Why aren’t people intimidated by the dragons?

[Br16]

1 hour ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Dany was not demanding unconditional surrender.

In the scene where Tyrion negotiates with Qyburn, he said Dany demanded unconditional surrender. 

1 hour ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Surrender was clearly an option because they did actually surrender. Just far, far later than they should have. Clearly they presumed they would always have the option but refused it. Dany several times offers them this option from the first episode of season 7. Their refusal is not a rational decision.

It is implied that detachment represents the entire army and city. A microcosm. 

The gamble is not worth it because:

1. It failed and they all got killed

2. Why take that risk for Cersei to sit the Iron Throne?

3 Why is the outcome of Dany sitting the IT so terrible? If it was that terrible then they shouldn’t have surrendered at all.

 

Surrender only became an option when all the scorpions were destroyed, so they surrendered in a last ditch move to save their lives. While the gamble turned out spectacularly lousy, it was still a hard call before that moment. 

Cersei probably made big promises to her men-remember she prepaid Bronn several chests of gold and even promised him Riverrun, and she said to Jaime (after he returned from Gold Road battle) that she was going to pay her troops well with the Tyrell gold. 

So if they surrendered early, they won't get to cash in on the promises,  which could easily be enough to elevate many of them from men at arms to landed gentry. 

[Tyrion1991]

Cersei being able to walk away is not unconditional surrender. The Nazis knew there was nothing stopping the allies putting them against a wall with an actual unconditional surrender. Plus this is only after Cersei has refused multiple truces and offers.

Also, Dany sends ravens to Westeros with the clear message. Bend the knee and be accepted. She did this with Jon and the North/Vale. Not to mention, Yara, the Dornish and Tyrell’s. Dany would not have killed them had they done so on her entering Westeros.

Those scorpians were useless and only got a fluke kill with Rhaegal. They only killed Rhaegal because the show broke canon and because they have no idea how useless a scorpion would be as an anti aircraft weapon. 

They have no reason to assume such a gamble will work. Dragons and scorprians have existed for centuries. One dragon has been killed by a fluke hit by the Dornish. Whereas entire nations, armies and cities have been destroyed by dragons. Do the math. Killing them is clearly very difficult and their power unassailable.

It’s terrible world building. If Dragons are that powerful then you can’t have people act as if they aren’t because its convenient for the story. They should never have believed they could win.

They lost that badly that even had they killed Drogon the losses would have been apocalyptic. All the Iron Fleet and GC are gone in the first five minutes. So your gamble would still be getting a 90 percent casualty rate. Rational people do not sign up for that kind of suicide. This isn’t total war where you can just hurls your pawns into a fight.

Sane people would not take that gamble. It’s a foolish scheme doomed to failure from the start. You’re really saying you would buy a maverick scheme like that rather than doubt or question it?

If it felt obvious to us that Danys dragons made her nigh invincible in a conventional fight then how is it reasonable for the characters in this world to think otherwise? 

 

[Br16]

4 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Sane people would not take that gamble. It’s a foolish scheme doomed to failure from the start. You’re really saying you would buy a maverick scheme like that rather than doubt or question it?

If I was a Westerlord and Cersei wanted me to drag a bunch of scorpions into the field, then no. However, when I saw all those scorpions lined up on the wall, I was impressed. If I were a Westerlord, I would buy this scheme as King's landing could deploy the porcupine defense. With ballista everywhere delivering cross fire to drive the dragon away, while the fresh Golden Company mopped up Jon's battle weary army.

[Tyrion1991]

1 hour ago, Br16 said:

If I was a Westerlord and Cersei wanted me to drag a bunch of scorpions into the field, then no. However, when I saw all those scorpions lined up on the wall, I was impressed. If I were a Westerlord, I would buy this scheme as King's landing could deploy the porcupine defense. With ballista everywhere delivering cross fire to drive the dragon away, while the fresh Golden Company mopped up Jon's battle weary army.

 

As shown in the Bells these scorpions are slow to reload. Difficult to aim as they are so heavy and have a limited elevation. Note how Euron starts turning it one way only to find he has to turn it the other way. Plus the shots have a low velocity when they travel through the air. It’s difficult enough to hit a plane with massed machine gun and flak fire; let alone that kind of weapon. 

We the audience aren’t aware of these weaknesses until the episode but people in world should be as they are the ones operating them and the the historical precedent of Harrenhal.

How have they been able to “see” these Scorpio’s s? There is no TV they can only read about this plan before committing their armies. You know that one person has three dragons that are proven to be immeasurably powerful and untested scorpions that you’ve never seen before and only have the Queens word that they work. Up until episode 4 there is nothing to suggest they can defeat Dany in the field. 

Most sane peoples money would be on the dragons. Cersei is reliant on these people supporting her and their support is premised upon them being stupid and irrationally supporting a ridiculous plan. 

I refuse to believe that you in the same situation would have backed Cersei in that war. 

Dany should have easily won the war in season 7. If her dragon was that powerful the entire time nobody should ever have dreamed of fighting her. It took massive contrivance that the Iron Fleet was not destroyed and that the Lannister army was not wiped out long before they ever reached their destinations.

 

 

 

 

 

[Br16]

12 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

As shown in the Bells these scorpions are slow to reload. Difficult to aim as they are so heavy and have a limited elevation. Note how Euron starts turning it one way only to find he has to turn it the other way. Plus the shots have a low velocity when they travel through the air. It’s difficult enough to hit a plane with massed machine gun and flak fire; let alone that kind of weapon. 

But when you've got scores of scorpions vs a limited amount of dragons with a shortage of riders, it is still a fair gamble. Moreover, dragons are pretty slow when they bank and need to get in close range for the dragon fire to be effective. Dany only won because she tried that high risk stuka dive method nobody knew she could do. 

12 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

I refuse to believe that you in the same situation would have backed Cersei in that war. 

 

If I were a Westerlord Bannerman, I would feel that the combination of oath duty and the preponderance of potential success given by the scorpions would still have caused me to honor the oath. Also, as long as Cersei (the ranking Lannister) had not fled the city, I would feel confident that the chance was good.