plot point away by naming the episode "The Bells".  Only book readers (and at that, book readers who had recently read or reread Dance) would pick up on the fact that Jon Con is frequently haunted by the bells from The Battle of the Bells.  I think those chapters are foreshadowing him trying to defend the city for Aegon while Dany burns it.

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On 5/26/2019 at 5:45 AM, Lady Valicious said:

The more I think of it and the more I'm convinced we'll have KL (getting rid of fAegon) playing out before the Long Night (containing or destroying for good the Others). It started with them it could be interesting to finish with them. I always thought Dany or Jon would die in that final battle against ice. I guess we'll see how things play out in Winds (especially how fast Dany will arrive in Westeros).

I think I agree to a point that the Long Night will be the more important thing to happen. But I do think it happens before getting rid of Aegon at KL. Getting rid of Aegon is more of an afterthought (the scouring of the shire if you will).

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On 5/24/2019 at 3:58 AM, Flightless bird said:

Brans arc is tied into the werewoods, to see the past he has to look through the werewood net... how do you suppose this would work for him and his beliefs in the south where there is no werewood trees.  

This x 999. There is no way Bran will discover what happened in the Tower of Joy. His story will likely go in a very different direction. I also don't believe the "White Walkers were made as bio-weapons by The Children" thing will be in the books.

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On 5/23/2019 at 8:58 PM, Flightless bird said:

Brans arc is tied into the werewoods, to see the past he has to look through the werewood net... how do you suppose this would work for him and his beliefs in the south where there is no werewood trees.  

Well I guess that means that they are going to have to plant some more weirwoods.

I think the very last chapter of A Dream of Spring will be a Bran POV and will take place over the course of decades, maybe even a century.

With him as king, then commissioning a massive replanting campaign of weirwoods and the subsequent worship of them will be guaranteed.

On 5/24/2019 at 3:54 AM, Ser Lepus said:

He could move the capital to the Eye of the Gods after Dany burns KL...

Heh... the whole kingdom will freak out if Bran moves to Harrenhal…

I agree.

After Daenerys levels King's Landing, Bran will move the capital to either Harrenhal or the Isle of Faces. Most likely, the Isle of Faces.

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On 5/23/2019 at 4:29 PM, Ser Lepus said:

We know that Lord Manderly is conspiring to crown Rickon King of the North...

We also know that Littlefinger plans to have Sansa marry Harry the Heir, kill Sweetrobin and use Sansa as puppet queen of the Vale, the North and maybe the Riverlands too, if he manages to kill Edmure and his baby...

 

Neither of these statements is actually true.

Manderly tells Davos that he will pledge himself to Stannis if Davos rescues his "liege lord". Manderly's liege lord is Bran, Manderly knows that Bran survived the Sack of Winterfell, from Wex's story. Manderly knows he is sending Davos after Rickon (due to the absence of Hoder - Manderly was at Winterfell during the Harvest Festival, and is familiar with Hodor's role helping Bran.) Conclusion: Manderly has no intention of pledging himself to Stannis. He is deceiving Davos by using "exact words".

We know Littlefinger told Sansa he has arranged a marriage between her and Harry. Harry is a protege of Bronze Yohn Royce, an enemy of Littlefinger. We have no reason to believe that Littlefinger intends that the marriage take place. Harry is a known lech, and Sansa is posing as a bastard. LF tells her she must win Harry over. It reeks of a date rape plot to discredit Harry.

Moreover, LF's position in the Vale is as Swetrobin's stepfather and protector. To maintain his position, he needs Sweetrobin to live, or find another alliance. (Perhaps the obscure Arryns of Gulltown.)

I would not count on anything from the show to be foreshadowing.

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I have done some pondering about the ending, in light of the show's ending.  My thoughts are that some of the big points are going to happen, but happen in a different order and in different ways.

Specifically, I think Daenerys' leveling of King's Landing I don't think will be to overthrow Cersei, but Aegon and Jon Con.  Jon Con's chapters often refer to how he is haunted by the bells during the Battle of the Bells.....after the episode aired, entitled The Bells, I started thinking and now I am convinced that Jon Con's reflections are foreshadowing him being on the ground when Dany sacks King's Landing. 

I think this sack will occur PRIOR to the battle with the dead.

If the plot point regarding Jon and Dany bears fruit, I still think he will kill her, but only as a fulfilment of the PtwP/AA prophecy.

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4 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I have done some pondering about the ending, in light of the show's ending.  My thoughts are that some of the big points are going to happen, but happen in a different order and in different ways.

Specifically, I think Daenerys' leveling of King's Landing I don't think will be to overthrow Cersei, but Aegon and Jon Con.  Jon Con's chapters often refer to how he is haunted by the bells during the Battle of the Bells.....after the episode aired, entitled The Bells, I started thinking and now I am convinced that Jon Con's reflections are foreshadowing him being on the ground when Dany sacks King's Landing. 

I think this sack will occur PRIOR to the battle with the dead.

If the plot point regarding Jon and Dany bears fruit, I still think he will kill her, but only as a fulfilment of the PtwP/AA prophecy.

I'd agree with that.  By putting Aegon and co in chargeo f Westeros when Dany arrives, it turns her savior trope on its head and gives her an opportunity and reason to lose her cool.  To have everything she's gone through be for nothing, especially if King Aegon is like, "Welcome home Aunt Dany!  Would you like to get married and have my babies?  No?  that's cool.  Want to live in the red keep?"

I mean it'll just break her mind.  Plus she'll have a huge army that's expecting to get paid in loot and pillage, who won't be all that excited to turn around and go home, so they'll be motivated to start the war regardless.

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The writers of the show removed Sansa's Vale storyline because according to them she is only there in her very first chapters and then leaves. Sounds to me that something or someone will scare Sansa so much that it will make her believe she's no longer save in the Vale and therefore flees and seeks protection in Jon and the wall. 

Edited by Elegant Woes

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You know thinking of Tyrion and his “penance” or having a Tyland Lannister esque role. I wonder who will get the rock if Tyrion doesn’t get it. He might get it and then pass it on to some surviving Lannister cousin or Joy.

Personally, I’m fond of the notion that if Tyrion does serve Bran as a matter of penance for his role in destroying the continent, he would give Sansa Casterly Rock-along with her other titles this would make her one of the most powerful nobles in the realm. 

The show didn’t confirm Tyrion as lord of CR(they kind of forgot), so that does make me wonder where the chips will fall there.

As for sack of KL-it wouldn’t surprise me if Daenerys sacks KL first, and then goes north at the behest of Marwyn and Jon and whoever and fights the others but is unappreciated for it and already viewed as a tyrant in the south, and then comes back to find Euron and or Cersei have seized the throne in her absence(this being the scouting of the shire moment).  

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It's weird that they forgot about Tyrion wanting to be Lord of Casterly Rock. Especially when you consider how obsessed he is with it in the novels. Maybe it's not even Tyrion who is a hand, and the writers just shoehorned him in. I personally believe he will die. Tywin's legacy is rotten after all. He has obliberated two houses already. He should be punished for that.  Since Tywin has always been obsessed with the bloodline so the eradication of the Lannister house should be the perfect way to dish poetic justice on him 

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On 11/1/2019 at 6:44 PM, Elegant Woes said:

It's weird that they forgot about Tyrion wanting to be Lord of Casterly Rock. Especially when you consider how obsessed he is with it in the novels. Maybe it's not even Tyrion who is a hand, and the writers just shoehorned him in. I personally believe he will die. Tywin's legacy is rotten after all. He has obliberated two houses already. He should be punished for that.  Since Tywin has always been obsessed with the bloodline so the eradication of the Lannister house should be the perfect way to dish poetic justice on him 

Well, if it turns out that Aerys was the father of Jaime and Cersei then that would be some poetic justice already.

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On 11/1/2019 at 12:44 PM, Elegant Woes said:

It's weird that they forgot about Tyrion wanting to be Lord of Casterly Rock. Especially when you consider how obsessed he is with it in the novels. Maybe it's not even Tyrion who is a hand, and the writers just shoehorned him in. I personally believe he will die. Tywin's legacy is rotten after all. He has obliberated two houses already. He should be punished for that.  Since Tywin has always been obsessed with the bloodline so the eradication of the Lannister house should be the perfect way to dish poetic justice on him 

I mean, are Janei or Joy Hill, or Tyrek or a Lannister of Lannisport guilty for Tywin’s crimes? 

Olyvar Frey isn’t guilty for Walder’s crimes. 

Even if you condemn Tywin and all his children, then I don’t see how any moral person could condemn Janei or Tyrek or Dorna, Daven, Cerenna or Myrielle, or heck Margot Lannister In the reach.

From what we know, the vast majority of the Lannister clan are normal decent people. The books(and show) focus on the least savory ones. 

As for Tyrion, chalk that up to another time of the show “forgetting”, having him give up the title as part of his “punishment” would have made an interesting touch. I’m not sure the show actually acknowledged the Westerlands as an entity ever-the crag, CR, and Lannisport are all mentioned but the westerlands aren’t ever directly referred to as a distinct geographical and political region. 

Regarding Tyrion as hand-/rebuilding as penance here is a passage from ASOS

No, but others come in their places. Leave them be . . . but if they start throwing up hovels against the wall again, pull them down at once. The war's not done yet, no matter what these fools may think." He spied the Mud Gate up ahead. "I have seen enough for now. We'll return on the morrow with the guild masters to go over their plans." He sighed. Well, I burned most of this, I suppose it's only just that I rebuild it. 

Tyrion IV ASOS 

(Bolded this part for emphasis). 

Edited by Lord Invictus

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I don't mean all the Lannisters, I should have explained better. I only mean Tywin's direct line. And in terms of foreshadowing a lot of things don't look good for Tyrion. For one there's hints he might lose a tongue - fitting if you tell me, because if there's a pattern I noticed with the Lannister siblings is that each of them lose what they took pride in. Jaime took pride in being a knight and he lost his hand. Cersei took pride in her beauty and she gained weight and her hair was cut off. Tyrion takes pride in his wits and therefore it's very likely he will lose his tongue.

Secondly Tyrion has been accused of a lot of things in ASOIAF and most of them weren't true. It even got as far as him getting two trails on a crime he didn't commit. Since GRRM likes to follow the rule of three then Tyrion is bound to get a trail for the third time - and this time he will not be so lucky and most likely be actually guilty. 

Which brings on my third issue. Despite being somewhat friends with Jon, oddly enough he doesn't have a good relation with wolves in general. He felt uneasy being around Ghost, got attacked by three direwolves and lastly he dreamed of getting chased by wolves while naked. These are quite ominous foreshadowing. Something tells me that in ADOS he will be an enemy of the Starks. And since Starks are the heroes of the story and will end up on the top in the end I don't think his ending will be a good one. 

Edited by Elegant Woes

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