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Star Trek: Picard

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4 hours ago, Ran said:

And I always thought it was clear that Riker refused commissions because he wanted to be captain of the Enterprise, end of story. He wasn't going to sour over Picard holding it for ages (Picard was turning down promotions as well!), so he was just happy to be first officer of the grandest ship in the fleet.

I think Picard was different in that he was being asked to effectively retire from an active posting as captain of the flagship to run the academy, which was a desk job. The various "future episodes" show him as an active archaeologist or ambassador after leaving Starfleet, which suggests he wants to stay in a more active role. Although that does suggest he didn't accept a promotion to a fleet Admiral until after Nemesis, which feels like quite a long time for Starfleet to offer him the job given how many times he saved their skins. In fact, he doesn't get promoted to Admiral until after Janeway does.

In Riker's case I get him wanting to hold out for the Enterprise (he even says that in Best of Both Worlds), but the problem with that is that there was no indication that would happen in anything approaching a reasonable timeframe given that Picard wasn't showing any sign of moving on. In fact, it took fifteen years from Riker joining the Enterprise as Commander to being promoted to Captain of the Titan (based on the timeline, it looks like Picard accepted promotion to Admiral just a year or two later and left the Enterprise, which I'm sure Riker was amused by).

The impression I got was that Starfleet was starting to lose patience with Riker - Admiral Hanson even seems to be hinting that they'll stop offering Riker promotions if he turns down the Melbourne - but him helping save the entire Federation in Best of Both Worlds led to him being given special dispensation, which is fair enough and precedented by how Kirk's crew were treated in The Voyage Home, despite committing multiple massive crimes against Starfleet in the preceding film, since they'd also just saved Earth from destruction.

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Posted (edited)

Again, not canon, but the novels have a nice way of keeping Picard in the Captain's chair after he should have moved on by having him get wrapped up in a post Dominion War scandal over something Section 31 did...because he didn't stop it, essentially passively condoned the action, it's revelation costs him the chance of the admiralty, though the novels make it clear he's fine with it because he still wants to follow Kirk's advice from Generations...

Never mind, in the novels, again not canon, but even Riker has made Admiral...

 

Edited by Jaxom 1974

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Posted (edited)

Incidentally, that video highlights what I always thought was great about Chain of Command, that Jellico turned up and was a strict hard-ass, but he was also a pretty good captain, a good judge of character and actually got a lot of shit done. He got Troi in a proper uniform which Picard had failed to do for five and a half years by that point and recognised that Data was a great officer and gave him a field promotion (undone by Picard shortly afterwards, which felt rough). And yes, Riker was behaving like an idiot in that story.

ETA: Somehow, our old TNG rewatch thread is still extant on the server.

Edited by Werthead

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Posted (edited)

Not that Troi not wearing a uniform was somehow problematic...

The problem with Jellico was that he was a micro-managing martinet who focused on picayune details, to the detriment of crew morale, and he did so when his assigned duty was to negotiate with the Cardassians. I'm not sure what having the Engineering team tearing down the engines for minimal efficiency gains on the eve of potential conflict actually made any kind of sense in light of this except to assuage his own insecurities by reassuring himself he could bend the crew to his will.

That's the real reason he got the "villain" edit.

Edited by Ran

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What's Stardock's stance on Discovery then? If Riker's childish tantrum in that episode already warranted to consider him the worst First Officer, then I wonder what they are saying about a show where everyone is always ridiculously hostile to everyone else for no reason whatsoever.

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Neelix!   Tuvoc!    Remember that ep when they Joined and melded into one mass?   I don't see that hour of TV getting mentioned alongside Calypso.  What if in this Picard show alternate timeline maybe Voyager never fixed that debacle, because Harry Kim saw the combined... Neevoc... in the hallway and panicked and quickly jettisoned "It" into space, correctly fearing that the blob was contagious, like those Japanese balls that keep rolling and picking up everything they roll over, and Kim didn't want to be incorporated into something like that, so he spaced his crewmates (crewmass) to save himself.   Then, after a series of events, Tulix (the blob made of Neelix and Tuvoc) slams into the windshield of 7 of 9's ship.  She investigates, is sucked into the blob, and because of the two new identities freshly added to her collective, she redesignates herself as 7 of 11.   

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6 hours ago, Wolfgang I said:

 Data is the 2nd best but only because he is fully functional. 

Programmed in multiple techniques...

2 hours ago, Ran said:

Not that Troi not wearing a uniform was somehow problematic...

The problem with Jellico was that he was a micro-managing martinet who focused on picayune details, to the detriment of crew morale, and he did so when his assigned duty was to negotiate with the Cardassians. I'm not sure what having the Engineering team tearing down the engines for minimal efficiency gains on the eve of potential conflict actually made any kind of sense in light of this except to assuage his own insecurities by reassuring himself he could bend the crew to his will.

That's the real reason he got the "villain" edit.

I thought Jellico was great. The complaining from the likes of Geordi always struck me as terribly unprofessional. Four shifts probably would work better anyhow...

Otherwise I'm mystified by this "intelligence" discussion. I mean... Harry "read me like a book" Kim? He could hardly go more than a few episodes without getting into trouble largely due to his own haplessness (catching an alien sex disease, being tricked into thinking he was actually an alien all along, getting replaced by his double from a duplicate Voyager...). Also Picard was always *portrayed* as a Renaissance Man with wide and deep interests, whose idea of fun is reading a dusty old book on Risa or puzzling over Fermant's last theorem. 

I would watch Star Trek: Garak though.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Aemon Stark said:

I thought Jellico was great. The complaining from the likes of Geordi always struck me as terribly unprofessional. Four shifts probably would work better anyhow...

Four shifts is not even what you do when you're preparing for combat operations. Three shifts is standard, two shifts tends to be what happens on a ship in active combat operations. I'm not sure how far the writers were thinking about it, though.

 

Edited by Ran

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I'm not entirely sure how the plot fucking with someone is a commentary on their intelligence. If that's the standard than there's maybe four or five people across the series who aren't idiots.

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Well I don't think the... bizarre situations Harry found himself in generally reflected his intelligence. But those were also most of the Harry-centric episodes, so I'm straining to see how green Ensign Kim > Picard. 

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2 minutes ago, Aemon Stark said:

Well I don't think the... bizarre situations Harry found himself in generally reflected his intelligence. But those were also most of the Harry-centric episodes, so I'm straining to see how green Ensign Kim > Picard. 

Maybe you need to explain more, cause I can't see how any of those reflect his intelligence. Harry's an idiot for catching a disease? Even though people in Trek sleep with aliens all the time? He got tricked? Even though that involved people literally altering his memories and DNA? He was replaced by a duplicate? Was he supposed to both divine that the duplication would happen and that that section of the hull would blow out at precisely the time he was there?

As for whether he's smarter than Picard, I'd be hesitant to try and gauge intelligence in such a matter given on one hand as you say we've got a guy "whose idea of fun is reading a dusty old book on Risa or puzzling over Fermant's last theorem." (insert joke about Fermant's last theorem having been solved by us, and we're not a society who teaches 6 year olds calculus) and the other being a guy who designs entirely new propulsion systems, astrometric labs, and shuttles.

Is Harry smarter than Picard? Well do I need help with an engineering problem or a diplomacy problem?

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, Ran said:

Four shifts is not even what you do when you're preparing for combat operations. Three shifts is standard, two shifts tends to be what happens on a ship in active combat operations. I'm not sure how far the writers were thinking about it, though.

 

I have to agree with Wert.  I rewatched “Chain of Command” recently and while Jellico did come off as an ass he was not a bad captain.  His personality didn’t gel with Riker’s.  Had Riker, as his first officer, pushed people to get on the new captain’s page there would have been less overall grumbling from other officers like Geordi.  

Traditionally, it’s the XO who is the Asshole.  Riker’s unwillingness to do the job forces Jellico to be an ass.

Edited by Ser Scot A Ellison

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13 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Traditionally, it’s the XO who is the Asshole.  Riker’s unwillingness to do the job forces Jellico to be an ass.

I can see that interpretation, but it clearly cuts against the intent of the writers. Their intent was that Jellico overstepped by attempting to change ship culture on what was a temporary command, ship culture presumably shaped by the regular captain to his taste, then proceeded to mismanage the crew, and  finally distracted them and himself from his actual task (negotiating with the Cardassians).

He was a good captain, no doubt. So was Captain Bligh, by most accounts.

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2 minutes ago, Ran said:

I can see that interpretation, but it clearly cuts against the intent of the writers. Their intent was that Jellico overstepped by attempting to change ship culture on what was a temporary command, ship culture presumably shaped by the regular captain to his taste, then proceeded to mismanage the crew, and  finally distracted them and himself from his actual task (negotiating with the Cardassians).

He was a good captain, no doubt. So was Captain Bligh, by most accounts.

What the writers gloss over is that it is the Captain’s prerogative as to how the ship to run.  It is the XO’s job to bring that to fruition without undermining the Captain.  Riker was undermining Jellico from the moment he stepped onto the ship.  

Riker assumed Picard’s transfer was to be temporary.  That’s a terrible assumption to make.  

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

What the writers gloss over is that it is the Captain’s prerogative as to how the ship to run. 

This again runs into the issue that you're applying 20th century military standards to an organization that is not exactly military in the same way. It has many of the trappings, but it's fairly clear Rodenberry and co saw it as somewhat "squishier", to use an inelegant word. Jellico, a martinet, is out of step with the more open and collaborative Federation where fraternization among the ranks is not just accepted but encouraged, a psychiatric counselor has a regular role in decision making, etc.

His approach was at odds with what what the entire crew (excepting maybe Data) seemed to think was normal or understandable. Either the crew of Starfleet's flagship are to be read as a bunch of lazy, pampered fools... Or perhaps it's Jellico in the wrong, doing things that are antiquated.

 

Edited by Ran

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Just now, Ran said:

This again runs into the issue that you're applying 20th century military standards to an organization that is not exactly military in the same way. It has many of the trappings, but it's fairly clear Rodenberry and co saw it as somewhat "squishier", to use an inelegant word. Jellico, a martinet, is out of step with the more open and collaborative Federation where fraternization among the ranks is not just accepted but encouraged, a psychiatric counselor has a regular role in decision making, etc.

 

Perhaps.  Openly questioning the Captain or a superior officer in front of other subordinates is still frowned upon.  See, Riker’s reaction to Commander Shelby in “Best of Both Worlds”.

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11 minutes ago, Ran said:

I can see that interpretation, but it clearly cuts against the intent of the writers. Their intent was that Jellico overstepped by attempting to change ship culture on what was a temporary command, ship culture presumably shaped by the regular captain to his taste, then proceeded to mismanage the crew, and  finally distracted them and himself from his actual task (negotiating with the Cardassians).

He was a good captain, no doubt. So was Captain Bligh, by most accounts.

I don’t think Jellico was purposefully trying to change the ship culture. He didn’t much care how Picard ran things - as he says to Picard, “the Enterprise is mine now.” I don’t think he mismanaged the crew either - they were the ones spending more time complaining and Riker felt that his job was more to bring said complaints to Jellico rather than executing his orders. 

Anyway maybe I just enjoy Ronny Cox too much. 

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50 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

Maybe you need to explain more, cause I can't see how any of those reflect his intelligence. Harry's an idiot for catching a disease? Even though people in Trek sleep with aliens all the time? He got tricked? Even though that involved people literally altering his memories and DNA? He was replaced by a duplicate? Was he supposed to both divine that the duplication would happen and that that section of the hull would blow out at precisely the time he was there?

As for whether he's smarter than Picard, I'd be hesitant to try and gauge intelligence in such a matter given on one hand as you say we've got a guy "whose idea of fun is reading a dusty old book on Risa or puzzling over Fermant's last theorem." (insert joke about Fermant's last theorem having been solved by us, and we're not a society who teaches 6 year olds calculus) and the other being a guy who designs entirely new propulsion systems, astrometric labs, and shuttles.

Is Harry smarter than Picard? Well do I need help with an engineering problem or a diplomacy problem?

The problem with Harry is that his character was poorly written and had little to no growth (let alone a promotion!) over 7 seasons. I can't think of many instances where he had to solve "engineering problems" but many where he had to talk through technobabble (a fine Voyager tradition if there ever was one). 

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36 minutes ago, Aemon Stark said:

The problem with Harry is that his character was poorly written and had little to no growth (let alone a promotion!) over 7 seasons. I can't think of many instances where he had to solve "engineering problems" but many where he had to talk through technobabble (a fine Voyager tradition if there ever was one). 

Having to live among copies of his original crew cramped his style I guess.

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