Rose of Red Lake Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 2 minutes ago, SeanF said: If that's the case, then the ending will not be "bittersweet". It will be nihilistic. I agree! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divica Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 7 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said: I just dont feel comfortable picking and choosing who ends differently, it seems like an arbitrary exercise. The Vale is Sansa's prison, that's where LF took her against her will. I dont see her staying there. She creates Winterfell out of snow as she longs for home, so I think that's where she ends up. And the vale army will march north because of sansa's pretty hair? They can t even reach the North… Sansa has to gain enough power in the vale in order to be in position to help the north. And I have huge doubts that the north will accept sansa or that she will want to accept the north. We can see how much she thinks like southerns in her latest chapters... 13 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said: The North withdrawing from the 7k makes sense because Northern Independence was a main plot point since Book 1. It doesn't make much sense that the North wouldn't want to be ruled by a son of Ned Stark, but if Bran marks the end of rule by inheritance, I guess it makes sense that the North would withdraw. I don't think GRRM is going to change much except the secondary characters around the mains. I think that ending the inheritance is another show invention… It just doesn t work... 18 minutes ago, SeanF said: If that's the case, then the ending will not be "bittersweet". It will be nihilistic. I think that a lot of readers would take the view that he spent thirty odd years just trolling them. Bran has no qualifications for kingship that I can think of. As of ADWD, he's becoming a tree. Tyrion failed upwards in the show; if he becomes Hand in the books then he will have clawed his way upwards through malevolence. Daenerys will be Hitler, and Jon Snow an exiled kinslayer; Arya will disappear like Elissa Farman; Jaime will return to Cersei like a dog to its vomit; the Others will presumably be defeated, but that's the only sweet element I can think of among the bitter. Just to add that in the books tyrion is a condemened kinsalyer and kingslayer. Besides being a dwarf that nobody likes. I have no idea why anybody would respect him as hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose of Red Lake Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 5 minutes ago, divica said: And the vale army will march north because of sansa's pretty hair? They can t even reach the North… Sansa has to gain enough power in the vale in order to be in position to help the north. And I have huge doubts that the north will accept sansa or that she will want to accept the north. We can see how much she thinks like southerns in her latest chapters... It's not impossible to imagine the Vale lords going North, since it's part of LF's plan anyway. It just won't go as he expects. Sweetrobin will do anything Sansa/Alayne says at this point, and both he and LF would do anything to attempt to find her if she escapes and goes North herself (how I think it will happen). The North probably won't elect Sansa right away, just like in the show. Sansa fighting to protect her family/home like Catelyn, while ensuring the North's sovereignty like Robb, makes sense. Sansa's entire journey is about her autonomy, the value of home, and learning to trust her instincts. 13 minutes ago, divica said: I think that ending the inheritance is another show invention… It just doesn t work... Why? It's basically how Braavos and Pentos select their rulers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divica Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 7 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said: It's not impossible to imagine the Vale lords going North, since it's part of LF's plan anyway. It just won't go as he expects. Sweetrobin will do anything Sansa/Alayne says at this point, and both he and LF would do anything to attempt to find her if she escapes and goes North herself (how I think it will happen). The North probably won't elect Sansa right away, just like in the show. Since when is it part of LF plan? We don t know his plan… He can t even say anything about having sansa to the lords because the crown is looking for her... And why would sansa go north while it is ruled by the boltons and they already have arya (farya) to legitimize their claim? Why would she go to the place where it is easier for someone to recognise her and deliver ehr to the boltons? Hell, how would sansa go anywhere alone? She has never traveled alone… She would die within days. And again, the vale can t enter the north. There isn t much anyone can do to send troops north without going through moat cailin... Besides the show there is notinhg that points to sansa going north in the near future. Her best bet is to use alayne to get power and survive. 18 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said: Sansa fighting to protect her family/home like Catelyn, while ensuring the North's sovereignty like Robb, makes sense. Sansa's entire journey is about her autonomy, the value of home, and learning to trust her instincts. I have no idea what you are talking about. Sansa has no reason to be obecessed with northern Independence given how much help the north will need to feed itself and fight the others. Her instics are probably the worse in the intire series and she never liked the north… The fact that the south treated her badly doesn t mean she would be happy in the north…. Look how happy she is planning the tourney. How many tourneys did the north have in tha last decades? How do you think she will handle wildlings and clansmen? The place where she fits better is really the vale. It is a mixture of the north and south like sansa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose of Red Lake Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 9 minutes ago, divica said: Since when is it part of LF plan? We don t know his plan… He can t even say anything about having sansa to the lords because the crown is looking for her... He states it point blank in her final Feast chapter, he's going to rally the Vale to her cause to take back the North. Her storyline is pointing her North. 10 minutes ago, divica said: And why would sansa go north while it is ruled by the boltons and they already have arya (farya) to legitimize their claim? Why would she go to the place where it is easier for someone to recognise her and deliver ehr to the boltons? Hell, how would sansa go anywhere alone? She has never traveled alone… She would die within days. These are questions for the writer to figure out. If he wants her to go North, he can imagine ways of doing it. I've put forward my theories here for how it might happen. 11 minutes ago, divica said: And again, the vale can t enter the north. There isn t much anyone can do to send troops north without going through moat cailin... Gulltown to White Harbor. 12 minutes ago, divica said: Besides the show there is notinhg that points to sansa going north in the near future. Her best bet is to use alayne to get power and survive. Yes, there is: Her longing for it. She thought she was going home but LF lied to her about it. 14 minutes ago, divica said: I have no idea what you are talking about. Sansa has no reason to be obecessed with northern Independence given how much help the north will need to feed itself and fight the others. Her instics are probably the worse in the intire series and she never liked the north… The fact that the south treated her badly doesn t mean she would be happy in the north…. Look how happy she is planning the tourney. How many tourneys did the north have in tha last decades? How do you think she will handle wildlings and clansmen? The place where she fits better is really the vale. It is a mixture of the north and south like sansa. I think you're misreading all of Sansa's chapters and don't understand her character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divica Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 3 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said: He states it point blank in her final Feast chapter, he's going to rally the Vale to her cause to take back the North. Her storyline is pointing her North He says this? I don t remember… Do you have a quote? 3 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said: Gulltown to White Harbor. With what fleet? And can their armies even travel within the vale in winter? Isn t it too risky? 3 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said: Yes, there is: Her longing for it. She thought she was going home but LF lied to her about it. Are you saying that as some time ago she wanted to return north then there is evidence that she is going north? 3 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said: I think you're misreading all of Sansa's chapters and don't understand her character No. I am being realistic. Despite the fact that sansa didn t like the people in KL because of the way they treated her she still likes a lot of Southern costums. She likes knights and tourneys and her talks with miranda... How do you think this girl will fit in a war ravaged country, with uncivilized wildlings, clansmen and ironmen? Where there are wargs and people are desperate for food? Where her home was burned and most of the people she knew are dead or completly traumatized? If you think sansa would fit here I don t know what to say... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 I'm not convinced by the case for Northern independence in the books. Surely, people uniting to fight the Others would reinforce the message that the Seven Kingdoms should hang together, rather than hang separately? I think there's still a lot to happen in the Vale, as well. Sansa won't marry Ramsay Bolton, and the Boltons will likely be brought down by Stannis, and the Manderleys, not Jon and Sansa. In fact, I'd say there must be huge differences between book and show, in terms of the Northern plot line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryk Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 17 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said: His statements about Tyrion are all over the place. “Tyrion might be who I want to be, but Sam is probably closer to who I actually am." I don't think he wants to be Walter White--who he called a worse monster than anyone else in Westeros. GRRM saying "if anything" we can read about how Penny, Mel, Jorah, Arianne, ect (basically every secondary character) ends up in the books, makes me think the main characters' endings are the same. Because he admires Tyrion's wit, he said he wishes he could come up with responses as fast as Tyrion. That's what he means by "Tyrion might be who I want to be...", he's obviously not referring to all the bad stuff Tyrion does. However he also said Tyrion would make the best ruler specifically because he has both a ruthless side and a compassionate side, which is true in the books (obviously in the show the ruthless side was non-existent); so I acknowledge there is a very good chance Tyrion will end up as Hand, especially because GRRM admits to being a Richard III fan and Tyrion is most like Richard III. But Tyrion ending up as Hand doesn't mean GRRM thinks he's a good character, just that he's a bit more cynical than Tolkien about what is required of a good ruler. Regarding the major character's endings, I will eat my hat if Sansa ends up as QiTN in the books, I'm positive that's not going to happen, and I'm also skeptical about Arya's ending being the same. 16 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said: Interviewer: "When you heard some of what was planned, did you get emotional about it?" GRRM: "Well, you know most of it is based on what I planned. So I got emotional about it 20 years ago, when I first thought of some of these things." (x) I don't like the ending either (for once we agree). Well, the key word there is "most". The things I think will definitely be the same: - Bran will be king, though it won't happen in so stupid a way - Jon will go into exile (I think it will be his choice in the books though) - Dany will become tyrannical, and Jon probably will end up killing her, as it fits the Azor Azai prophecy (again, it won't happen in as stupid a way in the books, she won't randomly go insane and burn down the city. I think that in the books, Dany's choices will seem sympathetic to the reader but tyrannical to the people of Westeros, kind of like how Jon's decision to let the Wildlings through the Wall seems the right choice to the reader, but makes him look like a mad Lord Commander to the people of Westeros) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 On 11/24/2019 at 11:32 AM, Darryk said: Because he admires Tyrion's wit, he said he wishes he could come up with responses as fast as Tyrion. That's what he means by "Tyrion might be who I want to be...", he's obviously not referring to all the bad stuff Tyrion does. However he also said Tyrion would make the best ruler specifically because he has both a ruthless side and a compassionate side, which is true in the books (obviously in the show the ruthless side was non-existent); so I acknowledge there is a very good chance Tyrion will end up as Hand, especially because GRRM admits to being a Richard III fan and Tyrion is most like Richard III. But Tyrion ending up as Hand doesn't mean GRRM thinks he's a good character, just that he's a bit more cynical than Tolkien about what is required of a good ruler. Regarding the major character's endings, I will eat my hat if Sansa ends up as QiTN in the books, I'm positive that's not going to happen, and I'm also skeptical about Arya's ending being the same. Well, the key word there is "most". The things I think will definitely be the same: - Bran will be king, though it won't happen in so stupid a way - Jon will go into exile (I think it will be his choice in the books though) - Dany will become tyrannical, and Jon probably will end up killing her, as it fits the Azor Azai prophecy (again, it won't happen in as stupid a way in the books, she won't randomly go insane and burn down the city. I think that in the books, Dany's choices will seem sympathetic to the reader but tyrannical to the people of Westeros, kind of like how Jon's decision to let the Wildlings through the Wall seems the right choice to the reader, but makes him look like a mad Lord Commander to the people of Westeros) Having a kinslaying rapist (who will probably instigate atrocities) coming out the winner would be a disappointment, IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Invictus Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 On 11/23/2019 at 11:31 AM, SeanF said: Book Tyrion is appalling. He kidnapped Shae, failed to pay her as promised, kept her in danger in a war zone, and ended up strangling her in a fit of fury. Martin has described it as his worst act. He hit Penny, turned a singer into a pot o' brown, armed Mountain Clansmen in order to wreak havoc against the Smallfolk of the Vale, fought for a usurper, wants nothing more than to rape his sister, threatened Tommen with rape, raped a sex slave before vomiting on her, and sees every attractive woman he meets as just a walking vagina. And, he's a great character. Appalling, but great. He's certainly the most horrible of the top four characters, and the show turned him into a travesty of his book self. He is the Walter White of the books. He has the same anger, pride and bitterness. Oh sure, I didn't deny any of that. Except the usurper charge-does anyone fairly expect Tyrion to betray his family for Stannis? That's a rather unfair thing to judge him for. Given his fate was tied to the Lannisters winning, and I doubt the Baratheon brothers or Robb would have looked kindly on him if he had sold out his family. Fight for Joffrey-live, betray him for Stannis die. That seems fairly cut and dry to me. Also he fought for his family and blood-which is the expected choice in Westeros. Of course one could argue he should have done that anyway consequences to his own life be ignored, but that is a sort of moral absolutism I don't really hold(nor do most people IU or RL for that matter). Tyrion is probably the quintessential Martinian "human heart in conflict with itself". And unlike Ramsay, Euron, or Gregor-born sociopaths we know and sympathize with why Tyrion is the way he is. Tyrion wasn't born a monster, he became one due to the way he was raised and the way his family failed him. I would say his grudges against his sister and Lysa Arryn are legitimate in their nature. Even if he acts or wishes to act on them in utterly vile ways. Tyrion on the other hand can be compassionate, heroic, and willing to dispense accurate if unpleasant advice. A true monster would not have rushed to save Catelyn Stark or taken the time to make Bran a saddle, or told Jon the unpleasant truth about the NW. But I believe we are getting off topic here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackLightning Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 16 hours ago, Lord Invictus said: Oh sure, I didn't deny any of that. Except the usurper charge-does anyone fairly expect Tyrion to betray his family for Stannis? That's a rather unfair thing to judge him for. Given his fate was tied to the Lannisters winning, and I doubt the Baratheon brothers or Robb would have looked kindly on him if he had sold out his family. Fight for Joffrey-live, betray him for Stannis die. That seems fairly cut and dry to me. Also he fought for his family and blood-which is the expected choice in Westeros. Of course one could argue he should have done that anyway consequences to his own life be ignored, but that is a sort of moral absolutism I don't really hold(nor do most people IU or RL for that matter). Tyrion is probably the quintessential Martinian "human heart in conflict with itself". And unlike Ramsay, Euron, or Gregor-born sociopaths we know and sympathize with why Tyrion is the way he is. Tyrion wasn't born a monster, he became one due to the way he was raised and the way his family failed him. I would say his grudges against his sister and Lysa Arryn are legitimate in their nature. Even if he acts or wishes to act on them in utterly vile ways. Tyrion on the other hand can be compassionate, heroic, and willing to dispense accurate if unpleasant advice. A true monster would not have rushed to save Catelyn Stark or taken the time to make Bran a saddle, or told Jon the unpleasant truth about the NW. But I believe we are getting off topic here. Please. His grudge against Lysa Arryn is illegitimate to me but you can make the argument that Lysa deserves Tyrion's wrath. Okay fine. But it has absolutely nothing to do with the smallfolk of the Vale or the Vale lords and the knights, all of whom have to put up with the criminal shenanigans of the mountain clans. And Lysa's home is at the top of an unassailable mountain..arming the mountain clans with high-quality swords and armor does nothing to her personally. There's no way on Earth that Tyrion is surviving this series unscathed with a smile and a cheeky comment about brothels. Not only is he a kinslayer (!!!), he actively contributed to a kingslaying (!!!) and manipulated another man into kinslaying (!!!) and violating guest right (!!!). Come on man, Jaime caught a lot of heat for killing a literal madman in a degenerating crisis situation. Robb breaks a betrothal, Ned shows unreasonable unwarranted mercy and all hell breaks loose. Yet, Jon and Tyrion get to get off with not even a slap on the wrist. It's a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Gareth Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 On 11/24/2019 at 1:19 AM, SeanF said: I'm not convinced by the case for Northern independence in the books. Surely, people uniting to fight the Others would reinforce the message that the Seven Kingdoms should hang together, rather than hang separately? I think there's still a lot to happen in the Vale, as well. Sansa won't marry Ramsay Bolton, and the Boltons will likely be brought down by Stannis, and the Manderleys, not Jon and Sansa. In fact, I'd say there must be huge differences between book and show, in terms of the Northern plot line. The journey would be different, the outcome the same. I think there was a strong chance that the Knights of the Vale would have saved the day at Winterfell, and they'd have been led by Sansa or led by Littlefinger, to save Sansa. The name Winterfell is a clever one if the Others are defeated there (effectively meaning that is where winter fell) and I think the remaining Stark's will be there when the Others arrive. I don't think Bolton falls to Stannis. I think the show painted broad strokes, but Ramsay killing Roose makes sense to me. The Bolton's discover Manderley's treason and in the process capture Rickon (which could be another reason Sansa heads to Winterfell with the Vale army). The only think we know for sure is that GRRM wrote in notes to D&D that Ramsay's hounds are important as they are going to have a big scrap against the Direwolves at some point (again, suggesting heavily that Bolton beats Stannis). Direwolves plural is an interesting one. You'd expect Shaggydog to be one of them, but who would the other(s) be? Summer is beyond the wall. So that could also suggest Ghost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apoplexy Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 13 hours ago, Ser Gareth said: The journey would be different, the outcome the same. I think there was a strong chance that the Knights of the Vale would have saved the day at Winterfell, and they'd have been led by Sansa or led by Littlefinger, to save Sansa. That is what I feel as well. We might get there differently, but the ending is going to be just as fatalistic as the show, which I'm dreading. Unless GRRM decides to change something last minute (which I highly doubt), all outcomes are likely to be the same. 13 hours ago, Ser Gareth said: The only think we know for sure is that GRRM wrote in notes to D&D that Ramsay's hounds are important as they are going to have a big scrap against the Direwolves at some point (again, suggesting heavily that Bolton beats Stannis). Direwolves plural is an interesting one. You'd expect Shaggydog to be one of them, but who would the other(s) be? Summer is beyond the wall. So that could also suggest Ghost. I wasn't aware of this, but if true, my guess would be Nymeria and her pack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Gareth Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 5 hours ago, Apoplexy said: That is what I feel as well. We might get there differently, but the ending is going to be just as fatalistic as the show, which I'm dreading. Unless GRRM decides to change something last minute (which I highly doubt), all outcomes are likely to be the same. I wasn't aware of this, but if true, my guess would be Nymeria and her pack. Found the note from GRRM. 'A note for future reference. A season or two down the line Ramsay’s pack of wolfhounds are going to be sent against the Stark direwolves, so we should build up the dogs as much as possible in this and subsequent episodes.' Whilst I think Nymeria is a slim possibility, I do think it would have been unlikely. Her pack would have ripped the wolfhounds apart. Unless she gets separated from her pack or leaves to help Shaggydog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apoplexy Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 6 hours ago, Ser Gareth said: Found the note from GRRM. 'A note for future reference. A season or two down the line Ramsay’s pack of wolfhounds are going to be sent against the Stark direwolves, so we should build up the dogs as much as possible in this and subsequent episodes.' Whilst I think Nymeria is a slim possibility, I do think it would have been unlikely. Her pack would have ripped the wolfhounds apart. Unless she gets separated from her pack or leaves to help Shaggydog. It's been a while since I've read the books, but wouldn't Ramsay's hounds far outnumber Nymeria's pack? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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