Star Trek: Picard

[Rippounet]

32 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Quantum Entanglement is quite real even if it isn't for the purpose it is put to in this context.

Exactly. Quantum entanglement as a means of transporting human neural activity (i.e. consciousness) without destroying it isn't real science in our world.
But it is in Star Trek.
You have to be willing to suspend your disbelief, remember?

[RumHam]

It always bothered me that the transporters have a sending pad but didn't require a receiving pad. They can just beam you anywhere in range from anywhere in range. So why do they bother walking to the transporter room and standing on the pad 90% of the time? 

[DaveSumm]

2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Yes.  That is what that means.  The reason no one talks about it is that there isn't another version of you.  You are destroyed every time.

I just watched the Enterprise pilot, and Malcolm Reed states “I’m not ready to have my molecules compressed into a data stream just yet”. I thought it was an interesting phrase, implying that your molecules are literally sent to wherever as opposed to reproduced. The next question I guess is why; it’s more work when they have replicators that could just replicate the same thing. This is before biological transport of course, so it’s not so that people feel better about it.

[Rippounet]

2 minutes ago, RumHam said:

It always bothered me that the transporters have a sending pad but didn't require a receiving pad. They can just beam you anywhere in range from anywhere in range. So why do they bother walking to the transporter room and standing on the pad 90% of the time? 

It's probably safer that way. Less chances of interference with the energy stream/beam for instance.
OTOH, if you have ensured there is no interference you probably don't need the pad.

[Werthead]

4 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Yes.  That is what that means.  The reason no one talks about it is that there isn't another version of you.  You are destroyed every time.

In Star Trek canon, it is explicitly not what happens. All of your molecules, including those in your brain, neurons etc, are decohered and then physically moved through subspace and then reassembled at the destination point. There is no interruption in consciousness and all the bits that make you "you" are reassembled at the other end. We see this in five or six episodes.

This comes from confusion and the belief that what the transporter does is dismantle a person on the transporter pad and assembles an exact duplicate at the other end out of the existing molecules, like a long-range replicator, but it's not. In fact, Star Trek explicitly states that replicators are far more complex technology than transporters (transporters existing in Archer's time but replicators not until some time between Kirk and Picard).

There is also the fact that a couple of times transporter "doubles" are created from transporter accidents which do indeed make the transporter work like a replicator. However, these are freak events and it's made clear that the double is a separate entity. The original entity was not destroyed in the process.

More problematic is the time that Pulaski was artificially aged by a virus and they returned her to a younger form by using a sample of her DNA from her younger self, and why the Federation isn't doing this all the time (especially given Insurrection's curious claim that the Federation are very keen on further life-extension technology). However, that could be explained by the specifics of the situation (namely the virus and Pulaski's DNA sample was from just a day or two earlier, and over longer periods of time the process would not be viable).

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It always bothered me that the transporters have a sending pad but didn't require a receiving pad. They can just beam you anywhere in range from anywhere in range. So why do they bother walking to the transporter room and standing on the pad 90% of the time? 

 

In the original series and the movies there is a suggestion that there is a slight element of risk involved in transporting from pad to planetary surface. Marginal, but certainly there. So in preference they use pad-to-pad transports, such as the Klingons boarding the Enterprise in Search for Spock and Kirk's team beaming to the Regula One space lab in Wrath of Khan.

The transporters also appear to produce a strong inference pattern, so you can't beam too close to the originating pad. Beaming from one place on the Enterprise to another was considered hazardous, and I think they did it maybe once in the original series (or possibly in the animated series).

Of course, the only time we see a genuine transporter accident is in The Motion Picture on a pad-to-pad transport, but I'll put that down to Sod's law.

By TNG none of these things are a problem any more, so site-to-site transports, beaming on the same ship, beaming at warp (something that TOS I think said was impossible) if velocities are matched and so on are all very safe.

[karaddin]

@Werthead - Thanks Wert, you just added some depth to one of the beats in DISCO season 1. In the mirror universe Emperor Georgiou transports within her ship to get away from an ambush and both Lorca and mirror Stamets were surprised by it and didn't know she had that. I just assumed they meant the preconfigured escape routines, but if that's cutting edge tech for the time then it being a secret fallback security system on her flagship (which is also a lot larger than normal ships, therefore would be viable sooner than on smaller ships) becomes a more thought out moment than I appreciated.

[RumHam]

20 minutes ago, karaddin said:

@Werthead - Thanks Wert, you just added some depth to one of the beats in DISCO season 1. In the mirror universe Emperor Georgiou transports within her ship to get away from an ambush and both Lorca and mirror Stamets were surprised by it and didn't know she had that. I just assumed they meant the preconfigured escape routines, but if that's cutting edge tech for the time then it being a secret fallback security system on her flagship (which is also a lot larger than normal ships, therefore would be viable sooner than on smaller ships) becomes a more thought out moment than I appreciated.

Counterpoint: earlier in season one Lorca casually site to site transports himself and Burnham to the spore room from his quarters instead of just walking there with her. 

 

[karaddin]

2 hours ago, RumHam said:

Counterpoint: earlier in season one Lorca casually site to site transports himself and Burnham to the spore room from his quarters instead of just walking there with her. 

 

Damnit.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

22 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

I just watched the Enterprise pilot, and Malcolm Reed states “I’m not ready to have my molecules compressed into a data stream just yet”. I thought it was an interesting phrase, implying that your molecules are literally sent to wherever as opposed to reproduced. The next question I guess is why; it’s more work when they have replicators that could just replicate the same thing. This is before biological transport of course, so it’s not so that people feel better about it.

I took that as Reed having a limited understanding about how the transporters worked.

[DaveSumm]

22 minutes ago, Arch-MaesterPhilip said:

I took that as Reed having a limited understanding about how the transporters worked.

Well, see Wert’s post I guess. Seems that’s how they work. I imagine all the crew of NX-01 have a pretty decent understanding of its technologies, particular the chief tactical officer. Plus, there’s literally one starship in the whole fleet at this point, he must damn qualified to have made the cut.

[Corvinus85]

@DaveSumm 

I think reproduced is the wrong word here. Wert states that the transporter reassembles you. So Reed isn't entirely wrong, since molecules of matter may have to be "compressed" in a sort of data stream, in order to travel at the speed of light.

[DaveSumm]

I think we’re on the same page, I’m assuming Reed is right.

Discussing this makes me realise that the transporter has to be the most far fetched technology in Star Trek; even leaving the principle itself aside, the fact that the device can reassemble molecules hundreds of miles away from where it’s located is pretty insane. Telling particles where to be from a distance is essentially telekinesis, it should be able to move rocks around on planets from orbit just as easily.

[Werthead]

8 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

I think we’re on the same page, I’m assuming Reed is right.

Discussing this makes me realise that the transporter has to be the most far fetched technology in Star Trek; even leaving the principle itself aside, the fact that the device can reassemble molecules hundreds of miles away from where it’s located is pretty insane. Telling particles where to be from a distance is essentially telekinesis, it should be able to move rocks around on planets from orbit just as easily.

Well, tractor beams.

But yes, the transporter is major BS. There's a reason teleportation almost never appears in hard SF, and even soft SF tends to avoid it. The only other SF franchises which use teleportation IIRC are Warhammer 40,000 - where magic exists so that's a thing - Forbidden Planet and Blake's 7. The only SF novels I've seen it used in recently also use it as a form of personal wormholes, so you need to tunnel through to one point from another, which is more energy intensive (although probably about as far fetched).

If only 1960s special effects technology would have allowed the Enterprise to land on planets every week, the tech would never have come up. Lost in Space went down that route and it was so difficult and expensive that their approach was to keep the ship on a planet for several weeks in a row to keep costs down before taking off again.

[Corvinus85]

4 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Well, tractor beams.

But yes, the transporter is major BS. There's a reason teleportation almost never appears in hard SF, and even soft SF tends to avoid it. The only other SF franchises which use teleportation IIRC are Warhammer 40,000 - where magic exists so that's a thing - Forbidden Planet and Blake's 7. The only SF novels I've seen it used in recently also use it as a form of personal wormholes, so you need to tunnel through to one point from another, which is more energy intensive (although probably about as far fetched).

If only 1960s special effects technology would have allowed the Enterprise to land on planets every week, the tech would never have come up. Lost in Space went down that route and it was so difficult and expensive that their approach was to keep the ship on a planet for several weeks in a row to keep costs down before taking off again.

Stargate uses it, too. And while initially it's used in a limited way, with the Goa'uld/Ancient transport rings (and the technically the stargates themselves), it goes all out later with the Asgard teleportation that is pretty much like the Star Trek teleportation.

[RumHam]

@DaveSumm Seven appears in the fourth episode. 

So there are a lot of weird rumors flying around about Star Trek this week. One was that Seth McFarland and NBC made a pitch to buy Star Trek from CBS. The other was that the franchise is in trouble again, Discovery filmed it's season three finale as a series finale and probably won't return, and Kurtzman is about to be fired. Oh and CBS all Access will supposedly be merged with a forthcoming Viacom streaming service (which is the most likely of the rumors in my opinion.) 

I'm really not inclined to believe the guy "confirming" the "everything is fucked" leaks cause he was the same one supposedly made shit up about Captain Marvel because he hates women or something. But apparently he's not the only source. Time will tell. 

[Toth]

I had heard about the Seth McFarland buyout last week. I think this is wishful thinking. If it truly happened though, I would be genuinely hopeful for the franchise for the first time in ages.

I haven't watched episode 4 yet, but I want to throw in here that I find it funny how Picard portrays the Federation as isolationist while STO in their 10th anniversary are handing out a starship that is the first complete Federation/Klingon joint venture that both factions can employ. I think it looks pretty neat:

Too bad I don't play anymore.... it really makes me want to get it...

[DaveSumm]

2 hours ago, RumHam said:

@DaveSumm Seven appears in the fourth episode. 

So there are a lot of weird rumors flying around about Star Trek this week. One was that Seth McFarland and NBC made a pitch to buy Star Trek from CBS. The other was that the franchise is in trouble again, Discovery filmed it's season three finale as a series finale and probably won't return, and Kurtzman is about to be fired. Oh and CBS all Access will supposedly be merged with a forthcoming Viacom streaming service (which is the most likely of the rumors in my opinion.) 

I'm really not inclined to believe the guy "confirming" the "everything is fucked" leaks cause he was the same one supposedly made shit up about Captain Marvel because he hates women or something. But apparently he's not the only source. Time will tell. 

Seems really severely pessimistic ... and I’m not sure I buy the ‘Fuller offered to run everything’ rumour. Why on earth would they do that? He’s gone massively over budget on recent projects, and nothing’s really changed since they scrapped him from Discovery. CBS All Access not doing well I could certainly believe, but there’s gotta be a fair amount of cash coming from Netflix / Prime showing outside the US?

[Toth]

So I now rectified that and watched the episode... and... ugh... I felt like this one was much better paced than the previous ones, but there was just soo much stupid in there. Starting with little details like Tilly saying that there are 3 billion stars in the galaxy when even the most pessimistic current estimation is 100 billion, which would mean that the Star Trek galaxy is stupidly tiny. Or the captain calling Seven's ship ugly when his ship looks like someone's midlife crisis crying out. Then there is this whole stupid flashback where Picard in the middle of a rescue mission spends what looks like weeks bonding with the refugees on what looks like a holiday trip just to makethe sob story background of the bland new crew member happen who also has some infuriating eccentricity. Always speaking what goes through your head without filter? Seriously? Have the writers any idea just how frustrating such a person is to deal with? Bloody hell, even Tilly points that out right away! And then the writer pretend that this equals being absolutely truthful... Why not use an oath of truth then? Why have they make that oh so impressive cult sound like some edgy kids who give no shits about anyone?

Also how come they always leave the cool people behind and take the weird ones with them on this bloody road trip? We already left the awesome Tal Shiar couple behind and now the Assassin cult leader who seemed like the only nice person on this planet is out of focus already!

Then comes the 'bar fight' scene. That one made me genuinely freak out that Picard has gone senile. What the fuck was he thinking? The way he made a show of ripping off their sign, forcing himself in and acting like an entitled buffoon. The hell did he think would happen? It was just there to have the scene of stick boy murdering some dudes, so Picard basically killed them all with his idiocy. Who wrote this nonsense? Especially since I felt like the bar patrons were absolutely justified in their reaction and their calling him out. They made Picard a senile murderer...

The fight scene against the decrepit old T'Liss class was kinda cool though and it fit the lawless backwater theme. In fact it pains me to admit that I felt nostalgic about Star Trek Online again. If you make a Romulan Republic character you start the game escaping the invasion of your hometown with a ragtag bunch of survivors in such a ship. Good times...

And the Seven arrival reminded me of the new Star Wars movies in the worst possible way. Conveniently running into people the viewers feel nostalgic about for absolutely no reason whatsoever. And the preview of the next one... So Kurtzman looked at Star Wars and said "You know what people loved? Canto Bight!". I'm really loosing my patience with this show right now. For fuck's sake, I felt glad every time they cut to the Borg Cube plot. That at least felt like it slightly moved the plot forward. Childish ice skating nonsense aside, though I must say the objectophilia dude actually has me rooting for him for some reason. Maybe because it rests on solid proven tropes...

[Corvinus85]

12 minutes ago, Toth said:

Starting with little details like Tilly saying that there are 3 billion stars in the galaxy when even the most pessimistic current estimation is 100 billion, which would mean that the Star Trek galaxy is stupidly tiny.

I did a double-take on that, too, and now I'm worried that Kurtzman is going the way of JJ when writing about space. (He probably already has)

I'm feeling pessimistic about the show at this point. I don't even care to start a new thread. 

[Mindwalker]

8 hours ago, Toth said:

 

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Also how come they always leave the cool people behind and take the weird ones with them on this bloody road trip? We already left the awesome Tal Shiar couple behind and now the Assassin cult leader who seemed like the only nice person on this planet is out of focus already!

This, so much!

Also, the holiday/ bonding during rescue mission thing? Two reasons:

1. Clumsily make a point about colonialism by painting Picard as an entitled White Savior Type

2. Heaping more guilt on him, because it was apparently his fault that Starfleet canceled the rescue mission and/ or his fault for his threat to resign not working out. His fault that he couldn't keep the promises he had made in good faith.

Oh wait, there may be a no. 3:

Did they try to channel the "Bush is reading to a little kid when he gets the news about 9/11" scene?!

Also, apparently he didn't even bother to once check up on his friends/ poor little fatherless kid whom he had practically adopted. (Slightly exaggerating, but really...)

Seriously, I'm all for a flawed Picard who's made mistakes, but they make him an ignorant dumbass and  complete failure.

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Then comes the 'bar fight' scene. That one made me genuinely freak out that Picard has gone senile. What the fuck was he thinking? The way he made a show of ripping off their sign, forcing himself in and acting like an entitled buffoon. The hell did he think would happen? It was just there to have the scene of stick boy murdering some dudes, so Picard basically killed them all with his idiocy. Who wrote this nonsense? Especially since I felt like the bar patrons were absolutely justified in their reaction and their calling him out. They made Picard a senile murderer...

I don't necessariliy think they were justified, and the responsibility for the killings lies entirely with Space Legolas. But yes, he had to know it would end badly for him (he had no way of knowing Space Elf would rescue him.). Ridiculous and pointless, indeed. Of course, we have to have at least one action scene per episode (easier than writing a coherent narrative)... so Space Samurai to the rescue.

And it's episode 4 of 10, and we're still  at the recruiting stage...

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And the Seven arrival reminded me of the new Star Wars movies in the worst possible way. Conveniently running into people the viewers feel nostalgic about for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

I don't mind Seven as I expect she'll fit into the Borg plot (of course it's a case of Small Universe Syndrome), but I'm very tired of new characters being introduced at the last minute of an ep.

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And the preview of the next one...

Yeah, Las Vegas in Space. Awesome. Not.

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 I felt glad every time they cut to the Borg Cube plot.

I thought these scenes were lame and pointless. Also, the Narek actor is not good.

The beheading, as well as the weird Narek/ Rizzo scenes gave me GoT vibes. And that's not a compliment.

 

ETA: ETA: Oh, nd the warrior nuns only pledge themselves to lost causes! I guess that helps keeping their numbers low...