Star Trek: Picard

[Jaxom 1974]

They should just stick with the E then.  The Online game chronology should stay away from true Canon.

[Toth]

9 hours ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

They should just stick with the E then.  The Online game chronology should stay away from true Canon.

Why? So far the "true canon" only intends to be vaguely miserable while the book canon seems to be decidedly miserable (from what I have heard, I never read any Star Trek books myself). Star Trek Online may be far away from good writing, but their world-building had always been solid. And the game-changing Iconian War arc doesn't need to hide from DS9. Maybe I just like the idea of all factions of the Star Trek universe banding together to fight off a cataclysmic threat. But I'm not under the delusion that they would ever lift STO itself to canon, but rather just pick pieces they like, like for example the design of the Enterprise F. Which I like very much and would love to see in a life action show.

And hey, during the STO continuity the Enterprise E was still active during the time of Picard. It's rather these comic writers who picked something neat from STO and moved it to a far earlier point of time. In fact an Odyssey class USS Verity during the Hobus supernova doesn't make much sense given how advanced the ship is (it is essentially built around the quantum slipstream drive introduced in Voyager that makes it insanely fast).

[Mindwalker]

Oh, how I wish the sight of a space ship model could make me happy! Disclaimer: Rant ahead!

While I still love Picard and his two housemates, this show has serious pacing issues (not unlike DISC), wayyy too much and too clunky exposition (was that flashback Raffi/ Picard really necessary?); very unnatural dialogue (e.g. Raffi to Picard), and when they finally show, not tell, it's tired clichés, e.g. a macho man who's totes cool with a blade in his shoulder! Wtf?!

I mean, I'm cool with a ragtag band of misfits, but could you be a bit more original, please?! We have whining, self-pitying Raffi, who blames all of her misfortune on Picard; we have Rios, who I'm sure will turn out to just hide his manpain over the captain he couldn't save (maybe also his lover, if female) behind his rough, oh-so-manly outer shell... *yawn*... Number One would be more exciting to me. And apparently Picard, totally ooc, once did a Kirk on Starfleet, and his bluff failed. And apparently, he's been hiding and not-living ever since. 20 years wasted, and now he is ill...

Good grief. The only crew I like, so far, is the "British" EMH! Mabe he could switch personalities with Rios.. Speaking of whih, how vain can you be to make your EMH look like yourself?! The scientist ist ok, if a little boring so far, but maybe she's now a spy for Oh, which could make her more interesting.

Why can't Laris and whatshisname go on adventures with Picard?! They certainy have the skills.

I just hope that mystery is worth the wait for us....

/ Rant over

The ending was nice, though. Engage! And the musical nod.

[Toth]

1 hour ago, Mindwalker said:

While I still love Picard and his two housemates, this show has serious pacing issues (not unlike DISC), wayyy too much and too clunky exposition (was that flashback Raffi/ Picard really necessary?); very unnatural dialogue (e.g. Raffi to Picard), and whn they finally show, not tell, it's tired clichés of macho man who's totes cool with a blade in his shoulder. Wtf?!

I agree on the flashback. It was especially infurianting because it didn't explain anything and remained stupidly vague on why she lost her job and became the always angry drug junkie we see. The shrapnel scene was also weird and unnecessary, but I must admit I strangely liked the captain. His deal seems to be pretending to be a tough lovable scoundrel while he internally constantly squees in joy that Jean-Luc Picard is on his ship. I must admit I also liked the deal with his holographic helper. I think it has less to do with vanity, but rather that he intentionally keeps it like some kind of shoulder angel sarcastically shoving him to do the right thing. I think if properly handled he could be a solid audience surrogate for this dumb field trip. If the other characters were better though. The scientist seems like Tilly all over again, which really frustrates me. And I am really confused by the angry drug junkie.

Every time she calls Picard "JL" my toe nails bend backwards. What the hell is wrong with her? Since when has Picard allowed a First Officer to refer to him this casually (even back in the flashback!)? Or are we supposed to think that they had a fling going on? Picard? With his First Officer? Seriously?!? Picard who made it a point of not dating people under his command because it only leads to trouble? Picard whose main love interests aside Dr. Crusher had always been people he could geek out to about archeology? Does anyone here remember Vash? I just can't believe that this weird drug junkie OC would check any boxes of his interest, so why are we supposed to believe he is closer to this random stranger than any of his old crewmates?

Ugh... rant over. Sorry. Other than that I can't say the episode brought us much.

[Jaxom 1974]

9 hours ago, Toth said:

Why? So far the "true canon" only intends to be vaguely miserable while the book canon seems to be decidedly miserable (from what I have heard, I never read any Star Trek books myself). Star Trek Online may be far away from good writing, but their world-building had always been solid. And the game-changing Iconian War arc doesn't need to hide from DS9. Maybe I just like the idea of all factions of the Star Trek universe banding together to fight off a cataclysmic threat. But I'm not under the delusion that they would ever lift STO itself to canon, but rather just pick pieces they like, like for example the design of the Enterprise F. Which I like very much and would love to see in a life action show.

And hey, during the STO continuity the Enterprise E was still active during the time of Picard. It's rather these comic writers who picked something neat from STO and moved it to a far earlier point of time. In fact an Odyssey class USS Verity during the Hobus supernova doesn't make much sense given how advanced the ship is (it is essentially built around the quantum slipstream drive introduced in Voyager that makes it insanely fast).

As long as we accept that my disdain for the writing of the Online chronology and story is purely my opinion, we'll be fine.  

The game design of the F is fine.  It is. But if that design is going to be an easter egg like shout out in Picard, then let it be another ship.  Not the Enterprise right now.  I don't know if you even bring the Enterprise into the show right now, excepting they'll outsmart themselves and have it show up as a stinger in the season finale to have everyone speculate about it, kinda like Discovery did...

I actually prefer the novel chronology, post-Nemesis.  I think they did the best job pulling all the various threads of the series together into something larger and more cohesive. But again, my opinion.  

 

[Toth]

17 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

As long as we accept that my disdain for the writing of the Online chronology and story is purely my opinion, we'll be fine.

I actually prefer the novel chronology, post-Nemesis.  I think they did the best job pulling all the various threads of the series together into something larger and more cohesive. But again, my opinion.  

I think that's an absolutely understandable position to have. Like I said, I haven't actually read any books, so I can't exactly compare them myself. But I am right in the assumption that the novel-verse didn't have to deal with JJ Abrams shit of blowing Romulus up? Because the fallout of that was something the STO writers had to consider and I must say I regard them very highly for how they dealt with the entire backstory of the Romulan Republic.

Then again: That's what it boils down to, really. STO allows me to pick the best parts of worldbuilding they have done and incorporate them easily into my headcanon and ignore the parts where they dropped the ball (like how the Species 8472 storyline went absolutely nowhere). And on top of that I haven't really played the game at all anymore after the end of the Iconian War. I know that they have picked up the Temporal Cold War leftovers from Enterprise afterwards, then had reintroduced the Tzenkethi and apparently the Dominion is now a playable faction, but all that I haven't actively followed (or played anymore), so I'm not sure at all how the Galactic Union story continued. In fact all the STD stuff on their front page kinda pisses me off and prevents me from logging back in and go looking.

I can believe that if I had read the books first, I might easily consider them better. So... what exactly is it you like about them in contrast to STO?

[Werthead]

I think a big problem with both STO and the novel series is that they went seriously meta on the plot, which I think is a big mistake with Star Trek. Trek is always first and foremost about a ship having episodic adventures. You can the occasional big epic story, but I think trying to make everything a big epic story in Trek is a huge mistake. Best of Both Worlds had the impact it did because it was a very rare, big story with huge ramifications for the Federation, not because it was the norm. You also run into the problem of trying to one-up yourself and that can lead to some pretty stupid decisions; the novels blowing up the iconic DS9 and replacing it with a terrible design Gerry Anderson would have rejected for being too garish is probably the dooziest.

Something I'm also a bit bemused by - I'm replaying Starfleet Academy at the moment and might follow up with Bridge Commander - is how few of these Star Trek games have even bothered to try to replicate the feel of a Star Trek adventure, especially one that doesn't involve phasering and photon torpedoing everything in sight. I think there's maybe 15 episodes (out of 179) in TNG where the Enterprise fires its weapons, maybe a bit more in Voyager (a lot more in DS9, but they had a whole series of wars going on). It'd be cool to see a Trek game where you have to solve problems through dialogue or diplomacy. Maybe a kind of Fallout open world approach where you can solve problems multiple ways.

Quote

 

Speaking of whih, how vain can you be to make your EMH look like yourself

 

Dr. Zimmerman says hi.

[Mindwalker]

15 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Dr. Zimmerman says hi.

Oh, definitely. But Dr. Zimmerman is not on the show, thankfully.

[Toth]

37 minutes ago, Werthead said:

I think a big problem with both STO and the novel series is that they went seriously meta on the plot, which I think is a big mistake with Star Trek. Trek is always first and foremost about a ship having episodic adventures. You can the occasional big epic story, but I think trying to make everything a big epic story in Trek is a huge mistake. Best of Both Worlds had the impact it did because it was a very rare, big story with huge ramifications for the Federation, not because it was the norm. You also run into the problem of trying to one-up yourself and that can lead to some pretty stupid decisions; the novels blowing up the iconic DS9 and replacing it with a terrible design Gerry Anderson would have rejected for being too garish is probably the dooziest.

Fair enough. I can't deny that STO went the DS9 path of diving head first into politics and war stories, mostly to keep enough conflicts around so that every player can blow up hundreds of ships during their playthrough. That was especially silly early on, but at least under the light of the Iconian War this made sense. Basically every conflict you had to resolve by knocking a few heads together was ultimately revealed to be part of a large scheme to destabilize the galaxy to prepare for an invasion, so the whole galaxy being on fire all the time actually made sense narratively. But you are right that STO also forced itself to keep the pace going to an idiotic degree. I remember immediately after the Iconian War there came this uplifting "New Dawn" trailer promising a return to peace and exploration. That lasted basically for three episodes at most before the Temporal Cold War storyline slapped you into the face with more war and battles. I think in the long run the developers really crippled themselves when they killed the exploration missions. They were boring as they were, but could have been tweaked easily. And now I have read they also killed the Foundry (which, granted, was more offline than not during my last visit at the game). With that many limitations they have no choice but to churn out ever new "exciting" story chapters one-upping each other.

50 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Something I'm also a bit bemused by - I'm replaying Starfleet Academy at the moment and might follow up with Bridge Commander - is how few of these Star Trek games have even bothered to try to replicate the feel of a Star Trek adventure, especially one that doesn't involve phasering and photon torpedoing everything in sight. I think there's maybe 15 episodes (out of 179) in TNG where the Enterprise fires its weapons, maybe a bit more in Voyager (a lot more in DS9, but they had a whole series of wars going on). It'd be cool to see a Trek game where you have to solve problems through dialogue or diplomacy. Maybe a kind of Fallout open world approach where you can solve problems multiple ways.

Look up the old Micropose adventures. 25th Anniversary, Judgement Rites and A Final Unity. Those are basically exactly what you seek minus the open world aspect.

[Rippounet]

I'm kind of torn. On the one hand these latest episodes look nice and the acting is commendable (with Stewart still being far beyond everyone else in terms of performance). On the other hand there's still lots of exposition and I still feel that the plot moves slowly. Imho what took three episodes could "easily" have happened in two, or even one. So I'm left wondering if they really have a story to tell or if they're just stretching a very simple intrigue.

The problem with this type of show is whether there is a payoff in the end, or whether the show is to be enjoyed as is. As is, ST:Picard is okay-ish but obviously aimed at trekkies to begin with. If there's a payoff that's a different story.

[Werthead]

Yeah, that was episode was 42 minutes long but it felt we got through about 10 minutes worth of plot, which was really odd. I'm starting to think they should have upped the pace even if that meant we only got a 6-episode season.

On my Voyager rewatch I've gotten almost to the end of Season 3 and the episode where the ripped off the Silurians from Doctor Who but tried to pretend they didn't. Highly amusing.

[Jaxom 1974]

19 hours ago, Werthead said:

I think a big problem with both STO and the novel series is that they went seriously meta on the plot, which I think is a big mistake with Star Trek. Trek is always first and foremost about a ship having episodic adventures. You can the occasional big epic story, but I think trying to make everything a big epic story in Trek is a huge mistake. Best of Both Worlds had the impact it did because it was a very rare, big story with huge ramifications for the Federation, not because it was the norm. You also run into the problem of trying to one-up yourself and that can lead to some pretty stupid decisions; the novels blowing up the iconic DS9 and replacing it with a terrible design Gerry Anderson would have rejected for being too garish is probably the dooziest.

 

Isn't "big and epic" what's going on with Picard?

And I don't totally disagree about the novels and what they did with DS9, but the backdrop of the stories and the cold war aspect of the line I think was a great idea and should have lent itself to episodic television adaptation, but also would have allowed for proper Trek exploration stories also...

 

As for Picard, thinking it through some after episode three...I'm a bit irritated with the premise that ONLY Picard and this new XO of his wanted to save as many Romuland as possible.  I get the tragedy of the Mars attacks, but to have absolutely everyone else in Starfleet, and the Federation, suddenly decide they can't do anything about it?  Flying in the face of the characters we know.  Riker and Troi?  Bashir?  Dax?  Janeway?  

It doesn't track.

[Werthead]

2 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Isn't "big and epic" what's going on with Picard?

And I don't totally disagree about the novels and what they did with DS9, but the backdrop of the stories and the cold war aspect of the line I think was a great idea and should have lent itself to episodic television adaptation, but also would have allowed for proper Trek exploration stories also...

 

As for Picard, thinking it through some after episode three...I'm a bit irritated with the premise that ONLY Picard and this new XO of his wanted to save as many Romuland as possible.  I get the tragedy of the Mars attacks, but to have absolutely everyone else in Starfleet, and the Federation, suddenly decide they can't do anything about it?  Flying in the face of the characters we know.  Riker and Troi?  Bashir?  Dax?  Janeway?  

It doesn't track.

Picard was supposed to be a one-off limited mini-series, so that having a single storyline made more sense. Now it's an ongoing series, I'm more concerned about it. Discovery being so heavily serialised hasn't helped it at all.

As with the Romulan thing, I think it's more the case that Picard was the most senior Starfleet figure with real power and influence be arguing in favour of the evacuation. I'm sure billions of other Federation citizens had concerns as well, but most of them were relatively powerless. I'm assuming that Admiral Ross has passed away in the Trekverse (as usually happens to characters when their actors pass away), who was the other great advocate of the Romulan alliance, and of course Sisko is MIA. It'd be interesting to see if Janeway is still around and in Starfleet.

I also think it's likely that the Klingons had 0 interest in helping the Romulans and there were some in the Federation who saw the weakening and destruction of Romulus as being even desirable to wipe out a potential long-term threat to the Federation (and one notably much less weakened by the Dominion War than the Federation).

[Derfel Cadarn]

4 hours ago, Werthead said:

Yeah, that was episode was 42 minutes long but it felt we got through about 10 minutes worth of plot, which was really odd. I'm starting to think they should have upped the pace even if that meant we only got a 6-episode season.

On my Voyager rewatch I've gotten almost to the end of Season 3 and the episode where the ripped off the Silurians from Doctor Who but tried to pretend they didn't. Highly amusing.

Is that the eco-villain race?

how did the Sulu episode Flashback strike you? I was so looking forwadd to it, especially after the brilliant DS9 equivelent (Trials and Tribbleatuins) that I hated it. Such a waste of potential. They had Sulu and the Excelsior - and did a shitty ‘dream’ episode. And killed off a minor character who was chronologically shown to be alive later in Star Trek 6.

[Jaxom 1974]

3 hours ago, Werthead said:

 

As with the Romulan thing, I think it's more the case that Picard was the most senior Starfleet figure with real power and influence be arguing in favour of the evacuation. I'm sure billions of other Federation citizens had concerns as well, but most of them were relatively powerless. I'm assuming that Admiral Ross has passed away in the Trekverse (as usually happens to characters when their actors pass away), who was the other great advocate of the Romulan alliance, and of course Sisko is MIA. It'd be interesting to see if Janeway is still around and in Starfleet.

I also think it's likely that the Klingons had 0 interest in helping the Romulans and there were some in the Federation who saw the weakening and destruction of Romulus as being even desirable to wipe out a potential long-term threat to the Federation (and one notably much less weakened by the Dominion War than the Federation).

I get that.  But where is the rest of the Enterprise people?  Riker and Troi would be on Titan, but to think they wouldn't be right there with Picard...and I cannot fathom Picard taking a promotion to Admiral and leaving the Enterprise for another vessel...it was the flagship after all...

And I agree about the Klingons, but at the same time, Worf has exerted influence over the  High Council in the past when it didn't always jibe with Klingon preferences, at least it seemed that way during their Civil War and the during the Dominion War.  He did, after all, put Martok in the Chancellor seat.  If Picard, through Worf, wanted Klingon help, I think he might have gotten it...

[Toth]

34 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

And I agree about the Klingons, but at the same time, Worf has exerted influence over the  High Council in the past when it didn't always jibe with Klingon preferences, at least it seemed that way during their Civil War and the during the Dominion War.  He did, after all, put Martok in the Chancellor seat.  If Picard, through Worf, wanted Klingon help, I think he might have gotten it...

But to the degree to help the Romulans of all people? Even in STO canon the reaction of the Klingon High Council was rather "If you blow up, can we get your stuff?". And we have to remember, the Klingons apparently have been far regularly in conflict with the Romulans than the Federation ever was, with far more contested borders.

[Rippounet]

The in-universe explanation is credible and convincing imho and we might yet learn that many others imitated Picard and resigned in protest. Some might have even gone further for all we know. 

[felice]

11 hours ago, Toth said:

But to the degree to help the Romulans of all people?

Yeah. Worf even let a Romulan die rather than donate blood to save him, and I don't recall his attitude softening later. He wouldn't ever be an enthusiastic advocate for saving Romulans.

[red snow]

2 hours ago, felice said:

Yeah. Worf even let a Romulan die rather than donate blood to save him, and I don't recall his attitude softening later. He wouldn't ever be an enthusiastic advocate for saving Romulans.

My rewatch of next gen is really highlighting the hatred between romulans and Klingons. Don't forget in the example you mention the romulan chose to die rather than accept worf's blood too. So maybe even romulans would be reticent of receiving Klingon help? 

Is CBS streaming channel a monthly screening account in North America? If it is i guess it would explain why they want 8-10 episodes over 6 as it means people will pay for 3 months subscription rather than 1 month binge.

I'm ok with the enterprise characters dispersing. The federation is a big place and if they aren't all on one ship it's understandable they'd drift apart. It also makes a level of sense that Picard is working with more recent colleagues who appear to be earth bound. 

Do we know what happened to the enterprise? I can't remember what the last canonical details were? How many of the original crew would still be there vs having different jobs?

Hugh's appearance was a bit underwhelming for me as i thought there'd be more to him. Guess there is still time.

[RumHam]

2 hours ago, red snow said:

Do we know what happened to the enterprise? I can't remember what the last canonical details were? How many of the original crew would still be there vs having different jobs?

Well Tasha and Data died, Ro joined the Maquis, Wesley wandered off with the traveler, Troi and Riker got married and went to the Titan, Worf became Klingon ambassador to the Federation but then was inexplicably back on the ship for Nemesis. LaForge was working at the mars shipyards but I assume they didn't kill him off-screen. We don't know what happened to Dr. Crusher but apparently cut scenes from Nemesis establish she was going back to earth to run Starfeet Medical. 

So none, in all likelihood.